or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 125

post #3721 of 8048
http://www.whathifi.com/review/jvc-dla-x35be
does it correspond to the truth?
post #3722 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by xico View Post

http://www.whathifi.com/review/jvc-dla-x35be
does it correspond to the truth?

Not in my experience, but then I'm not being paid to advertise Panasonic products either. wink.gif IMHO it's almost laughable that the '6000 has more 'detail' than the X35 especially since the Panny has smoothscreen (along with typically poorer uniformity of colour and focus).

However, I shouldn't be too bothered as thankfully I don't have to watch a Panasonic projector anymore in my home (not since I sold my 3month old POS AE3000 4 years ago biggrin.gif).
post #3723 of 8048
Quote:
http://www.whathifi.com/review/jvc-dla-x35be
does it correspond to the truth?

You should read the final verdict on the Sony VW1000 review they have - what are these guys smoking? confused.gifeek.gifbiggrin.gif
post #3724 of 8048
Its the finest 2K projector I have seen for HT use but limited in how large a screen it can adequately light. I didn't find that review to be offensive. All reviews must be taken with a grain of salt. There is no credentual body for reviewers. Its like any reviewer. One must compare the reviewers reviews to things you have experienced.

that is the basis for juging how much one can trust a reviewer. the fact that someone is a reviewer means nothing more than the person has a keyboard.
post #3725 of 8048
No, there was nothing offensive, but this was funny - " even if it's a product without a true purpose.". Does the VW1000 need 4K source material to have a purpose ? rolleyes.gif
post #3726 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Not yet, but I've been experimenting more with the 4810's 3D mode. I'm looking closer at the crosstalk control changes. It seem it only affects the brightness from 0-6 and only introduces more noticeable ghosting at 7 or 8 setting.

I have to look at this closer, but it looks pretty good at CT @ 6 and the brightness is definitely better than the default of 0. There is still hard-edge crosstalk that I can see, but the brownish/yellow shadow that I saw on the 46 (pre-firmware) is no longer there.

I'd say it's a worthy update (assuming it's identical to the 4810) since the CT controls actually do something now (control the brightness of the image).

OK , I'm a little confused . You say "not yet" then you say that "the brownish/yellow shadow that I saw on the 46 (pre-firmware) is no longer there" ??? Did you upgrade the firmwware on the RS-46 ?
You then say "it's a worthy update" ? Am I missing something ?
How about this , what was the firmware before the Update and what is the version now ? Just so we can compare .

Scott...............smile.gif
post #3727 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xico View Post

http://www.whathifi.com/review/jvc-dla-x35be
does it correspond to the truth?

no it doesn't. These are good, honest reviews of the RS46/X35 and the Panasonic 8000.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/jvc-x35-201302052614.htm#

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-pt-at6000-201211052339.htm
post #3728 of 8048
I just saw your post on the rs46 brightness. I do believe ill send mine in, just not sure when I'll get to it. Have you compared the Samsung glasses to the others? Curious how they stack up tint wise.
post #3729 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

OK , I'm a little confused . You say "not yet" then you say that "the brownish/yellow shadow that I saw on the 46 (pre-firmware) is no longer there" ??? Did you upgrade the firmwware on the RS-46 ?
You then say "it's a worthy update" ? Am I missing something ?
How about this , what was the firmware before the Update and what is the version now ? Just so we can compare .

Scott...............smile.gif

you should re-read the posts, now I'm confused.... cool.gif

I was discussing the RS4810 3D with the new style JVC RF glasses. I did not upgrade the RS46 firmware. The context of the previous discussion - If the RS46 update is identical to the shipping RS4810, then it appears to be a worthy upgrade. You will lose some light, but it will help with the the obvious crosstalk with the pre-firmware RS46.

Turning up the CT control from 0 -> 6 has little effect on the actual control of the crosstalk (if it's dimmer, it's less likely to be seen). Once it hits 7 or 8, then the crosstalk becomes excessive. 4810 owners should experiment with moving the setting up a few notches, it does need the help here since it's not very bright @ 0.



