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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 120

post #3571 of 8005
From owning the 5010 and now 5020...the 5020 is an improved 5010 in every way, 3d is brighter, cleaner, more sharp, smoother and detailed..I guess you have to see them both to understand?Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 Review
Edited by ackergwj - 3/18/13 at 7:31pm
post #3572 of 8005
I continue to be thrilled with the 5020's 3D performance compared to my JVC RS40. Last night it was PARANORMAN, and even at 12 feet wide it was bright enough (this is a fairly dark film) and ghost free.
I also ran some side by side shorts I have and it performed very well with them too.
The OPPO 103/5020 combo for 3D is shaping up very nicely for me so far.

S A M 33
post #3573 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by S A M 33 View Post

I continue to be thrilled with the 5020's 3D performance compared to my JVC RS40. Last night it was PARANORMAN, and even at 12 feet wide it was bright enough (this is a fairly dark film) and ghost free.
I also ran some side by side shorts I have and it performed very well with them too.
The OPPO 103/5020 combo for 3D is shaping up very nicely for me so far.

S A M 33
That sounds like an amazing size screen
post #3574 of 8005
The RS-45/ X-30 doesn't have a 'Bright/Dark Level' adjustment like the higher models but you can make 3 user gammas under the advanced menu of picture adjustments. Then you just choose the user gamma you desire. I like to set one up for dark viewing, ambient light viewing and 3D viewing.
post #3575 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

The RS-45/ X-30 doesn't have a 'Bright/Dark Level' adjustment like the higher models but you can make 3 user gammas under the advanced menu of picture adjustments. Then you just choose the user gamma you desire. I like to set one up for dark viewing, ambient light viewing and 3D viewing.

I know we have the user gamma options and I can also accomplish the same thing in the Lumagen, but neither is a quick easy tweak like having the on the fly dark level control and it would be nice to have that option as well. No biggie since we can accomplish the same thing in a roundabout way, but more options are always good.
post #3576 of 8005
RICH WATCHES 3D, FINALLY...

Embarrassingly enough, after owning the JVC RS55 (my first 3D projector) since it came out, I only just viewed my first 3D material on the thing! This was due to the fact that I had some more complicated wiring issues to get 3D to my projector which made meput it off for a long time. Now having finally done the wiring I put on some test material.

I watched some of Finding Nemo in 3D and Avatar. My reaction: Well...kinda cool, but nothing life changing. I didn't find that 3D added tons to the experience of Finding Nemo, which looked sharper and more vivid in 2D. Avatar being made in and for 3D certainly benefited more. Some scenes were really awesome in 3D. When some people say 3D should only project depth back into the screen rather than forward toward the audience, I heavily disagree, and as an example refer to the white, floating spores (or whatever the hell they are) float down and surround Jake and Neytiri, with the spores coming right off the screen in front of you. I vividly remember this as being a pivotal "wow, 3D CAN add to the experience" moment in the theater, so it was gratifying to re-experience it at home.

But overall I came away with the impression that I don't care too much about the 3D experience, at home anyway. My eyes still feel like they are going cross-eyed for a while when watching with those glasses. Images aren't as vivid and sharp and certainly the brightness loss hurts as well. Also, playing with screen sizes in my system, zooming the image to various sizes, shows me why I've never once been interested in watching our 3D flat screen in 3D. It's just too small. Even on my projection screen I kept feeling like I needed a cinematic-type immersion to really make the 3D more immersive and less a novelty I'm viewing on a small square in front of me. So for me, at my 10ish foot seating distance, I wanted the screen to be at least 105" diagonal, if not 110" and beyond.

I know the JVC is often dissed for it's 3D performance, so I know that better 3D is possible at home. Mostly the experience feels promising but not there yet. Then again, that's how I usually feel with 3D even at good theaters. The other thing is, I've been trying to increase the image dimensionality effect with 2D by treating my room - which is a "bat cave" surrounded by black velvet for movie viewing, the image floating in black. Watching even Avatar with and without 3D, the sense of depth achievable with 2D is so good that one hardly misses 3D. For instance the shots of the space station fly-overs in the opening scene had an almost identical sense of depth in 2D vs 3D.

