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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 105

post #3121 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post


I recently saw HC9000 against JVC X-30. I liked HC9000 much more. Cleaner image, brighter colors, smoother motion. Totally comparable contrast. I can't say anything about sharpness though.

If the X30 was in Standard colour space mode then the colours would have been pretty close to rec709 anyway, so it might just be that you prefer oversaturated colours. No issue with this, but bare in mind that if you ever have a calibration done it will tend towards the colours you (should) have seen on the X30. Of course if the greyscale was off it will effect the colours too. I've no idea what the HC9000 colour gamut is like or whether it can be corrected (if it has a CMS?).
post #3122 of 8005
Thread Starter 
I was doing everything possible to avoid keystone which caused too many artifacts even with minor use.

I spent hours testing the various iris settings with my favorite scenes which includes a number of dark sci-fi clips. None of the settings were as convincing as the Epson 5020 or Sony HW50 and definitely not the JVC @ -11. In other words, I could get away without masks on 2:35:1 sci-fi with the other projectors, but would prefer masks with the 8000.

There's many good qualities to the DLP's (they are my top pick for 3D performance), but I haven't seen one yet in this price range that could be my main 2D projector since I prefer the darkest black floor possible.
post #3123 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

If the X30 was in Standard colour space mode then the colours would have been pretty close to rec709 anyway, so it might just be that you prefer oversaturated colours. No issue with this, but bare in mind that if you ever have a calibration done it will tend towards the colours you (should) have seen on the X30. Of course if the greyscale was off it will effect the colours too. I've no idea what the HC9000 colour gamut is like or whether it can be corrected (if it has a CMS?).
No, I prefer viewing my displays calibrated.

I am pretty much sure that what my eyes saw is supported by this.

JVC X30 spectral power distribution and color separation graph:



Mitsubishi HC9000D spectral power distribution and color separation graph:



HC9000D's CMS seems to be broken. But it's a small issue for HTPC users (or ones with the excessive money to buy external color processor).

P.S. I didn't mean that JVC's color is worse because it has less wide gamut. Both can extend beyond Rec.709. It's just how both projectors were set up that made JVC look considerably worse. Mitsu had much smoother picture.
P.P.S. For info Mitsubishi also has less input lag - 42 ms without activating frame interpolation, 98 ms with it. So, unlike JVC, it's quite usable for gaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I spent hours testing the various iris settings with my favorite scenes which includes a number of dark sci-fi clips. None of the settings were as convincing as the Epson 5020 or Sony HW50 and definitely not the JVC @ -11. In other words, I could get away without masks on 2:35:1 sci-fi with the other projectors, but would prefer masks with the 8000.

There's many good qualities to the DLP's (they are my top pick for 3D performance), but I haven't seen one yet in this price range that could be my main 2D projector since I prefer the darkest black floor possible.
Thanks a lot. Yeah, I feel your pain. I'm stuck with the choice of Mitsubishi HC5 vs. Sharp XV-Z17000 (two best values ATM, IMO). Despite weak black levels I really like the DLP look. Also, I want to experience that ultimate crosstalk-free experience.
You might try Sharp XV-Z30000 though, here it says the dynamic iris is actually usable:
Quote:
I did all of my viewing with Sharp’s auto iris (Iris2) engaged. Automatic (dynamic) irises can dramatically improve the peak (full-on/full-off or sequential) contrast ratio, but they don’t always do so without side effects, such as obvious pumping of the image brightness as the iris opens and closes. However, the XV-Z30000’s auto iris (Iris2) worked beautifully. The only times I thought I caught a hint of it operating turned out to be in the source material itself.

Edited by Elix - 1/21/13 at 12:36pm
post #3124 of 8005
I guess if you like 3D, gaming and the DLP 'punch' then it's not a hard decision, unless you also want the lowest black level as Zombie and I both do. I can't watch single chip DLP myself due to headaches and rainbows, which is a shame as I like certain qualities that DLPs have. Not sure what those 2D graphs show apart from the Mits looks even more oversaturated unless I'm mistaken. The spectral power distribution is interesting, but provided the internal filters and a suitable colour space option can provide a rec 709 gamut (or very near too) then it's more of academic interest.
post #3125 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Which is why it's probably a good idea to calibrate at 75% and let the 100% fall outside the dE target as 75% is more in line with typical content.

