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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 99

post #2941 of 8052
I remember being elated when I got my replacement JVC RS40 a couple of years back. I had racked up 2-300 hours on the first one by the time the second arrived (AVS replaced it because of bad convergence, but there was a substantial delay getting the replacement). At that time, the first RS40 had already begun to ghost badly. I was happy to report in the original comparison thread that the second RS40 had very little ghosting. A couple of hundred hours later, it was deja vu all over again. smile.gif When I read JVC's claims that it had improved ghosting with the second gen projectors, I ordered an RS45. But the 3D sucked - really sucked - and the ghosting controls never did anything. From what I've seen of screen shots from this generation, it looks like JVC returned more to its first gen formula, sacrificing contrast for the sake of ghosting and providing ghosting controls that actually do something. Pardon me if I'm skeptical, but I expect to hear the same familiar ghost stories after users get a few hundred hours on their lamps. Only time will tell.

The JVC panels remain the same this year, so I don't expect performance to be that different. As Jason says, the only real fix for ghosting is probably going to involve a major do-over of the technology. Even my Epson 6010 has substantially more ghosting at 2,000 hours, although I'd rate it right now as better than my JVCs at 200 hours (better than the RS45 when the lamp was NEW). As a matter of fact, I'm satisfied enough with the Epson 6010 as both a 2D and 3D projector that I'm still holding to my plan to wait for the Red laser projector before I buy again. I'd have to read about something more than the incremental improvements this year's models seem to have achieved to change my mind.
post #2942 of 8052
Thanks Zombie (Jason) that is the reason why I decided to stick to my RS45 with great converegence and focus. for 2D. I have tried the new emitter and many glasses work with it including the $20 Samsung. I would also guess that the Panasonic and other 2012 glasses would also work. The problem is ghosting. I put on Sammy again and I could not watch it. I have been playing around with the Benq W1070 and while it is no match in any way with the JVC or most any other $3000 plus projector for 2D it is a great option for those who can place it for 3D. It is really a pleasure to watch 3D without ghosting and with enough brightness. The 1070 is also nice for sports or casual viewing since the lamp can last up to 6,000 hours. It has received good reviews and will worth for those who can place it. It will not work with HP screens as has been pointed out.

I also feel that next year we will see big changes from JVC and others.
Edited by rwestley - 1/11/13 at 5:15pm
post #2943 of 8052
Guys, I'm not trying to convince anyone that this year's JVC projectors are better (or even on par with) the Sonys, Epsons, and Benqs. All I'm saying is that reading this thread gives one the impression that JVC 3D is completely unwatchable. For my needs (where I fully expect to watch significantly more 2D than 3D), I chose the JVC completely aware of its 3D limitations. I was expecting far, far worse 3D performance than what my RS4810 is putting out. In fact, the pre-firmware RS46 ghost-fest was what I was prepared for. When my 4810 arrived, I was thrilled to see how much better the 3D was. I'm not saying it's awesome or the end-all, be-all of 3D. But it is certainly adequate, if not downright good. I guess the thread set my expectations pretty low, and I was surprised at how much the 4810 wound up exceeding them. cool.gif

Put it this way...I won't be ashamed to have my friends come over to watch a 3D movie on my JVC. I'm sure they'll be blown away by the picture quality (because they won't have seen anything better)...and that's more than I expected to say about the JVC's 3D.
post #2944 of 8052
Thanks again for taking all the subjective talk out of the equation Zombie with those shots which speak VOLUMES. wink.gif Reduced ghosting................and also reduced brightness, contrast and detail. Lateral move at best this year all things considered for JVC as far as 3d goes. Like you mention, a complete overhaul is needed to get REAL 3d improvements for the 2014 models.

