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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 123

post #3661 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detees View Post

You think it's too bright? eek.gif
Keep in mind I said in low lamp mode, not high.
To me it seems just about right, maybe still a little brighter than it has to be, but accounting for lamp aging it should be good.
At first I had it in high lamp mode and after a few days watching I found it to be too bright, so I switched to low lamp mode.
But still, I think it should be bright enough for a bigger screen.

No buddy its just a question sorry for my poor English tongue.gif
post #3662 of 8058

I'm at 16' with a 126" diagonal 16:9 screen (approx. 1.0 gain maybe even slightly less) with my Sony HW50ES and I find the picture "comfortably bright" in low and a fully light controlled room.  I know this is a rather subjective statement but unfortunately I don't have a light meter to give a more meaningful statement.  Based on what I've read in this thread, I'm guessing others like zombie would find my picture a little dull in 2D.  I haven't experimented in 3D yet so can't comment there.  FWIW, this is my first projector so my expectations could be lower than someone on their 4th or 5th.  Overall, I'm extremely thankful that I went the projector route instead of an 80" LED.

post #3663 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for posting, this is a good, honest review of this projector. Getting the color right is an exercise in frustration, even with good calibration equipment. The mini 3D + auto-cal couldn't wrangle this one in, even with a pre-calibration, that's how far off some of the color values are.

The white / grey field uniformity is the main deal-breaker for me, it's just too obvious on the big HP screen. The Epson isn't perfect here, but definitely better than the Panasonic. Maybe it has something to do with the smooth-screen process. The color in 3D needed major calibration work and the menu controls are a bit frustrating compared to the HW50 and other models.

I'm glad I got a chance to see this in person, it's unfortunately a last pick for me when compared to the other models in the mini-shootout this year. Contrast / Black floor needs an improvement to compete with the 5020 and HW50.

This is EXACTLY what I needed to hear. I've been researching the AE8000 for a while. I will be upgrading from an 8350 primarily used for gaming to a better model soon. Can you give a ranking between the $2000-$3000 projectors you've tested with gaming and non-dedicated room viewing in mind? Thanks,
post #3664 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

This is EXACTLY what I needed to hear. I've been researching the AE8000 for a while. I will be upgrading from an 8350 primarily used for gaming to a better model soon. Can you give a ranking between the $2000-$3000 projectors you've tested with gaming and non-dedicated room viewing in mind? Thanks,

The only option for me would be the Sony HW50ES.

I have owned the Epson 6010, JVC RS46, and now the HW50ES.

The HW50ES has very low input lag, only about 12ms more than the 8350, I also used an 8350 to test with the HW50ES and had both images projected at the same time and could not detect a difference, so I would say the added 12ms is a non factor.

I can make my room pretty dark at night, but it's far from a dedicated room and I am fully satisfied with the Sony. It's taken a while to get me to the point I am at, but I won't be looking to upgrade for quite a while.
post #3665 of 8058
Epson 5020 Photos taken with an iPhone so they are not the best or very hi-rez....



]


Trying to decided if I would be any happier with the Sony 50ES or just keep the Epson and get a OPPO 103.
I really don't know if i could appreciate any pq differences the Sony might offer for the addtional cost.

Skyfall and The Dark Knight just blow me away at how good they look.

Please excuse the current setup. It is temporary and the screen is a 80" portable screen sold by Epson.
Edited by jimed1 - 3/1/13 at 11:51am
post #3666 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

The only option for me would be the Sony HW50ES.

I have owned the Epson 6010, JVC RS46, and now the HW50ES.

The HW50ES has very low input lag, only about 12ms more than the 8350, I also used an 8350 to test with the HW50ES and had both images projected at the same time and could not detect a difference, so I would say the added 12ms is a non factor.

I can make my room pretty dark at night, but it's far from a dedicated room and I am fully satisfied with the Sony. It's taken a while to get me to the point I am at, but I won't be looking to upgrade for quite a while.

The 8350 to the HW50 is a big price increase...was it "worth it" in terms of PQ increase?
post #3667 of 8058
I just moved from an Epson 5010 to a Sony hw50es and I can say that I am extremely glad I did. It looks far better to me than the Epson did in 2d and that is my main viewing material.
post #3668 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidibecker View Post

I just moved from an Epson 5010 to a Sony hw50es and I can say that I am extremely glad I did. It looks far better to me than the Epson did in 2d and that is my main viewing material.

Thanks for the input. I am worried about how the sony will do in ambient light.
I know the Sony is brighter calibrated than the Sony, but the Epson is pretty bright in living room mode
post #3669 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

The 8350 to the HW50 is a big price increase...was it "worth it" in terms of PQ increase?

