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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 138

post #4111 of 8033
Thread Starter 
Seegs - there was some recent discussion on the DLP's and how the lens shift relates to overall contrast performance. Some were claiming the models with the large offsets had better contrast than the lens center models.

How does this apply to your experience with the various .95 DLP models?

Comparing the HC8000 and the Sharp 30k, I would say the sharp had better perceived contrast and they both have the .65 DC3 panels.I didn't see a correlation in this particular instance.


The Sim2 lumis Solo 3D would work perfect on the HP. biggrin.gif

sim2lumis.jpg
post #4112 of 8033
From what I've read it depends on how the projector's light path was designed. It looks like you got that picture from the thread I was going to reference:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455132/optoma-hd91-full-led-dlp-full-hd-2d-3d-ready-september-2013/0_50

It's talked about quite a bit there. Check out the TI report Mark referenced here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/dlpa022/dlpa022.pdf


That goes over it quite a bit and talks about a few different options a manufacturer can choose from. IIRC you have to offset the light leaving the optics to achieve better native contrast which can be a pain in the neck for the end user trying to install it properly, especially if he/she was using a high power screen like we are. After owning both an InFocus IN82 and IN83 (which had something like a 35 degree offset) I didn't find the end result that much better in terms of contrast. I'd rather have some light path optimizations like light leakage/stray light control and dampening as opposed to an offset to achieve better contrast performance. If you look at native contrast numbers, cine4home gives the IN83 only 200:1 more on/off compared to the Planar PD8150 even though the IN83 uses a DC4 and a substantial lens offset. In the end it's just not worth it. Is that 13.5% really all that noticeable?
Edited by Seegs108 - 5/13/13 at 9:39pm
post #4113 of 8033
Thread Starter 
thanks for the link, after re-reading, I remember that thread. it turned into a heated debate about contrast measurements / comparisons.

I saw an IN83 recently that was selling for cheap but passed because it would never work in my setup, I have no room above my screen, it's almost from the floor to the ceiling.
post #4114 of 8033
There was an odd quirk about the IN82/IN83 that I didn't like. It's some type of odd processing anomaly that looks like aliasing on long straight edges. I think it's an artifact of oversharpening that's inherent in the processing. Even when turning sharpness way down in the menus the issue was never fully gone and it annoyed me quite a bit. Also, I didn't think that it looked all that sharp for a DLP unit. The optics seemed pretty sub-par, which was a shame because it was using a .95' DMD and DC4 in the IN83. It looked only slightly sharper than some of the nicer .65" DLPs I've seen, nothing close to the performance of the Planar, Marantz or Samsung units. Though it did have decent PQ and decent contrast performance but they were never projectors I thought exuded quality in both the construction and picture.
post #4115 of 8033
I've been given the opportunity to try out an Epson 5020 for a couple of weeks in my theater. I just fired it up this afternoon in a light controlled basement theater at 120" 16:9 on a Seymour AT screen. I ran it in the THX mode

BD look great in my opinion....however....Comcast on demand Game of Thrones in HD looked pretty horrible as did Harry Potter on demand. It almost seemed in darker scenes there was a kind of foggy jittery haze in areas. Quite noticeable and blacks definitely didn't seem to black, more like foggy grey.

Could this be the cable box source causing it to look so bad? Is there a setting I'm missing somewhere? I haven't noticed this quality difference on my 60" LCD with cable signals

I'd like to give this projector a fair shot in my theater Vs some of the others in this thread especially considering the high lumen output for 3D. Any suggestions for settings would greatly be appreciated. Or maybe any thing to test on the projector to make sure nothing is defective.
post #4116 of 8033
Try altering gamma presets and make sure the cable box isn't passing a different black level. Although yes on a projector a cable signal definitely will often not look as good, especially if you watch the image close and compare it to a 60" screen. Also, both LCOS and LCD are not quite as capable at handling poorer sources as a DLP (IMHO), the LCD and LCOS seem to lose dimensionality as you lose quality, whereas DLP just seems to maintain that dimensionality but in a rough kind of noisy way.
post #4117 of 8033
Has the Sharp 30K replaced the Sony HW50ES as the best single-projector solution for varied viewing?

I'd say my priorities are 40% watching 2D Blu Rays, 40% watching HD sports, and 20% watching 3D Blu Rays. I'm leaning toward the Sony, but the reports of flicker in 3D have me hesitating. I went off the W7000 due to its vastly inferior contrast.
post #4118 of 8033
The Sharp 20K was the first consumer projected image that blew my mind when I saw it in an AV store. I couldn't believe a projected image could have contrast, black levels, clarity and vividness like that. It turned my mind around a corner from upgrading to a larger plasma to more seriously investigating front projection. The images still stick in my mind as among the best I've seen.
post #4119 of 8033
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktoolsie View Post

Has the Sharp 30K replaced the Sony HW50ES as the best single-projector solution for varied viewing?

I'd say my priorities are 40% watching 2D Blu Rays, 40% watching HD sports, and 20% watching 3D Blu Rays. I'm leaning toward the Sony, but the reports of flicker in 3D have me hesitating. I went off the W7000 due to its vastly inferior contrast.

it depends... smile.gif

Here's some quick comparison info:

Price - Sony HW50 is quite a bit more expensive than the Sharp 30k at the current woot deal, that alone could be a decision maker for some folks.

2D brightness - Both are very close @ D65. HW50 is ~1000, 30k is ~950. Pretty much a tie @ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9

3D brightness - calibrated behind the glasses, the HW50 is ~800 lumens, 30k is ~600 lumens. There is 200 lumen difference. This can easily be mitigated for those with HP screens.