Anyway, that's my extremely-late-to-the-party experience.
post #3577 of 8005
It is interesting how opinions differ. I've been watching 3D now for years and I find 2D to be flat and kind of lifeless. I'll take even converted 2D to 3D like the Avengers and even Top Gun (just watched it -- 3D was nice, but I was a little put off by the grain in some scenes and the colour at times) any day over 2D. I still enjoy 2D, but every time I watch something I like I wonder what it would have looked like in 3D. biggrin.gif
post #3578 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

It is interesting how opinions differ. I've been watching 3D now for years and I find 2D to be flat and kind of lifeless. I'll take even converted 2D to 3D like the Avengers and even Top Gun (just watched it -- 3D was nice, but I was a little put off by the grain in some scenes and the colour at times) any day over 2D. I still enjoy 2D, but every time I watch something I like I wonder what it would have looked like in 3D. biggrin.gif

Did you keep the 3D-Bee 2D to 3D converter or send it back?
post #3579 of 8005
I've said for years to friends that 3D isn't for everyone, it is kind of a niche thing and I really think some people sense it better than others. I love it and always have since I was a kid.
It's not "more real or natural" or any such thing than a 2D movie, rather I find it kind of HYPER real and UN natural because of the simple fact that you cannot sense 3D in the "real" world where all the planes are in focus as they are in forced 3D systems.
I find it kind of intoxicating in it's own way.

I think you are absolutely correct that you must have SIZE to really appreciate it. As someone above commented on, I have a 12 foot wide screen for "full scope" films such as PARANORMAN, so you really do get an immersive experience.
To me size is the whole point of home theatre in any case and why I love projectors over flat screens.

S A M 33
post #3580 of 8005
You definately need two eyes and both with good vision. If one eye is blurred forget it.
post #3581 of 8005
Funny you should bring that up, because I do in fact have blurred vision in my left eye due to a scarred cornea, I have had since I was in my 30's.
Yet I still find I experience 3D just fine.
Now it's not extremely blurred, but there's a noticeable difference between the two images. Go figure.

S A M 33
post #3582 of 8005
It sure is hard finding a used RS55 this time of year.frown.gif

Tom
post #3583 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

It sure is hard finding a used RS55 this time of year.frown.gif

Tom

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?projmisc&1366144796&&&/JVC-RS55-Dealer-Demo

ScottyB is a dealer + member @ AVS. Contact him and make a deal on this RS55. Maybe he'll check the focus / convergence since it's already opened to make the sale.

you will have the full warranty since he is a dealer.
post #3584 of 8005
I've submitted a registration at videogon and it seems I am being ignored. Writing to them directly doesn't help either, I get mail delivery failure messages.
post #3585 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

I've submitted a registration at videogon and it seems I am being ignored. Writing to them directly doesn't help either, I get mail delivery failure messages.

I've been registered with Videogon since it started. It seems that none of my emails to sellers are going through.mad.gif Before I remembered my password, I requested it from Videogon multiple times and got no response. I wish those folks would put their items up in our marketplace. At least audiogon has a PM system.
post #3586 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?projmisc&1366144796&&&/JVC-RS55-Dealer-Demo

ScottyB is a dealer + member @ AVS. Contact him and make a deal on this RS55. Maybe he'll check the focus / convergence since it's already opened to make the sale.

you will have the full warranty since he is a dealer.

Thanks Jason:)

My Videogon emails aren't going through for some unknown reason. I guess I'll try to PM him on avs but it's been quite some time since he last posted. Does anyone know his phone number or email?

Tom
post #3587 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

Thanks Jason:)

My Videogon emails aren't going through for some unknown reason. I guess I'll try to PM him on avs but it's been quite some time since he last posted. Does anyone know his phone number or email?

Tom

I have his email & number, i'll send you a PM.
post #3588 of 8005
Thanks to Jason and other for the information.

Can a RS55 with eshift plus a Darbee come close to the sharpness of the w7000? The 7000 is so much sharper than my old rs2. The detail on my well focused 7000 is addicting.

Tom
post #3589 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

Thanks to Jason and other for the information.

Can a RS55 with eshift plus a Darbee come close to the sharpness of the w7000? The 7000 is so much sharper than my old rs2. The detail on my well focused 7000 is addicting.