Keep in mind I had borrowed that from a friend to use while he was out of town. I was able then to see both setup and the black level difference was very apparent. The Epson was nice, but I wouldn't want to use it for serious 2d movie watching, not when I have had projectors like the 6010, RS46, and now the 50ES.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimed1 View Post

Thanks for the input. I am worried about how the sony will do in ambient light.
I know the Sony is brighter calibrated than the Sony, but the Epson is pretty bright in living room mode

Don't be, the Sony is almost right up there. I keep my Sony in Low and it provides plenty of brightness. I hosted a UFC party and we had all of the lights on except over the screen and it was still a great picture. If I needed to I could ramp up to High on the lamp but so far, I haven't needed to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimed1 View Post

Epson 5020 Photos taken with an iPhone so they are not the best or very hi-rez...


Trying to decided if I would be any happier with the Sony 50ES or just keep the Epson and get a OPPO 103.
I really don't know if i could appreciate any pq differences the Sony might offer for the addtional cost.

Skyfall and The Dark Knight just blow me away at how good they look.

Please excuse the current setup. It is temporary and the screen is a 80" portable screen sold by Epson.

What does the Sony offer that you feel you are missing from the Epson? Reality Creation? Lower input Lag?
post #3670 of 8058
Here's a comparison between the JVC 95 and the Epson 5020. I know these images don't tell all the differences, but personally I'd rather have my 6020 and the $9,500 price difference. Even Art seemed to struggle rationalizing the differences. He didn't even talk about the 3D differences. The JVC struggles with 3D brightness. 3D is a strong point for the 5020. The real value, IMO, is with the $2,000 to $3,000 projectors.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-x95r/competitors.php
post #3671 of 8058
Epson is always his preferred PJ in all his reviews.
post #3672 of 8058
Thread Starter 
that's an odd comparison. The top model JVC's are a tougher sell for the extra cost. The convergence and focus would have to be hand checked / guaranteed at that price point.

It makes more sense to compare the 5020 to the similarly priced RS46 and Panasonic 8000. For pure 2D BD PQ -> RS46. For jack of all trades 2D/3D, Epson 5020. Panasonic 8000 - i'm not sure on this one. I liked everything about the Epson better than this projector.

The 5020 is a very good bang for the buck. Hopefully they'll put in FI in 3D for the 5030 in the fall. Epson RF glasses are my favorites so far this year of all the 3D glasses.
post #3673 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Take a look at the link in my signature. There are some comparisons of e-shift + darbee, etc. It's difficult to capture the effect of e-shift with the camera, but you can see close up at the pixel level what is happening.

At your screen size, there is a benefit to the e-shift model. I sit around 14 feet from a 142" 16:9 and there is a noticeable difference vs. when it's off.

I'm re-visiting JVC's e-shift 2 & Sony's Reality creation in a few days. These are both great projectors, each has their own unique strengths.

Sony-JVC.jpg

Thanks, I never even noticed that info in your signature. eek.gif I've always had the belief that the Sony & JVC units were the best 2 for movie viewing. I ruled out the Sony since I couldn't do a constant height screen with it. So now it's just which JVC. smile.gif My back row will be 17' from my 148" 2.35:1 screen & the front row that the kids like will be around 12' from the screen.

Do you think that a 1.5 gain screen will work okay for my set-up in a completely dark room? I will be using it for 2D Blu-ray movies 95% of the time with 3D being watched every one in a while.
post #3674 of 8058
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

Thanks, I never even noticed that info in your signature. eek.gif I've always had the belief that the Sony & JVC units were the best 2 for movie viewing. I ruled out the Sony since I couldn't do a constant height screen with it. So now it's just which JVC. smile.gif My back row will be 17' from my 148" 2.35:1 screen & the front row that the kids like will be around 12' from the screen.

Do you think that a 1.5 gain screen will work okay for my set-up in a completely dark room? I will be using it for 2D Blu-ray movies 95% of the time with 3D being watched every one in a while.

If it's mostly 2D, then the 1.5 gain should be fine. The JVC's provide the best contrast with the iris clamped down. On my 142" 16:9 HP (older 2.8 gain), I can run the iris on the 4810/X55 @ -11 which is still plenty bright on this screen and the contrast looks great.

I was testing e-shift 2 last night, it definitely makes a difference on a large screen with a close seating distance. The 'FILM' mode is the most natural, the other modes such as Dynamic and HD are too overcooked for my preferences. I would still combine the e-shift with the Darbee. With the e-shift 2 set @ film mode and the Darbee @ 30%, the overall PQ looks great.

For maximum perceived contrast, ideally you would have the ceiling blacked out at least 1 screen height away from the top edge of the screen. In a light controlled room, you may see reflections from the brown ceiling wash against the screen.

