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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 137

post #4081 of 8005
I haven't heard back from Da-Lite yet on my inquiry on the largest HP screen they can produce with no seams. I know I saw on their custom screen configurator that they do offer a Cinema Contour HP in 159" size which is what size I've been viewing on my wall, but I haven't been able to confirm if it is seamless.

I'm really tossed on if I should get an HP or not. I had an AV integration company out over the weekend and they were very against the idea of going with the HP. They said I should be looking at a 1.3-1.4 gain at the most, which in Da-Lite's line would be the Cinema Vision 1.3. Their reasons for this was because the projector will be ceiling mounted slightly above the middle axis plane of the screen and that I would have to deal with the drawbacks of the high gain screen.

Zombie - Why do you think pairing the HP with the Sony HW-50 is a good match? What are the benefits? Is your projector table mounted or ceiling mounted (assuming table?). I have the lamp on high on the Sony HW-50 and against the light tan wall it is plenty bright with an image measured to somewhere about 158-160". I'm sure even a 1.3 gain screen would get me an even brighter image, maybe even enough to drop it to low depending on the content and room conditions. My room isn't dedicated nor is it blacked out, but I am working on methods to control external sources of light.
post #4082 of 8005
How far above the center of the screen?
The HP doesn't lose all the gain that fast, especially if the projector will still be mounted within the vertical screen dimensions and dead-centered horizontally to your seating.

If you are paying that kind of money for a large screen, I'm assuming the lamp costs do not bother you. You could go with the 1.3 gain in this case, but you might expend more lamps over time.
post #4083 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

How far above the center of the screen?
The HP doesn't lose all the gain that fast, especially if the projector will still be mounted within the vertical screen dimensions and dead-centered horizontally to your seating.

If you are paying that kind of money for a large screen, I'm assuming the lamp costs do not bother you. You could go with the 1.3 gain in this case, but you might expend more lamps over time.

I should be able to get the projector about perfectly centered horizontally, and vertically it will probably be 2/3's up the screen. Lamp costs don't bother me too much (I'd gladly trade a larger screen for less lamp hours), about how many hours are expected on the HW-50 bulb on high mode? I'm estimating at the most I will put 1,000-1,500 hours on the bulb at the absolute most each year, probably less.
post #4084 of 8005
For 3D, the High Power screen will help a lot, if your not into 3D that much, then it won't be as big of a difference. If it were me, I'd take the High Gain screen, but I've never seen that other Da-Lite material so hard to say.
Also, depends on how much cost difference between screen materials I suppose.

A lot of dealers are clueless as to the High Power screen, they assume the disadvantages are like any other high gain screen. There are some disadvantages to the HP (like viewing angle, seating angle affecting brightness, etc...), but it's certainly not something most people harp on unless you will be having large viewing parties where people are sitting far away from the center.

It's hard to say what you'd like better, but when in doubt I'd take the extra gain for 3D and/or brighter 2D image as well, due to your larger screen size.
post #4085 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

For 3D, the High Power screen will help a lot, if your not into 3D that much, then it won't be as big of a difference. If it were me, I'd take the High Gain screen, but I've never seen that other Da-Lite material so hard to say.
Also, depends on how much cost difference between screen materials I suppose.

A lot of dealers are clueless as to the High Power screen, they assume the disadvantages are like any other high gain screen. There are some disadvantages to the HP (like viewing angle, seating angle affecting brightness, etc...), but it's certainly not something most people harp on unless you will be having large viewing parties where people are sitting far away from the center.

It's hard to say what you'd like better, but when in doubt I'd take the extra gain for 3D and/or brighter 2D image as well, due to your larger screen size.

Very interesting, my seating right now isn't that wide, in fact with the screen size that large it's hardly wider than the screen itself, maybe an additional foot or so on each side. I'm generally very near the middle of course. How bad would be be towards the outskirts of the screen and maybe a foot beyond? Seating is maybe 14-15 feet away.