This is what I was doing before using the mini 3D. If you recall I was getting some erratic before/after readings. After I blacked out my ceiling, it seems much better now. I think I was getting reflections from the ceiling and HP screen.

The gamma setting topic always bring up various arguments. This may be wrong, but I like playing around with the darkness settings on the RS55 which makes minor changes at just the lower IRE. I'll pick a favorite dark sci-fi scene like the beginning of underworld evolution, tweak the setting to my liking and then leave it there for the rest of the movie.

I think this is a great feature they included in these models since it's easy to access in the menu and I can make quick changes depending on the content.
post #3126 of 8005
I like the feature, but I also think it might help if you could see the picture while adjusting it rather than the two black squares.
post #3127 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I like the feature, but I also think it might help if you could see the picture while adjusting it rather than the two black squares.

Does the X35 have the Dark Level control? The 40/45/X3/X30 does not have this, but they do have the Black Level control which is not the same thing. What you are describing sounds like the Black Level control.
post #3128 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I like the feature, but I also think it might help if you could see the picture while adjusting it rather than the two black squares.

I think we're confusing the different settings. The dark level controls i'm referring to allow the minor gamma changes to be made while watching live content.

I also like changing the 'film tone' setting as well. I can tweak these 2 settings in under a minute depending on the movie, but I generally leave the dark setting @ +4 which brings out some nice shadow detail without messing with the gamma settings.


jvc-darkness.jpg
post #3129 of 8005
I've got the X35, it only has the black level adjustment not the white one. When you go into the menu it brings up two black boxes. According to the manual you are supposed to raise it to the point where the right hand box is just visible IIRC. You can't see video while doing this, so I have to press OK then go out of the menu to see the test pattern or film I'm watching.
post #3130 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I've got the X35, it only has the black level adjustment not the white one. When you go into the menu it brings up two black boxes. According to the manual you are supposed to raise it to the point where the right hand box is just visible IIRC. You can't see video while doing this, so I have to press OK then go out of the menu to see the test pattern or film I'm watching.
Some JVCs have a Black Level adjustment. I am not sure how that differs from Brightness though. When I experimented with this back when I had the RS50 they both did the same thing. I was hopeful that black level was a fine adjust to Brightness but that is not the case (at least it wasn't on the RS50). I did send an email to JVC USA Support at that time asking for clarification of how they differ but it was ignored (unanswered).

The Dark Level control is what Zombie's post above your is describing. It works fine and only affects gamma in the portion of the curves that are shown. On this years models one can adjust RGB as well as W.
Edited by Geof - 1/22/13 at 10:46am
post #3131 of 8005
I have a couple of questions relative to this thread.

One--is there somewhere in this thread a "Cliff Notes" for the various projectors tested? I have read the whole thread and when trying to go back and find specific tests on the various projectors tested it is difficult to find anything other than the two on the first page.

Two-How bad is the motion blur with the JVC tested and how does the 2D lumens and PQ compare to the Sony and Epson?

Thanks a ton Zombie...you are a God!

My search for the correct pj for my application continues....
post #3132 of 8005
Thanks Geoff. I'll make sure mine is set to 0 then (it might be at +1 at the moment as it's a global setting I don't want it raising the black level).Though I'm sure I checked the black level using a 0% pattern and comparing it to 'hide' setting. redface.gif

I've just been busy sorting out buying some PMC speakers that I've been after for a long time (Wafer 1 on wall to use as side surrounds), so I'm slightly distracted at the prospect of getting these: I sold my old HD350 last week so the money just got transfered to the speakers. biggrin.gif
post #3133 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Some JVCs have a Black Level adjustment. I am not sure how that differs from Brightness though. When I experimented with this back when I had the RS50 they both did the same thing. I was hopeful that black level was a fine adjust to Brightness but that is not the case (at least it wasn't on the RS50). I did send an email to JVC USA Support at that time asking for clarification of how they differ but it was ignored (unanswered).