I am going to Cedia this year since it is in my backyard and am looking forward to see if JVC brings this much needed overhaul for 3d. Honestly though now that I have the 7000, my interest in JVCs 3d has plummeted quite a bit. Having a machine with zero ghosting, zero flicker, better motion/FI in 3d and good brightness, my only real motivation for better 3d from JVC is so I could go back to a single projector solution. Going back to one projector would be nice in a sense I suppose, but running 2 projectors actually has some nice advantages in the fact that you can split up the bulb hours and I can save the JVC 45 for what it is truly meant for, 2d movies. My main motivation seeing the JVCs at Cedia is still 2d in light of all this. IF they do an overhaul though, I would also love to see lag time cut in half or better if possible. FI in 3d also needs to be added to not only the JVCs (It would be great if the FI could be even further refined in general to get it on par with the BenQ FI), but the Epson as well as this is such a great feature to have for 3d IMHO. Should be interesting and I am already looking forward to September!
Edited by Toe - 1/11/13 at 5:30pm
post #2945 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I've spoken to several experienced calibrators who have seen the new JVC glasses on the X55/RS4810, there is no day/night difference between the other glasses out there. They also agree there has been a compromise between brightness and ghosting. The lumen output #'s are a fact, we really can't dispute them. The RS46 (pre-firmware) was nearly 400+ lumens brighter than the 4810, but at the expense of ghosting. Get rid of the ghosting, lower the lumen output.

Having owned the RS40, RS50, RS55 and calibrated the RS46 (pre-firmware) and RS4810, I can see first hand all the changes that have been made since the 1st gen was released in 2010. There is more than a decrease in lumen out. The overall PQ has changed. There is overall less image depth and detail. The photos clearly show something had to be compromised in order to reduce the ghosting.

We're not saying to not enjoy what you have. The thread is here for granular comparisons of the current projectors and of course all feedback is welcome. The goal is to stay as objective as possible.


RS46 (pre-firmware) first, RS4810 second.

btw, I love my JVC RS55's 2D PQ. I got lucky with a killer sample (convergence and focus is near perfect) and haven't seen anything yet I'd prefer to replace it with for 2D.

I have to believe at this point a full ground-up rebuild in coming in 2013. Each year, the other projector manufacturers are taking 3D to the next level and I doubt they are standing still. I know if we rounded up the troops to see the 4810 / HW50 / Epson 5020 in direct shootout, there is no doubt which 2 projectors will come out on top.
Zombie, I'd love to post-firmware RS46 pics to compare to those you posted. I can't believe how soft the RS4810 looks in your pics. I watched a bit of the Avengers in 3D on my 4810 and it was nothing if not razor-sharp. Go figure...it makes me wonder if something was up with the 3D on the 4810 you sampled (although I realize that's highly unlikely).

Oh well, my 4810 is going to have to last me for a few years, so by the time I'm ready for an upgrade, we'll all have holographic glasses-free 3D projectors and will reflect on how quaint the old days were. wink.gif
post #2946 of 8052
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bardog View Post

Hi zomie
If you permit me .. Where did you get these wonderful lamps? I looked it up in the Internet and did not find it frown.gif ... Please could you tell me where I get them.

I plan to make the darkness in the ceiling of my room

that light used to be white. It's an inexpensive lamp from Lowes (click here) that I painted black. I used high temperature BBQ paint since these lights get hot with a 50 watt lamp. So far the paint has held up with no problems.

ceiling.jpg

ceiling1.jpg
post #2947 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post

I just calibrated the Sony HW50 in Low Lamp mode.
After calibration it went from 12,30fL to 18,60fL on my 120"screen.
It is a perfect projector to calibrate as well.
Everything stay's at place while going from Greyscale to CMS and back for check.
What a great pleasure to do with this unit.

I was planning on keeping it in High Lamp mode but since this will save a lot of Lamplife, I can now brighten the projector in at least three stages while lamp ages while picture keeps great.
If it is going too dim I'll go to High Lamp Mode and Limited Iris, and than Full Iris whit a perfect DeltaE.
Picture keeps 100% perfect this way through the entire lamplife.