Regarding 3D, you know...that's also interesting. Previously I'd only ever seen a couple 3D movies in theaters and never walked away impressed. I work with video for my job, and have a couple 3DTV's on hand to test some content, and was very unimpressed with those sets and content. A while back I'd purchased a 3D set of The Avengers because it was the same price at the same time as 2D, and I popped it in and loved it! I can see myself buying and viewing the big 3D movies each year, so I do want good 3D performance. I've already went and purchased 3D copies of Avatar and Prometheus (already had 2D versions) and am very impressed with the performance.
post #4086 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post

I haven't heard back from Da-Lite yet on my inquiry on the largest HP screen they can produce with no seams.

I recently went through this with Da-Lite and the information on the website is wrong. They can go as big as 8' tall on the High Power fabrics without a seam. Portions of the website say the limit is 6', but this was for the older 2.8 gain HP fabric. The limits on the newer 2.4 gain fabric are bigger. Based on this information I ordered a screen from them that was around 169" x 81" and they had no problem manufacturing it without a seam.
post #4087 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenStimpy View Post

I recently went through this with Da-Lite and the information on the website is wrong. They can go as big as 8' tall on the High Power fabrics without a seam. Portions of the website say the limit is 6', but this was for the older 2.8 gain HP fabric. The limits on the newer 2.4 gain fabric are bigger. Based on this information I ordered a screen from them that was around 169" x 81" and they had no problem manufacturing it without a seam.

That is great news!!! Yes I saw the same thing with the 6' height limit which would have put me at a smaller screen than I would have liked. 8' is more than enough for what I want, so that will save me some time waiting on a response from Da-Lite since I have my answer now.

Thank you kindly sir! smile.gif


PS: Now that is a LARGE screen.
post #4088 of 8005
You are very welcome. I know I was struggling over this decision for months due to what I supposed were the height restrictions on the High Power fabric. Did I want a brighter screen (but smaller) for 3D, or a bigger and dimmer screen for 2D? Once I found out the real limits it made the decision a no-brainer.
post #4089 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post

I haven't heard back from Da-Lite yet on my inquiry on the largest HP screen they can produce with no seams. I know I saw on their custom screen configurator that they do offer a Cinema Contour HP in 159" size which is what size I've been viewing on my wall, but I haven't been able to confirm if it is seamless.

I'm really tossed on if I should get an HP or not. I had an AV integration company out over the weekend and they were very against the idea of going with the HP. They said I should be looking at a 1.3-1.4 gain at the most, which in Da-Lite's line would be the Cinema Vision 1.3. Their reasons for this was because the projector will be ceiling mounted slightly above the middle axis plane of the screen and that I would have to deal with the drawbacks of the high gain screen.

Zombie - Why do you think pairing the HP with the Sony HW-50 is a good match? What are the benefits? Is your projector table mounted or ceiling mounted (assuming table?). I have the lamp on high on the Sony HW-50 and against the light tan wall it is plenty bright with an image measured to somewhere about 158-160". I'm sure even a 1.3 gain screen would get me an even brighter image, maybe even enough to drop it to low depending on the content and room conditions. My room isn't dedicated nor is it blacked out, but I am working on methods to control external sources of light.

159" HP Cinema Contour is seamless.
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post #4090 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post


Zombie - Why do you think pairing the HP with the Sony HW-50 is a good match? What are the benefits? Is your projector table mounted or ceiling mounted (assuming table?). I have the lamp on high on the Sony HW-50 and against the light tan wall it is plenty bright with an image measured to somewhere about 158-160". I'm sure even a 1.3 gain screen would get me an even brighter image, maybe even enough to drop it to low depending on the content and room conditions. My room isn't dedicated nor is it blacked out, but I am working on methods to control external sources of light.

mainly for 3D. All these projectors drop in lumen output when going into 3D mode and the glasses block additional light coming into our eyes. Also the lamp will dim over time as well.

acceptable 3D brightness is a subjective topic, you have to go with what works for your personal preferences. I like bright 3D, so the older 2.8HP makes sense with my setup.
post #4091 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

159" HP Cinema Contour is seamless.

Thanks Mike, I have your compadre Craig looking into it for me.
post #4092 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

mainly for 3D. All these projectors drop in lumen output when going into 3D mode and the glasses block additional light coming into our eyes. Also the lamp will dim over time as well.

acceptable 3D brightness is a subjective topic, you have to go with what works for your personal preferences. I like bright 3D, so the older 2.8HP makes sense with my setup.