Tom

if it has good convergence and focus, definitely. The JVC lens has less CA than the BQ lens. A good sample will have near perfect focus from top / bottom and edge to edge. That's the primary reason I didn't sell the RS55 this year, if you get a good sample you have to hold onto it.
post #3590 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Panasonic 8000 - I had a chance to spend more time with the Panasonic 8000.

For those looking for a deep dive, this is an excellent review that I agree with many of their points. A+ for David to discuss 3D calibration which is often overlooked in the various reviews.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-pt-at6000-201211052339.htm?page=Picture Quality


White field uniformity - some notes from their review that I saw as well on this copy.

The only real negative we could find – other than the lack of manual control over the iris – related to white field uniformity. On our unit, when we ran full-screen greyscale test patterns, there were cases where the right side of the image was visibly redder than the left. In real-world usage, that typically wasn’t a problem with colour film material, but we had a look at Warners’ new Blu-ray release of Hitchcock’s Strangers On A Train and did sometimes see some unwanted tinges creeping into the black and white visuals.


During calibration, this is an issue which becomes obvious once you hit ~70 IRE. There is poor color uniformity in this particular copy. It's been mentioned in the review above and also by a number of 8000 owners. This is going to vary between different samples, but it's talked about too often to think the next copy is going to be day/night better.

To test it, I played Roy Orbison's 'Black and White Night'. I could see some of the red color leaking into the image from the top. Also during a number of scenes in the Art of Flight. I am not happy to see this, I find it distracting on my HP screen. The 5020 has a bit of white field distortion, but it's very minor in comparison.

Color Calibration - This was a challenge since none of the default modes are the best starting point. The REC 709 is definitely not REC 709 / D65. The Red was even lower than the sample in the review above, with high dE's from the factory. Red was in the ~80% range and required large changes with green and blue to compensate. I also saw a similar issue with heavy green saturation that needed to be tamed.

This projector needed more 'work' to get a good calibration than any of the other models so far, with the HW50 being on the opposite end (gamma is usually near perfect, good R709 color space and relatively mild tweaks for greyscale tuneup).

The CMS is also a pain to use. It works, but I much prefer the Epson in comparison.

Post Calibration - It looks good overall once calibrated, but the black floor is not as good as the Epson 5020 or the HW50. This is noticeable on my 142" 2.8HP. It reminds me of the Sony HW30 - good, but not great compared to the other models. On the HW50, this improved quite a bit and there is no doubt the HW50 has better appearing contrast and black level performance in comparison to the Panasonic. Same thing with the 5020 which stands side by side with the HW50 in this area.

3D impressions - I watched a number of my favorite 3D clips, it looks fairly bright but I haven't measure it yet. The color is off by a mile in 3D mode and needs a heavy calibration for the colors in 3D to look correct. Ghosting with the glasses set to the 'normal' mode was pretty good overall although you could easily see the outline of the tree in Grand Canyon.

Also, flicker performance is as good on the Panasonic 8000 as it is on the Epson 5020. This makes sense since both use the 480hz panels. The image overall is very solid for those sensitive to flicker.

I still have more to look at with this projector, but those are some early first impressions. It has very nice build quality overall for this price range, but it's the PQ that counts. I see the RS46, HW50 and 5020 trumping this model in most areas of comparison.

The JVC RS55 eats the 8000 for breakfast, lunch and dinner for 2D PQ. Smooth screen would not be mistaken for e-shift 1. The JVC also has near pefect white field performance and signficantly better contrast / black levels.
post #3591 of 8005
Does the RS55 get hand selected parts like the RS35 did?
post #3592 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Does the RS55 get hand selected parts like the RS35 did?
nope, the RS65/X90 were hand selected
post #3593 of 8005
When it comes to getting a good unit in terms of focus and convergence does the hand selected parts guarantee that?
post #3594 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

When it comes to getting a good unit in terms of focus and convergence does the hand selected parts guarantee that?