I was stunned how good this projector looked in 3D.
Everything works while watching 3D on this projector and it is amazing to experience.
No way I'm going to the cinema now I have this projector here..
Motion Enhancer and Iris in 3D is fantastic.
This is just what I missed on the TW9000W.
It is time Epson is putting FI in their next Gen projector.

Is the Buzzing sound during 3D solved or is that something that belongs to the HW50.

Hello how did you calibrate it, is it ISF Calibration or some basic settings can you please give some extra info
post #2948 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

I listed his measurements for best mode for each projector in 2D and the 1000ES was brighter than the 50ES and twice as bright as the Epson.

You can't compare zombie's measurements to Art's because they aren't in the same environment and don't have the same throw, zoom, screen etc. That's why I'm going by Art's because the environment is the same and he measured all of them under the same circumstances.

If zombie had a new 1000ES and calibrated it in his room it would probably be higher than what Art got also.

IIRC, the low brightness in 3D of the VW1000 is caused by long blanking times to reduce ghosting and it thus drops A LOT when going from 2D to 3D. The new HW50 has new technology that allows shorter blanking times without increasing ghosting and is significantly brighter in 3D even though less bright in 2D. I think this also applies to the competition, i.e. that they have less of a 3D brightness drop than the 1000.
post #2949 of 8052
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

IIRC, the low brightness in 3D of the VW1000 is caused by long blanking times to reduce ghosting and it thus drops A LOT when going from 2D to 3D. The new HW50 has new technology that allows shorter blanking times without increasing ghosting and is significantly brighter in 3D even though less bright in 2D. I think this also applies to the competition, i.e. that they have less of a 3D brightness drop than the 1000.

several members measured the 1000 @ ~1000 lumens in 3D. This is about the same output as the HW50.
post #2950 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

For those looking for a visual treat to show off the new projector, get a hold of 'Samsara'. It's the same director who made Baraka.

The detail and clarity of this bluray is excellent. There is some hope left for the aging Bluray.

check out some technical details of the transfer on their site:

SAMSARA is one of only a handful of feature films, including its predecessor Baraka, to be shot in the 70mm format in the last forty years.

The 70mm to digital conversion process required that each frame be scanned at 8k resolution, creating a massive data file (in excess of 20 terabytes!) which was then reduced in size to create the final film. The filmmakers extensively tested this method to confirm the benefits of oversampling in the scanning of film to digital. The result is an unparalleled viewing experience with extraordinary levels of detail, clarity, and vibrance.

This method was originally pioneered in the creation of BARAKA's acclaimed Blu-ray DVD, and has since become a widely adopted industry practice. The achievement of the BARAKA Blu-ray marked the first time 70mm analog quality was successfully introduced into a digital format.


JVC RS55 - eshift, MPC @ 2

JVC-RS55.jpg

JVC-RS55-1.jpg

JVC-RS55-2.jpg

JVC-RS55-3.jpg

JVC-RS55-4.jpg

JVC-RS55-5.jpg

JVC-RS55-6.jpg

JVC-RS55-7.jpg

JVC-RS55-8.jpg

JVC-RS55-9.jpg

JVC-RS55-10.jpg

JVC-RS55-11.jpg

JVC-RS55-12.jpg

JVC-RS55-13.jpg


can you post these same shots using the RS45 and Epson 5020?



thanks
post #2951 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by domingos38 View Post

can you post these same shots using the RS45 and Epson 5020?



thanks

For what reason? You can't gain much, other than color accuracy from these images posted here. And even that is a long shot between the camera taking the photo, editing software, and your own monitor. Everyone needs to take these shots with a grain of salt as they do not reveal much about picture quality.
post #2952 of 8052
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

For what reason? You can't gain much, other than color accuracy from these images posted here. And even that is a long shot between the camera taking the photo, editing software, and your own monitor. Everyone needs to take these shots with a grain of salt as they do not reveal much about picture quality.

exactly, it was just to show some great footage that will look excellent on any of these projectors. It's amazing what can be done with a quality transfer to BD.