That is a worry of mine with a large low gain screen. I can light it okay right now on high mode, but what about at 1000 hours? 1500 hours and further? I have no further adjustability.

My hope is that with a high gain screen, it'd be easy to put on low for 2D and keep at high for 3D... and down the road I always have the ability to crank up 2D to high when the bulb dims over time to compensate. I know in the past you've talked about using DI as a method to somewhat artificially lower/raise/fine tune brightness. It seems like most all of the default modes I watch (usually Reference) have DI disabled. I still have a lot to learn about the benefits/drawbacks/uses of DI. As of right now I' haven't watched hardly anything with DI enabled.
post #4093 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post

That is a worry of mine with a large low gain screen. I can light it okay right now on high mode, but what about at 1000 hours? 1500 hours and further? I have no further adjustability.

My hope is that with a high gain screen, it'd be easy to put on low for 2D and keep at high for 3D... and down the road I always have the ability to crank up 2D to high when the bulb dims over time to compensate. I know in the past you've talked about using DI as a method to somewhat artificially lower/raise/fine tune brightness. It seems like most all of the default modes I watch (usually Reference) have DI disabled. I still have a lot to learn about the benefits/drawbacks/uses of DI. As of right now I' haven't watched hardly anything with DI enabled.

With an HP screen, you can run the iris in 'Auto-limited' which clamps the iris down, but still maintains the full DI. then it opens up for 3D. That's a pretty big screen you're planning on, so a screen with gain can help elongate the time between lamp changes. Plus it's great for ambient light viewing.

The Cinema Contour is a very nice frame. it's not cheap, but it's well built and classy looking with the thick frame and blackout velvet. Mine is a 142" 16:9 and would have gone larger if I had the room.
post #4094 of 8005
Hi Zombie10K,

For 3D, What projector do you prefer? The Benq W7000 or the Sharp XV-Z30000?

Best regards.
post #4095 of 8005
He prefers the Sharp due to the better / more comfortable 3D glasses, and the Sharp's much better contrast. The Benq is no slouch in 3D either though, it just lacks contrast.
Sorry to answer his question, but he has stated the answer several times across the forum, he can chime in further if he wants to elaborate on why.
post #4096 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fpr View Post

Hi Zombie10K,

For 3D, What projector do you prefer? The Benq W7000 or the Sharp XV-Z30000?

Best regards.

In my setup with the HP screen, I prefer the Sharp vs. the BenQ. The 30K has noticeably better contrast in 3D than the W7000. The W7000 is brighter, but I can make the 30k work since I have it at near eye level on the 2.8HP.

I'll go further and say it's some of best 3D i've seen out of any of the projectors in the shootout. The motion is excellent in 3D even without FI on 144hz modes. I don't know how they did it, but the motion in 3D is very pleasing on this projector.
post #4097 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The motion is excellent in 3D even without FI on 144hz modes.

You meant without 144hz not on 144hz, right?
Is the Sharp 144hz?
post #4098 of 8005
Thread Starter 
right, without 144hz or FI.

I watched scenes from Journey to the Mysterious Island last night after a 3D cal through the glasses. The motion is perfect for my eyes. I know there some kind of pull down going on, but it's very good processing however they are doing it.

On the W7000 I generally wanted to run with FI, but don't miss it at all on the 30k.
post #4099 of 8005
" In my setup with the HP screen, I prefer the Sharp vs. the BenQ. The 30K has noticeably better contrast in 3D than the W7000. The W7000 is brighter, but I can make the 30k work since I have it at near eye level on the 2.8HP."

Zombie, if the cat, neighbor's kids, or mutant termites shredded your hp 2.8 screen, and you were forced to watch a 110",1.1 - 1.3 gain replacement white screen for several months due to the hp factory being hit by a giant meteor, would you still pick the Sharp over the BenQ for 2d/3d viewing? (or another <$2500 projector?)
Edited by avjohn - 5/13/13 at 7:53am
post #4100 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avjohn View Post

" In my setup with the HP screen, I prefer the Sharp vs. the BenQ. The 30K has noticeably better contrast in 3D than the W7000. The W7000 is brighter, but I can make the 30k work since I have it at near eye level on the 2.8HP."