@ plissken99 - I don't have those glasses. They are compatible with the JVC RF transmitter?
post #3730 of 8048
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007K9P7H0/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1362801059&sr=1-1&pi=SL75

Aye, I've got a pair, I love them, the tint seems lighter than the jvc or glasses were, and their a lot more comfortable with my prescription glasses. And the price is sweet.
post #3731 of 8048



Pana8000/HW50... even if i did'nt seen zombie comparisons, it will be enough to choose hw50 (or X35) over 8000.
post #3732 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sona Kakoo View Post




Pana8000/HW50... even if i did'nt seen zombie comparisons, it will be enough to choose hw50 (or X35) over 8000.
This 'test' is one of the most deceptive (and useless) things in Art's reviews.
post #3733 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

yes, there is no obvious difference with the new JVC glasses / RF transmitter vs. the IR transmitter + XPand 104 glasses. I also checked the Monster Vision 3D, all 3 perform the same in regard to crosstalk performance & brightness.

unfortunately the JVC glasses are bit too small for me, so I can't use them for an extended period of time.

So the Monster 3D glasses work okay with the new JVC RF projectors? I've got a friend with a Sony HW30 & he loves the Monster 3D glass for comfort. I would like to use them too if they work with the JVC's. I think they are less money too which would be nice. smile.gif
post #3734 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

This 'test' is one of the most deceptive (and useless) things in Art's reviews.

even though he does post a disclaimer to take the photos with a grain of salt, readers are inevitiably drawn to the screenshots for the comparisons.

members have asked me to do the same but there is no way I am going down that road. Not until everyone has one of these on their desktop and I get a camera capable of at least 14 stops.

studiomonitor.jpg
post #3735 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Jim, the JVC projectors have a 3 pin 3D VESA port that you can plug a number of transmitters into, including the original JVC IR emitter, the new RF emitter and also the Monster Vision 3D emitter.

Any combination will work with the splitter cable I made. I posted a link in my signature how to make it.

The MV3D's are very comfortable, they are unique in shape / size compared to all of the other glasses.

3d-splitter3.jpg
post #3736 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

members have asked me to do the same but there is no way I am going down that road. Not until everyone has one of these on their desktop and I get a camera capable of at least 14 stops.

studiomonitor.jpg
There is still a way to make comparison of black levels using camera. Only this has to be done in a scientific way:
- same environment (no lighting, same objects in the room on the same places);
- all PJ's must be set to the same ftL @ 100% brightness, gamma @ 2.2;
- dynamic contrast must be off;
- camera position must be the same;
- image frame must be the same;
- camera settings must be the same - manual settings with long shutter speed (obviously, the image must be overexposed to show difference in black levels);
- no processing or the same processing after the image has been taken.

Obviously Art don't abide by these rules so his comparisons can't be used to judge projectors' relative black levels.

I remember Coderguy once did a great comparison which showed perceptual black levels of different projectors. I think it was in your thread, Zombie.
post #3737 of 8048
Thread Starter 
I've done those tests before and the results are 1/2 decent, but most will take it out of context which is why I choose not to post those photos. Plus people will see bright corners and freak out.

Also I believe he was using a DLP and the JVC, the results aren't going to be as drastic when comparing the 5020 / HW50 and the JVC's.

The highest contrast DLP i've seen this year was the HC8000 and the black floor was still less than the HW30 from last year and around the Panasonic 8000 (which is several notches behind the 5020 and HW50 and a good distance behind the JVC's).

I watched a calibrated RS4810 last night on the HP screen with my new pitch black ceiling/floor. Dark scenes look amazing when the gamma is adjusted right. There is a certain depth to the image that is hard to reproduce on the other models. The 5020 and HW50 do hold their own though. The Panasonic 8000 & Mitsubishi HC8000 looked muddy to me in these scenes.

The nirvana projector for me would have the best quality of the DLP and LCOS panels in 1 projector. Add in Sony's color system which provides some of the best 'out of the box' colors.
post #3738 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I've done those tests before and the results are 1/2 decent, but most will take it out of context which is why I choose not to post those photos. Plus people will see bright corners and freak out.

Also I believe he was using a DLP and the JVC, the results aren't going to be as drastic when comparing the 5020 / HW50 and the JVC's.

The highest contrast DLP i've seen this year was the HC8000 and the black floor was still less than the HW30 from last year and around the Panasonic 8000 (which is several notches behind the 5020 and HW50 and a good distance behind the JVC's).

I watched a calibrated RS4810 last night on the HP screen with my new pitch black ceiling/floor. Dark scenes look amazing when the gamma is adjusted right. There is a certain depth to the image that is hard to reproduce on the other models. The 5020 and HW50 do hold their own though. The Panasonic 8000 & Mitsubishi HC8000 looked muddy to me in these scenes.