I'll pull the images so it doesn't slow down the page.
post #2953 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

exactly, it was just to show some great footage that will look excellent on any of these projectors. It's amazing what can be done with a quality transfer to BD.

SOLD! Just burned up a gift card and it is on the way. smile.gif How is the audio? I remember being impressed with the audio on Baraka and I assume the audio is great here as well?
post #2954 of 8052
The audio is fantastic. Great 8 channel 24bit 96khz mix. There's actually a ~15 minute documentary on how the audio track was made included on the BD.
post #2955 of 8052
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

SOLD! Just burned up a gift card and it is on the way. smile.gif How is the audio? I remember being impressed with the audio on Baraka and I assume the audio is great here as well?

mark is always busting chops on BD, but these are examples of how it could be done right if they wanted to. I would welcome a 'superbits' bluray where they cut out all the extras I never watch and just give us a higher bitrate + better sampling to begin with.

I wish everything was shot on 70mm, scanned to 8K then processed to the BD.

The audio is good, but the visuals are intense. you don't know what to expect in the next scene. Some amazing, some is disturbing.
post #2956 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

mark is always busting chops on BD, but these are examples of how it could be done right if they wanted to. I would welcome a 'superbits' bluray where they cut out all the extras I never watch and just give us a higher bitrate + better sampling to begin with.

I wish everything was shot on 70mm, scanned to 8K then processed to the BD.

The audio is good, but the visuals are intense. you don't know what to expect in the next scene. Some amazing, some is disturbing.

Looking forward to it! This title somehow went completely under the radar for me so I really appreciate the heads up.

I would be all over "superbit" type blu ray releases as well. I could count on my right hand the times I have actually watched the extras as I just have no interest in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The audio is fantastic. Great 8 channel 24bit 96khz mix. There's actually a ~15 minute documentary on how the audio track was made included on the BD.

cool.gif
post #2957 of 8052
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Looking forward to it! This title somehow went completely under the radar for me so I really appreciate the heads up.

I would be all over "superbit" type blu ray releases as well. I could count on my right hand the times I have actually watched the extras as I just have no interest in general.
cool.gif

I use the Mica 950 media player for most of the content playback. It has a 'direct' play which makes it easy to start playing the movie immediately without being held hostage by the opening BD title, previews, etc.

I recently finished my new storage server. There are 8 3TB red drives, hardware RAID 6 + a 256 GB OCZ Vertex 4 for the boot drive. When the system is idle, it's draws ~100 watts. Under full disk load, it spike to 116, but still respectable considering how many disks are in this system. If a drive goes offline, I get an email. pretty cool!

fileserver1.jpg


fileserver2.jpg

fileserver.jpg
post #2958 of 8052
That is impressive Zombie! I love the thought of having my library at the tips of my fingers. Direct play sounds fantastic as well. Maybe HTPC will be the next thing I tackle as far as HT goes once I recoup from the latest 7000, Mini, etc.....spree. You are becoming a bad influence on my wallet in the best possible way.......... tongue.gif
post #2959 of 8052
The most surreal 3D I've seen (as far as immersion) is still in the game X3: Albion Prelude (same as Terran Conflict).


Don't get me wrong, it's not necessarily the best 3D experience overall (just a game after all), but it makes it feel like you are floating in space and I'm still looking for other 3D stuff (games or movies) with this same level of immersion. The Benq is definitely missing some contrast for this game, but at least it's playable and easier on the eyes than the JVC was in 3D.