Zombie, if the cat, neighbor's kids, or mutant termites shredded your hp 2.8 screen, and you were forced to watch a 110",1.1 - 1.3 gain replacement white screen for several months due to the hp factory being hit by a giant meteor, would you still pick the Sharp over the BenQ for 2d/3d viewing? (or another <$2500 projector?)

I protect my HP screen more carefully than the rest of my gear, this will never happen. biggrin.gif

To answer your question, on a low gain screen i'd probably opt for the Epson 5020 since it can crank out the lumens in 3D and has better contrast than the W7000.
post #4101 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Seegs108 is generously donating his newly acquired Sharp 20K for a few days so we can see how this top shelf .95 DLP model stacks up against the Sharp 30K, JVC RS55, etc.

We've officially run out of room for the thread title. biggrin.gif
post #4102 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by avjohn View Post

" In my setup with the HP screen, I prefer the Sharp vs. the BenQ. The 30K has noticeably better contrast in 3D than the W7000. The W7000 is brighter, but I can make the 30k work since I have it at near eye level on the 2.8HP."

Zombie, if the cat, neighbor's kids, or mutant termites shredded your hp 2.8 screen, and you were forced to watch a 110",1.1 - 1.3 gain replacement white screen for several months due to the hp factory being hit by a giant meteor, would you still pick the Sharp over the BenQ for 2d/3d viewing? (or another <$2500 projector?)

Deeper contrast over exact color accuracy being preferred doesn't surprise me. That's why when I used to calibrate LCD's for a few people, I would sometimes use another PRESET to go off-color a bit to max the contrast of the calibration, or if the image wasn't bright enough you can do the same. With some of these older LCD's you could drop the native on/off in half or less unintentionally just with a little tuning. Even LCOS projectors suffer from it some, if you raise the offsets on the JVC, in some cases it shoots the contrast down.
post #4103 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Seegs108 is generously donating his newly acquired Sharp 20K for a few days so we can see how this top shelf .95 DLP model stacks up against the Sharp 30K, JVC RS55, etc.

We've officially run out of room for the thread title. biggrin.gif

Zombie,
Interesting about the Sharp 20K. It might be an "apples to oranges" comparison as the rest of your "flock" have 3D capability.
Nevertheless, I just looked at Art's review of the 20K. He said that it was one of the sharpest images available with JVC like black levels. It was $10k MSRP back in the day...It should be fun to see the progression to the Sharp Z30K. Amazing that the Z30k can be had for <$2K. smile.gif
post #4104 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post

Zombie,
Interesting about the Sharp 20K. It might be an "apples to oranges" comparison as the rest of your "flock" have 3D capability.
Nevertheless, I just looked at Art's review of the 20K. He said that it was one of the sharpest images available with JVC like black levels. It was $10k MSRP back in the day...It should be fun to see the progression to the Sharp Z30K. Amazing that the Z30k can be had for <$2K. smile.gif

From what I've seen so far, it has some of the best contrast performance I've seen on any DLP unit I've owned. HomeTheater.com says black level is .001 in high contrast mode and I believe it. It puts out a blacker black than my Planar PD8150 and NuVision P2 (in it's least aggressive, but very usable, DI mode). But obviously its peak white is less than either because its a manual/fixed iris position. It's still plenty bright in High Contrast mode for my high power screen. I'm loving the image it puts out so far.
post #4105 of 8005
@Seegs108
So it is your new favorite?
post #4106 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post

Zombie,
Interesting about the Sharp 20K. It might be an "apples to oranges" comparison as the rest of your "flock" have 3D capability.
Nevertheless, I just looked at Art's review of the 20K. He said that it was one of the sharpest images available with JVC like black levels. It was $10k MSRP back in the day...It should be fun to see the progression to the Sharp Z30K. Amazing that the Z30k can be had for <$2K. smile.gif

I'm interested in seeing the 2D performance vs. the RS55 and Sharp 30K with top shelf BD content like Art of Flight, Samsara, Skyfall and Dark Knight Rises (70mm IMAX shots). +1 to Seegs for spreading the wealth on these classy 'old' .95 DLP's. cool.gif

The 30k is quickly becoming one of my favorites this year, i'm sorry I didn't get a chance to see it soon. Thanks to Ranger for sending his in, I hope he likes the calibration.