The Dark Level control is what Zombie's post above your is describing. It works fine and only affects gamma in the portion of the curves that are shown. On this years models one can adjust RGB as well as W.

Hi Geof,

When I tested this with the rs50, the black level controls was indeed the same as brightness, but with more granularity. So if for example 1 notch in brightness raises your black level and 1 notch in the other direction makes level 17 invisible, using the dark level control can help you finding the right compromise. Haven't had to try it on the rs45.
post #3134 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I think we're confusing the different settings. The dark level controls i'm referring to allow the minor gamma changes to be made while watching live content.

I also like changing the 'film tone' setting as well. I can tweak these 2 settings in under a minute depending on the movie, but I generally leave the dark setting @ +4 which brings out some nice shadow detail without messing with the gamma settings.
This is a great control. It got my low-end gamma exactly where I wanted it without having to muck around with custom gamma curves (that can be a bear to properly adjust on the JVCs).
post #3135 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Some JVCs have a Black Level adjustment. I am not sure how that differs from Brightness though. When I experimented with this back when I had the RS50 they both did the same thing. I was hopeful that black level was a fine adjust to Brightness but that is not the case (at least it wasn't on the RS50). I did send an email to JVC USA Support at that time asking for clarification of how they differ but it was ignored (unanswered).

The Dark Level control is what Zombie's post above your is describing. It works fine and only affects gamma in the portion of the curves that are shown. On this years models one can adjust RGB as well as W.

I found that if I raise brightness at all from 0 (for standard HDMI) that the black floor raises which seems to be the norm with the JVCs, but if I have the black level control at +1, I cant see any difference in my black floor either through the AVS709 test pattern for brightness or by doing the hide trick. Should we still leave this at 0?

I wish the 45/X35 had the Dark Level control as this sounds like a nice feature to have for quick and easy gamma tweaks on the low end.
post #3136 of 8005
I've got information that JVC's really have 240 Hz panel drive but only when Clear Motion Drive is off. Can anyone confirm? Also 60 Hz in Mode 1,2, 120 Hz in mode 3,4.
post #3137 of 8005
Elix, JVC is only using 120 Hz panels.
post #3138 of 8005
Dark Level control ~ adjusting 5% on the gamma.

AKA if you try Dark level Control, and then calibrate gamma flat, the result is as if the dark level control was not used at all.


Leave Dark Level control at 0 and make 2 gamma curves

One flat and one with a slightly raised 5%

There is no "perfect" way to get the shadow detail out of the JVC projectors.

Dark Level changes or slightly raised 5% looks great on "perfect" authored sources. (Animated films / Video Games / Movies were black is truly video level 16 black)

On a less then perfect movie where black in the picture is not a true video level 16 black, you will only be losing depth and contrast in the picture. (Easily seen in Across the Universe blu-ray)

The JVC needs a 1% adjustment control! JVC you listening? ?
Also firmware upgrade not a "new" machine purchase... lol.
Edited by SOWK - 1/22/13 at 12:48pm
post #3139 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Elix, JVC is only using 120 Hz panels.
Source, please?
post #3140 of 8005
AKA me... smile.gif (Also asked the JVC reps at Cedia last year)

You must not know me very well yet... lol.


Also there website...

They mention 120 Hz clear Motion Drive. No mention of 240 Hz panels.

They "would" have mentioned it, if they were using 240 htz. Its a selling point and a "reason" for old users to upgrade to the new models.
post #3141 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Hi Geof,

When I tested this with the rs50, the black level controls was indeed the same as brightness, but with more granularity. So if for example 1 notch in brightness raises your black level and 1 notch in the other direction makes level 17 invisible, using the dark level control can help you finding the right compromise. Haven't had to try it on the rs45.
Hi Manni
I know we talked about it at the time and I recall futzing with it a lot but I guess I didn't see (or don't recollect) the granularity part...that makes a lot of sense though. But I agree with Kelvin that the two back squares makes it harder than need be to adjust.