Although I still don't find 3D as easy on the eyes as 2D, but the Benq makes it bareable.
Edited by coderguy - 1/12/13 at 12:17pm
post #2960 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

Hello how did you calibrate it, is it ISF Calibration or some basic settings can you please give some extra info

ISF-Calibrated.
I1Pro G2 and Calman 5.
The HW50 is a very stable machine to calibrate.
After doing the greyscale and CMS, I had to higher brightness 2 steps.
After re-messuring, everything was the same.
Normally when I do CMS it will change a bit on the Greyscale again and otherwise too.
Not with the HW50.
It is a real pleasure to calibrate.
Edited by Matthieu - 1/12/13 at 2:39pm
post #2961 of 8052
What sort of calibrated lumens are people getting on the hw50? Around 1000? Or more like 1200?
post #2962 of 8052
Art over at Projector Reviews got ~1000 lumens after calibration. :

Zoom out: 1109
Mid-zoom: 1044
Zoom in: 997
post #2963 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post


I would be all over "superbit" type blu ray releases as well. I could count on my right hand the times I have actually watched the extras as I just have no interest in general.
cool.gif

...Or since they like to add 2 or 3 additional discs anyway, how about just making one of those the special features disc instead and then have the lone mega-super-bit one.
post #2964 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Art over at Projector Reviews got ~1000 lumens after calibration. :

Zoom out: 1109
Mid-zoom: 1044
Zoom in: 997
Some people seem to get more (or less) lumens that art sometimes. Not sure why. Must be combo of different setting, equipment, etc.
post #2965 of 8052
Most likely how old the bulb is. He gets review units so there may already be over 100 hours on the bulb when he receives it.
post #2966 of 8052
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post

ISF-Calibrated.
I1Pro G2 and Calman 5.
The HW50 is a very stable machine to calibrate.
After doing the greyscale and CMS, I had to higher brightness 2 steps.
After re-messuring, everything was the same.
Normally when I do CMS it will change a bit on the Greyscale again and otherwise too.
Not with the HW50.
It is a real pleasure to calibrate.

I thought the HW50 was one of the easiest projectors to calibrate from what i've seen so far. greyscale and gamma tracking was excellent.
post #2967 of 8052
Thanks Zombie for the info on Samsara. I just picked it up and the video is amazing. I spent 30 minutes in my local Best Buy looking for it and no one could find it even though they had 6 copies in stock. It was finally found in the front on a rack under new releases. B.B. is getting worse and worse and I would not be surprised to see it go under this year.
post #2968 of 8052
I cannot keep up with you guys. Today I just finished Art of Flight, was sitting in my collection forever. Those guys are just insane, made me feel like I am missing something out of life, but jumping out of a helicopter on a snowboard would only get me killed. The best part was them breaking the tree branch, that showed the true nature of their death wish (or tempting death). Definitely some great shots in Art of Flight, I had watched a little bit of it before, but finally got to sit through the entire thing.

Maybe all I am missing out of life is the Sony vw1000, but I'm not convinced, and I'm not going to pay that much for a PJ that will probably cost $5k used in 3-4 years.

Trying the Witcher 2 as I heard it's killer for 3D effects, but I'm not a big gamer anymore cause like most of us other middle-aged folks we feel a bit of repetition in any game these days from our younger days past, but I still like the visuals and will play a few here and there.
Edited by coderguy - 1/12/13 at 10:24pm
post #2969 of 8052
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallnick View Post

Some people seem to get more (or less) lumens that art sometimes. Not sure why. Must be combo of different setting, equipment, etc.

It depends on whether the contrast/HDMI setting is set to clip at 235, 245 or 255. There is quite a difference if using a 100% pattern and comparing the three settings. Plus tolerances on meters too of course.
post #2970 of 8052
The differences in the lumen output that people are seeing compared to Art has to do with a lot of factors, but the main ones are:

1- How far away the projector is mounted, and how it's mounted

2- The size of the screen it's projecting

3- The gain of the screen

Everyone has a different setup so that's why you see the difference in lumens on the same pj.

You have to compare the numbers based on the environment. If zombie sets up 3 pj's the exact same way and all things are equal and he gives you numbers for each, then you can make a determination based on his results. You can't necessarily use his results for one pj and compare it to someone else's results for a second pj though. Not without taking other factors into consideration.
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