The price is a steal for what we paid for it. I am seriously RBE sensitive and have no issues watching 2D @ 950 D65 lumens on my HP screen, much better than the W7000.

The 3D PQ is also better in regard to contrast, there is an obvious difference in a direct A/B comparison. Considering there is no FI and the glasses are sync'd @ 120hz, the motion in 3D is one of the best i've seen this year. I don't know how they are processing the signal, but I like the end result.

My replacement lamps will be here tomorrow, check the 30k thread for additional details. Also, i'm going to post a file that you can use to check the focus on the sharp.
post #4107 of 8005
I tried to tell people to maybe check out the hd8300 because it has decent contrast (though not quite to the Sharp, but back then there was no Sharp deal), but I got shot down for the Benq which was so much brighter. Though the hd8300 isn't center based offset, so it would be problematic.You even convinced me I didn't need more contrast, what I needed was more brightness smile.gif

I sit too close for the Epson and the ghosting on the Epson is still much more visible in gaming, not to mention increased ghosting over lamp age. I sit at 1.0x screen width usually as opposed to 1.2x some sit at.

Though at the time there weren't very many other options. I got into the Benq a couple months too early, or I could have had the Sharp instead.
Sadly, I haven't watched a 3D movie in a very long time now that I think about it, more due to being busy with other stuff.
post #4108 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

@Seegs108
So it is your new favorite?

We'll see what happens after I install the latest firmware. It's pretty loud in high lamp mode (which I'm running it in). All three of the projectors I've just mentioned put out SUCH a nice picture it's hard to choose one that's the best. Each one has a particular strength that I like. The Planar is the brightest when putting it in a mode that can also give you max contrast. The sharp has a better lens and has a deeper black floor. The NuVision is LED and looks VERY similar to the PD8150 in PQ and it should look that way considering they have the same internals (light path, processing, optics) though one has LEDs and the other has a bulb and physical DI. The LEDs give me piece of mind when using this unit. I don't have to worry about putting hours on the LEDs so if I want to play around and take my time demo'ing material I can.

Plus, Zombie is going to calibrate the 20k so I may like it even more once he returns it. I still need to watch a bit more content on it to make a final decision but so far I don't have any complaints regarding picture quality.
post #4109 of 8005
Thread Starter 
The HD8300 couldn't center mount so I had little interest in it. The W7000 was one of the only 3D DLP's that worked until the Sharp's were released. It was bright and 3D was crosstalk free. Most 3D looks good until there is a scope movie or dark scenes like in Journey to the Mysterious planet.

I think the DLP flash is affecting the contrast in 3D as I demonstrated on the Acer 5360 w/ DLP and IR settings. The BQ is using red flash, but it sill raises the black floor. They should offer an IR option in future models, I wouldn't likely return to a DLP flash only 3D projector going forward.

nvidia-dlp-4.jpg

nvidia-dlp-2.jpg

I didn't expect the 30k to look considerably better in regard to contrast, it's at least the Sony HW30 caliber, which is no JVC but still respectable for most content.

3D Sharpness is most certainly better than the HW50. The HW50 relies on the RC in 3D to present a perceived sharp image on a large screen with a close seating distance. This can magnify the noise in the background in stereo and can be distracting on occasion. Despite all the RC tweaks, it's simply not as naturally sharp at the 30k.
post #4110 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

We'll see what happens after I install the latest firmware. It's pretty loud in high lamp mode (which I'm running it in). All three of the projectors I've just mentioned put out SUCH a nice picture it's hard to choose one that's the best. Each one has a particular strength that I like. The Planar is the brightest when putting it in a mode that can also give you max contrast. The sharp has a better lens and has a deeper black floor. The NuVision is LED and looks VERY similar to the PD8150 in PQ and it should look that way considering they have the same internals (light path, processing, optics) though one has LEDs and the other has a bulb and physical DI. The LEDs give me piece of mind when using this unit. I don't have to worry about putting hours on the LEDs so if I want to play around and take my time demo'ing material I can.

Plus, Zombie is going to calibrate the 20k so I may like it even more once he returns it. I still need to watch a bit more content on it to make a final decision but so far I don't have any complaints regarding picture quality.

I didn't know Tom Huffman @ CP did a review on the 20k. There is great info in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/735221/sharp-xv-z20000-initial-impressions-and-numbers
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