I recently blacked out my ceiling / floor and it makes a big difference. Now it's easier to see the black floor differences between the JVC and the rest of the models i've reviewed in this thread.
post #3675 of 8058
"What does the Sony offer that you feel you are missing from the Epson? Reality Creation? Lower input Lag?"

Frankly, I am not sure. I owned a SXRD rear projection TV and liked it until the well documented light engine problems made it scrap. As far as I know, that has never been an issue with the front projection units. That old set had DRC (digtal reality creation) with I think is the early version of RC. I thought that worked well and liked it. Epsons Super Res is pretty good too though.

My biggest gripes about my 5020 are that I can hear the fan when the lamp is in high, it has slop in the lens shift dials, and it is one of them that has a noisy iris. The covergence is good enough on mine that I can't notice any problems from my seating differnce. I am afraid if I exchange it for one that has a quiet iris I will get one that has bad convergenvce.

The 50ES would likely not exibit any of those issues and would offer a vertical stretch for an A-lens in addtion, although I do have a DVDO Duo that can do the vertical stretch. I don't have an A-lens yet so that really is not a concern at this point, just future planning. Another thing is the manual iris on the 50ES, which I think is a nice addtion. I get eye fatigue watching the 5020. I assume the manual iris works like a limit stop and the iris still works automactically, but can be manually adjusted to limit how far open it can go.

Let's see..... A black case would be nice...

I am overall happy with the picture the 5020 throws, but I don't have anything to compare it too locally.
I have about 8 days left to return the Epson. I suppose I could try to get a Sony delivered in time to look at them both and then make a decision. I suppose the 50ES would eliminate all the gripes I have with the Epson. It is just up to me to determine if it is worth the extra cost and loss of lumens in the brighter modes that I would be using for viewing a Saturday afternoon football game in a moderately lit room.

Ideally for me would be something that has a motorized zoom with lens memory, but the Panasonic is not well reviewed and I am not willing to pay addtional for the JVC or the Sony 95 to get that feature.
post #3676 of 8058
If you're not worried about color accuracy (which I presume not if you're watching the Epson in torch mode) then I don't think you'll be disappointed with the Sony in bright mode.
post #3677 of 8058
projector ordered.. screen decision to be finalized to day either Carada BW or Da-Lite CC pearlescent.. size 150 inch 16:9
post #3678 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

If you're not worried about color accuracy (which I presume not if you're watching the Epson in torch mode) then I don't think you'll be disappointed with the Sony in bright mode.

I don't watch in torch mode (dynamic), however living room mode is pretty bright and not too bad for daytime viewing. Plus I have calibrated the grayscale in living room mode to tame it down some.

I find THX is washed out looking and the gamut chart supports the way it looks.. Undersaturated in all primarys and secondaries.
Cinema mode looks the best and the color output a lot closer to what a calibrated plasma or LCD looks like. The color gamut is wider in cinema, but so are a lot of the displays these days including the charts I have seen of the 50ES, especially green.

Believe me. I am picky about the picture and I know what to look for...
post #3679 of 8058
^^^^Sorry if I sounded like you didn't understand the compromise of the higher lumen output settings. I was just trying to say that if a reference quality pic is not as important to you as light output then you might be ok with the Sony. From what I understand after reading zombie's results, the Epson pic quality is dramatically affected by light output, hence the lower lumens than the Sony post calibration. If you are as picky as you indicate, you might even prefer the Sony picture quality over the Epson at higher lumen output than a calibrated pic.
post #3680 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimed1 View Post

I don't watch in torch mode (dynamic), however living room mode is pretty bright and not too bad for daytime viewing. Plus I have calibrated the grayscale in living room mode to tame it down some.

I find THX is washed out looking and the gamut chart supports the way it looks.. Undersaturated in all primarys and secondaries.
Cinema mode looks the best and the color output a lot closer to what a calibrated plasma or LCD looks like. The color gamut is wider in cinema, but so are a lot of the displays these days including the charts I have seen of the 50ES, especially green.

Believe me. I am picky about the picture and I know what to look for...

I'm going to say the Sony can be just as bright as the Epson if you were using Living Room mode.

Super resolution is nothing compared to RC. No fan noise in low or high and no noise from the iris at all.

I'd go for the swap. You won't regret it.
post #3681 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

If it's mostly 2D, then the 1.5 gain should be fine. The JVC's provide the best contrast with the iris clamped down. On my 142" 16:9 HP (older 2.8 gain), I can run the iris on the 4810/X55 @ -11 which is still plenty bright on this screen and the contrast looks great.

I was testing e-shift 2 last night, it definitely makes a difference on a large screen with a close seating distance. The 'FILM' mode is the most natural, the other modes such as Dynamic and HD are too overcooked for my preferences. I would still combine the e-shift with the Darbee. With the e-shift 2 set @ film mode and the Darbee @ 30%, the overall PQ looks great.