The nirvana projector for me would have the best quality of the DLP and LCOS panels in 1 projector. Add in Sony's color system which provides some of the best 'out of the box' colors.

All we need is a single chip LCOS machine with JVCs iteration for great contrast. They just need to update their chips like Sony did and you'll have good enough Motion. Then use an LED/laser hybrid light engine to eliminate the possibility of RBE. The single chip route eliminates convergence issues and cuts down on costs.

I.don't know why but they stopped development on a single chip LCOS solution years ago. Ideally, if the chip is fast enough, It can do sequential color and be fine with motion. Maybe that was why they didn't have any real production units.
post #3739 of 8048
Thread Starter 
I'd like to know more about this JVC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXRoiz913nk

Published on Jan 9, 2013

JVC DLA-SH7NLG 4K Projector Demo with RGB Laser Light source shown at I/ITSEC 2012 in Orlando.

This video shows the Approach to SeaTac Airport with stunning imagery created by the Visualization Projector and Rockwell's EP8000 Image Generator.
The SH7 uses a 10 MP (4096 x 2400) 1.27-inch DiLA (LCOS) imager from JVC and this model replaces the dual UHP lamp illumination with a Laser based RGB light stream to give 4000 lumen brightness and 10K:1 contrast. See the video showing the JVC technology in action at I/ITSEC.
post #3740 of 8048
Haha idk. That 10k:1 may upset some people. Unless that is just a commercial number to keep the lumens high.
post #3741 of 8048
Thread Starter 
watch the video, they are claiming the blacks looked excellent. I'm not sure what this projector is or the target audience, but the technology is promising to hear about 4K + e-shift + laser light source.

Is there anything new brewing in the mid-range DLP camp? (3K-10K). It seems the DLP market is currently under 3K models, budget models and PICO units. I have the QUMI 720P DLP and like this little projector. I use it for a monitor sometimes or watching TV at night when I don't care about leaving it on.

It's a shame there isn't something in the 4-7K DLP range. I would pay in that range for a DC4 3D DLP with a decent lens that could put out ~1000 lumens in 3D mode.
post #3742 of 8048
I think vivitek has a 3d DLP LED model coming out this year. Probably an updated H9080FD. Hopefully its in that $7-$8000 msrp range. Its basically Runco LS-5 with an LED light engine.
post #3743 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post


- dynamic contrast must be off;
.

If you are talking about dynamic iris, i can't agree..
post #3744 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sona Kakoo View Post

If you are talking about dynamic iris, i can't agree..

I kind of half agree. The issue is that people are usually fine when claiming numbers from JVC machines (or others that use manual irises) when the iris is closed down but then have an issue saying dynamic irises shouldn't count. In the end both fixed and dynamic don't show native black level performance. So it would have to be fully open iris on both or iris in use (whether it be manual or dynamic) on both.

He may be talking about software that gives the impression of heightened contrast but in actuality most of those processors clip whites and crushes blacks. There are a ton of DLP models that have such features. Those should be turned off for sure.
post #3745 of 8048
10k:1 native contrast with 4000 lumens should yeild very decent black levels! And keep in mind this is JVCs 1st effort with a laser projector, and true 4k. I expect some amazing machines in the next few years. If the bulbs will last as long as advertised, I intend to stick with my RS46 until such time as something like that is at or under the 5k mark.
post #3746 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Jim, the JVC projectors have a 3 pin 3D VESA port that you can plug a number of transmitters into, including the original JVC IR emitter, the new RF emitter and also the Monster Vision 3D emitter.

Any combination will work with the splitter cable I made. I posted a link in my signature how to make it.

The MV3D's are very comfortable, they are unique in shape / size compared to all of the other glasses.

3d-splitter3.jpg

SO I think I get what you are doing. The home made splitter allows both RF transmitters to be hooked up & working at the same time. This will allow me to use both types of 3D glasses. Now if I only want to buy the MV3D glasses & emitter then I can just plug it directly into the JVC & buy as many pairs of MV3D glasses that I need. smile.gif Am I correct?
post #3747 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

He may be talking about software that gives the impression of heightened contrast but in actuality most of those processors clip whites and crushes blacks. There are a ton of DLP models that have such features. Those should be turned off for sure.
Fixed iris and dynamic iris are two different beasts. Sure, they both close irises. But with fixed iris you get constant brightness on all IRE levels. I wrote that both projectors to be tested must be calibrated to equal brightness on 100% white field and equal gamma (2.2, for example). Dynamic iris would prevent that most of the time and won't show projector's real native contrast anyway.
post #3748 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

All we need is a single chip LCOS machine with JVCs iteration for great contrast. They just need to update their chips like Sony did and you'll have good enough Motion. Then use an LED/laser hybrid light engine to eliminate the possibility of RBE. The single chip route eliminates convergence issues and cuts down on costs.