Thanks for the correction....!!

I'll have to look tonight as I'm not sure if the RS4810 has this control.
Edited by Geof - 1/22/13 at 8:26pm
post #3142 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I found that if I raise brightness at all from 0 (for standard HDMI) that the black floor raises which seems to be the norm with the JVCs, but if I have the black level control at +1, I cant see any difference in my black floor either through the AVS709 test pattern for brightness or by doing the hide trick. Should we still leave this at 0?

I wish the 45/X35 had the Dark Level control as this sounds like a nice feature to have for quick and easy gamma tweaks on the low end.
I'd say if you can't see it raising the black floor you're good to go.

FWIW, I find the Hide trick useful but to my eyes it's just easier to display a 0% pattern and adjust brightness while watching the screen. I can immediately discern if the luminance level changes that way (and one can rapidly switch brightness settings as well to see the effect)(but I also use the hide trick too). Unfortunately the black level control doesn't let us do that....
Edited by Geof - 1/22/13 at 1:36pm
post #3143 of 8005
I think the Dune streamers are the best out there right now. JMHO. But they don't do 3D.
post #3144 of 8005
They have a new model out that supports SBS one other form of 3D but no frame packed. Its a lower end model. I'm sure they will release a new flagship model that will support all types of 3D soon. I use the Dune HD 101 and push blu-rays and other content to it through a UPnP server with 20+ TB of movies/TV Shows. Works flawlessly. Probably one of the easiest ways out there to share media over your network.
post #3145 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

Zombie, are you using freeNAS on your server? I try to get a micca ep950 like yours but can't find it any where. What's the next best streamer to buy?

I was using FreeNAS but I recently switched over to a dedicated hardware RAID setup. I'm at ~70% of the 17TB capacity.

fileserver.jpg

fileserver2.jpg


The Hi-Media900B is still around. It's an identical version of the Mica 950, they can exchange firmware. I have players from both companies.

There is also the MED1000X3D which is gaining popularity. This the next one I am going to check out. Though they couldn't have picked a stranger shape for a media device..

These players aren't perfect, but they serve the exact function I am looking for. Instant, random access playback of my 2D and 3D BD library. My bluray players feel archaic in comparison. cool.gif
post #3146 of 8005
For me, I still like WHS.
I've been running 1 WHS box with 34T HDDs in Norco case and recently built another with Windows server 2012 essential in norco 24bay case as well. No issues with streaming Bluray ISO.
WD's Red HDD works better than Green with NAS system.
post #3147 of 8005
Thread Starter 
nice setup. I had some issues with the green drives in an old hardware raid 5 setup. I'm using the the 3TB red drives in my new rig. I was worried about the high DOA reports on amazon and newegg, but I got lucky and these drives are good.
post #3148 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

FWIW, I find the Hide trick useful but to my eyes it's just easier to display a 0% pattern and adjust brightness while watching the screen. I can immediately discern if the luminance level changes that way (and one can rapidly switch brightness settings as well to see the effect)(but I also use the hide trick too). Unfortunately the black level control doesn't let us do that....

@Geoff so you prefer running 0% patterns to bringing up AVSHD disc when setting up black level? Do you do that by naked eye not by meter?
post #3149 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Dark Level control ~ adjusting 5% on the gamma.

The JVC needs a 1% adjustment control! JVC you listening? ?
Also firmware upgrade not a "new" machine purchase... lol.

For Lumagen owners, they'll get the same results if they run 21pt grayscale and adjust luminance of 5% grayscale, right? Kevin benefits again with his X35. lol.

Yes. new firmware for unsaturated green as well! Don't say not possible.
Edited by freebits - 1/22/13 at 8:48pm
post #3150 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

nice setup. I had some issues with the green drives in an old hardware raid 5 setup. I'm using the the 3TB red drives in my new rig. I was worried about the high DOA reports on amazon and newegg, but I got lucky and these drives are good.

Have you ever checked out UnRAID? All the benefits of hardware raid but data isn't striped and you get full parity. It's not a free solution but the community is great.
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