The only guarantee is higher contrast #'s in those models, there is no guarantee for perfect focus and convergence. I've seen a few examples of 65's that has worse focus and convergence than my RS55, there is a bit of luck to get one that is near perfect.
post #3595 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Post Calibration - It looks good overall once calibrated, but the black floor is not as good as the Epson 5020 or the HW50. This is noticeable on my 142" 2.8HP. It reminds me of the Sony HW30 - good, but not great compared to the other models. On the HW50, this improved quite a bit and there is no doubt the HW50 has better appearing contrast and black level performance in comparison to the Panasonic. Same thing with the 5020 which stands side by side with the HW50 in this area.
Thanks, Zombie. Now I have no doubt I wasn't wrong that chose Sony hw50es over Panny pt-ae8k.
post #3596 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yusuf.0088 View Post

Thanks, Zombie. Now I have no doubt I wasn't wrong that chose Sony hw50es over Panny pt-ae8k.

I don't know if it's the same for you guys in the USA, but in the UK there isn't really any saving by going for the Panny over the Sony or the JVC X35, so it's not as if owners could justify buying the poorer model as a cost saving. I did wonder if things had changed over the years since I had an AE3000 (which had all of the above issues Zombie mentions plus poor focus uniformity as well), but it seems not. I'm tired of reading how the 8K is much brighter, yet after calibration it will be considerably dimmer due to the lack of red, which again is what I found with the 3K. Unless you're happy to watch in uncalibrated modes it's probably dimmer than the X35 let alone the VW50ES.
post #3597 of 8005
I was almost sure that it would perform like the ae3000 or ae4000 anyways. I was never satisfied with 2D on the two. When I finally got the jvc, I finally had a 2d image that I could enjoy
post #3598 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I don't know if it's the same for you guys in the USA, but in the UK there isn't really any saving by going for the Panny over the Sony or the JVC X35, so it's not as if owners could justify buying the poorer model as a cost saving. I did wonder if things had changed over the years since I had an AE3000 (which had all of the above issues Zombie mentions plus poor focus uniformity as well), but it seems not. I'm tired of reading how the 8K is much brighter, yet after calibration it will be considerably dimmer due to the lack of red, which again is what I found with the 3K. Unless you're happy to watch in uncalibrated modes it's probably dimmer than the X35 let alone the VW50ES.
Thanks, Kelvin. It's not about money saving and I'm not in the US.
Panny was in my short list because of Lens Memory. My setup is going to be kind of "multi size/format" screen with masking, so Lens Memory would be perfect complement.
Honestly, I didn't go with Panny because I read many ghosting problems in its owners thread. I thought I'm not too picky about colors, thought I can watch movies in dynamic mode with Panny. But now, after Sony, I don't accept the less smile.gif
post #3599 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yusuf.0088 View Post

Thanks, Zombie. Now I have no doubt I wasn't wrong that chose Sony hw50es over Panny pt-ae8k.

I had the HW50 and the PT-AE8000 next to each other last night in a direct A/B. The HW50 beats this projector in nearly every category except the automatic lens. cool.gif

Some observations:

  • Color - Color on the Sony is signficantly better out of the box vs. the Panasonic.. polar opposites. HW50 recomendation, set gamma to 2.2, color space to R709, user 1, Color mode 3 gets you very close to a good out of the box experience. There are no out of the box settings on the Panasonic that weren't off by a fair margin.

  • Contrast - HW50 has noticeably deeper blacks and better overall contrast.

  • 2D PQ - HW50 has better perceived sharpness from seating distance with the reality creation (I recommend turning this down to 10 or minimum in 2D, ~25 in 3D mode)

  • 3D PQ - Sony has slight better crosstalk performance, Panasonic has an edge with faster refresh / flicker, but overall the Sony 3D is prefered due to the better contrast, color and it's exceptional FI in 3D mode.

  • Color Uniformity - The Sony is considerably better here. I have a hard time looking past poor color uniformity. My screen is pretty big, very bright and I sit close. These flaws become more obvious with this arrangement. The Epson 5020 has it slightly, but nowhere as noticeable as the 8000. HW50, RS46 and RS55 are all excellent with their uniformity.

Is it possible the smooth screen process creates the uneven uniformity?
post #3600 of 8005
Thanks for the report Zombie. Out of curiosity, I assume vertical banding has been a thing of the past for many generations of these LCDs (?), but at what point did they finally squash this issue? Vertical banding drove me insane on my Panasonic AE900 and Sanyo Z3 years ago and was one of the bigger reasons I splurged for an RS1 at the time which was leaps and bounds ahead of the 900 in general. Did the move from the 720p units to the 1080p models finally solve the VB issue, or did the 1080p models have it at first as well?
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