For maximum perceived contrast, ideally you would have the ceiling blacked out at least 1 screen height away from the top edge of the screen. In a light controlled room, you may see reflections from the brown ceiling wash against the screen.

I recently blacked out my ceiling / floor and it makes a big difference. Now it's easier to see the black floor differences between the JVC and the rest of the models i've reviewed in this thread.

Thanks for the info. Just curious, where would I have light issues from if the room will be completely dark? I can easily paint part of the ceiling black too if it helps but the only light that will be in the room will be from the projector.
post #3682 of 8058
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

Thanks for the info. Just curious, where would I have light issues from if the room will be completely dark? I can easily paint part of the ceiling black too if it helps but the only light that will be in the room will be from the projector.

The ceiling, adjacent walls, floor, etc. An easy way to find out is to get everything set up and put 100 % white image on the screen which can be found on any calibration BD (including a free one available here).

Look around the room and see what's glowing. That light will reflect back onto the screen and work against the excellent native contrast of the JVC.

My 142" 16:9 takes up an entire wall and is inches from my ceiling. This is a grid setup, so I swapped in black ceiling tiles and painstakingly covered the grid with this material:

http://www.protostar.biz/flock.htm

Even flat black paint can reflect light. This material is pitch black when light hits it.

flock03.jpg

blackout2.jpg

ceiling.jpg

ceiling1.jpg


This is my room before I covered the grid. Reducing the ceiling reflections to 0 really blacks out the entire room and all you see is the screen. It's very immersive sitting this close to a relatively large screen. cool.gif

blackout.jpg

blackout1.jpg

JVC-mini3D1.jpg
post #3683 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The ceiling, adjacent walls, floor, etc. An easy way to find out is to get everything set up and put 100 % white image on the screen which can be found on any calibration BD (including a free one available here).

Look around the room and see what's glowing. That light will reflect back onto the screen and work against the excellent native contrast of the JVC.

My 142" 16:9 takes up an entire wall and is inches from my ceiling. This is a grid setup, so I swapped in black ceiling tiles and painstakingly covered the grid with this material:

http://www.protostar.biz/flock.htm

Even flat black paint can reflect light. This material is pitch black when light hits it.

flock03.jpg

Very neat product. I wish I could find a paint that was specialized like this stuff as that would be easier to apply & cheaper!
post #3684 of 8058
Thread Starter 
HW50-calibration.jpg

I'm calibrating an HW50 today and not sure i've posted 2D lumens post calibration in the past. This HW50 is 17.5 feet from the 142" 16:9.

With a D65 / R709 calibration, the lumen output is 1162 with the lamp on high. With the iris on 'auto-limited', the lumen output is 866. I was checking greyscale between low lamp and high lamp. There is very little difference between the 2 settings.

This projector can light up the HP. It's located dead center of the screen so watching HDTV with all the lights on in the room looks pretty good.

I'll post the 3D lumen output soon.
post #3685 of 8058
Thread Starter 
3D Lumen output - The default settings are at D65 in 3D mode. The lumen output is 1062.The dE's are ~7-8 with red being deficient. I use user mode 4 and adjust the blue/green. This costs some lumen output which comes out to ~ 894 lumens. The colors look good through the glasses.
post #3686 of 8058
post #3687 of 8058
Judging by his praise of the 3D I'm guessing he got one with new firmware. Zombie, have you sent yours in yet?
post #3688 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The ceiling, adjacent walls, floor, etc. An easy way to find out is to get everything set up and put 100 % white image on the screen which can be found on any calibration BD (including a free one available here).

Look around the room and see what's glowing. That light will reflect back onto the screen and work against the excellent native contrast of the JVC.

My 142" 16:9 takes up an entire wall and is inches from my ceiling. This is a grid setup, so I swapped in black ceiling tiles and painstakingly covered the grid with this material:

http://www.protostar.biz/flock.htm

Even flat black paint can reflect light. This material is pitch black when light hits it.

flock03.jpg

blackout2.jpg

ceiling.jpg

ceiling1.jpg


This is my room before I covered the grid. Reducing the ceiling reflections to 0 really blacks out the entire room and all you see is the screen. It's very immersive sitting this close to a relatively large screen. cool.gif

blackout.jpg

blackout1.jpg

JVC-mini3D1.jpg

Your screen looks awesome.. is your projector ceiling mounted or table top?
post #3689 of 8058
if I remember correctly, zombie10k is rack/shelf mounted his projectors
post #3690 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

I'm going to say the Sony can be just as bright as the Epson if you were using Living Room mode.

Super resolution is nothing compared to RC. No fan noise in low or high and no noise from the iris at all.

I'd go for the swap. You won't regret it.

Ditto, look forward to your feedback and thank you's after the swap cool.gif
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