I.don't know why but they stopped development on a single chip LCOS solution years ago. Ideally, if the chip is fast enough, It can do sequential color and be fine with motion. Maybe that was why they didn't have any real production units.

I don't think it's so easy to develop faster chips. To make them switch faster you would probably have to make them thinner (I read this somewhere but can't recall where), which in turn would make them less good at blocking light. i.e. they would take a hit in contrast. Sure, they could take Sonys route, but then probably have to start from scratch with a new chip and might not be able to get more contrast than Sony anyway?

Regarding single chip LCOS, the switching speed requirement is very high. Now they can't even switch fast enough to do 3D without ghosting at 120 hz. A DLP with a 5x color wheel is working at 3x (RGB) 5x (wheel speed) x 24 Hz = 360 Hz.

DLPs are inherently about a 1000 fold faster compared to LCOS, which also explains why they do not suffer from any ghosting.

If they could make a laser LCOS I would be very happy with that. If I understand it correctly the very low etendue of the laser would make it possible to close down the iris fully without light loss. 1000-1500 calibrated lumens that doesn't degrade over time coupled with 150K:1 native contrast seems like a very powerful combination to me. In addition low etendue makes it possible to use much simpler and cheaper optics without degrading image quality - i.e. much smaller lenses could be used without affecting sharpness.

I have an X35 at the moment and a 119'' high contrast high power screen. I wouldn't mind even higher contrast even though it's quite good already, and a bit more lumens in 3D would be nice (it's very nice and bright in the sweetspot and in high lamp, but that's noisy and with a new lamp and it's less good outside the sweet spot.). Otherwise I'm very happy with it. Sure, there are some ghosting in the most difficult scenes and it would be nice to get rid of that, but it's rarely visable and I love watching 3D on the machine. I have a Panasonic 55VT50 as well and the JVC kills it in 3D IMO. The image size is of course very important, but in addition to that, the panasonic has very poor black levels in 3D mode and more noticeble ghosting compared to the JVC. The high contrast of the JVC really kills the tv and makes the experience so much better.
Edited by Drexler - 3/10/13 at 3:39am
post #3749 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I've done those tests before and the results are 1/2 decent, but most will take it out of context which is why I choose not to post those photos. Plus people will see bright corners and freak out.

Also I believe he was using a DLP and the JVC, the results aren't going to be as drastic when comparing the 5020 / HW50 and the JVC's.

The highest contrast DLP i've seen this year was the HC8000 and the black floor was still less than the HW30 from last year and around the Panasonic 8000 (which is several notches behind the 5020 and HW50 and a good distance behind the JVC's).

I watched a calibrated RS4810 last night on the HP screen with my new pitch black ceiling/floor. Dark scenes look amazing when the gamma is adjusted right. There is a certain depth to the image that is hard to reproduce on the other models. The 5020 and HW50 do hold their own though. The Panasonic 8000 & Mitsubishi HC8000 looked muddy to me in these scenes.

The nirvana projector for me would have the best quality of the DLP and LCOS panels in 1 projector. Add in Sony's color system which provides some of the best 'out of the box' colors.
How much ceiling and floor in front of the screen do you pitch black?
post #3750 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

SO I think I get what you are doing. The home made splitter allows both RF transmitters to be hooked up & working at the same time. This will allow me to use both types of 3D glasses. Now if I only want to buy the MV3D glasses & emitter then I can just plug it directly into the JVC & buy as many pairs of MV3D glasses that I need. smile.gif Am I correct?

correct, you can use just the MV3D transmitter and run as many MV3D glasses as you want.

These Optoma glasses will also work with the MV3D RF transmitter.

http://www.amazon.com/Optoma-BG-ZF2100GLS-Active-Shutter-Glasses/dp/B008PQJXFO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362930697&sr=8-1&keywords=optoma+3D+glasses


Quote:
Originally Posted by lgreis View Post

How much ceiling and floor in front of the screen do you pitch black?

At least 1 screen height is a good starting point.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014