Color - HW50 is one of the best projectors this year with out of the box color / gamma. The 30K needs some tweaking, but still looks good out of the box imo.

Contrast - HW50 has an advantage but the 30k is one of the best DLP's i've seen in this price category, noticeably better than the W7000. 30K is comparable to the Sony HW30 for those that have seen this model.

Sharpness - 30k easily wins for natural sharpness. The HW50 has a lens that I would consider average+ on sharpness, this is why they put in the reality creation which does a heck of job fooling the eye. This does have side effects, especially if you have a large screen w/ close seating distance. The RC artifacts can show up with certain content and becomes more evident in 3D. The sharpness on the 30K in 3D mode is outstanding.

3D flicker - some are sensitive to this, I am. Sony is better than JVC, Epson is better than Sony, none are as good as the 30K which is flawless in this regard.

3D crosstalk - HW50 is impressive for an SXRD projector, but still can't handle crosstalk as well as the 30K.

Motion - no real winner in 2D, both seem similar to me, but 30K wins in 3D. I used to like the FI on the HW30 but it's a little too aggressive on the HW50. 30k, for whatever pull down process they are using, doesn't need FI. It looks very natural in 3D.

hope that helps.
post #4120 of 8033
In other words... if you are going to be watching a good bit of 3D, ceiling mounting and do not own a high gain screen you're likely to find the 30K a bit on the dim side (unless of course the screen is relatively small... at or under 100"). wink.gif

* Before anyone thinks I am trying to 'knock' the 30K, I'm not at all, this is just the way it is. I am actually considering the 30K myself after all of zombie's great feedback (even though I watch very little 3D).

Jason
post #4121 of 8033
Thread Starter 
The sony loses a good deal of lumens after the 3D cal, similar situation would apply in that scenario.
post #4122 of 8033
Well I think they all do but a 33% brighter 3D image is likely to be welcome by most.

However the question is does that factor outweigh the 3D performance variance between them...?

That is something that each of us has to determine.

Jason
post #4123 of 8033
I'm still fiddling around with some of the settings on the Epson 5020 I have on trial. All and all this is a pretty impressive unit.

Two questions:

What is considered acceptable vs bad convergance on the panels. I'm displaying the built test pattern to adjust the LCD panels and it looks as if the red and the blue are off about a line each. Not sure how to explain this, its like I can see all 3 red, green, and blue lines. they are touching, but I can see them individually. Is this considered bad or within tolerances?

Secondly, I am running my comcast HD box into my Onkyo 5009 then out to projector. I also have a PS3 for now (planning on new BD player) running to Onkyo then to PJ. Should I turn off all processing in the AV or PS3 and let the PJ do it? Should I have all signals converted to 1080P then sent to PJ? What's the best way, or otherwise put, what does the Epson like to see as an input signal?

I'm just trying to get the basics down while I have it on trial.

Thanks!
post #4124 of 8033
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomdaf View Post

I'm still fiddling around with some of the settings on the Epson 5020 I have on trial. All and all this is a pretty impressive unit.

Two questions:

What is considered acceptable vs bad convergance on the panels. I'm displaying the built test pattern to adjust the LCD panels and it looks as if the red and the blue are off about a line each. Not sure how to explain this, its like I can see all 3 red, green, and blue lines. they are touching, but I can see them individually. Is this considered bad or within tolerances?

Secondly, I am running my comcast HD box into my Onkyo 5009 then out to projector. I also have a PS3 for now (planning on new BD player) running to Onkyo then to PJ. Should I turn off all processing in the AV or PS3 and let the PJ do it? Should I have all signals converted to 1080P then sent to PJ? What's the best way, or otherwise put, what does the Epson like to see as an input signal?

I'm just trying to get the basics down while I have it on trial.

Thanks!

Try not to get too caught up in convergence on the Epson, the wide pixel spacing alone can make it look worse than it on close inspection. How does it look @ 1/2 way from the screen to seating distance? Anything obvious in with real content? (color fringing with high contrast scenes). red and green will be more noticeable than blue.

You'll get different opinions on the processing settings, I would turn off any processing in the AV. Start with a top shelf quality bluray ( Imax scenes in Dark Knight Rises, Samsara, Art of Flight) and experiment with the different settings to see which combo works best. Comcast compresses their signal and flaws will be magnified on the big screen. There's only so much you can do maximize the PQ.
post #4125 of 8033
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Well I think they all do but a 33% brighter 3D image is likely to be welcome by most.

However the question is does that factor outweigh the 3D performance variance between them...?

That is something that each of us has to determine.

Jason

no doubt, I've been a 3D fan since the beginning. I was clear to point out the limited 3D lumen output on the 30k right away so others can see if it will work in their setup.

In my particular setup where I have the 30k dead center on the 2.8 for max gain, I can get away with this model and enjoy the 3D which it does so well. major strengths are flicker & crosstalk free PQ and very naturally sharp vs the HW50.

if I ever spring for the Lumis 3D solo, I'll 'settle down' to one projector.... biggrin.gif
post #4126 of 8033
zombie10k,

How would you rate the sharpness of the Sharp 30K vs the latest JVC has offered (e.g. our RS55's and up)? Does DLP still have the edge in image sharpness anymore?
post #4127 of 8033
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

zombie10k,

How would you rate the sharpness of the Sharp 30K vs the latest JVC has offered (e.g. our RS55's and up)? Does DLP still have the edge in image sharpness anymore?

you had to ask, now we're going to be lectured how .65 DLP's are crap, .95 is the only DLP worth watching for sharpness.... biggrin.gif

kidding aside, both of these samples are excellent, I can get a solid pixel focus down to the corners of the 142" 16:9 which I think is impressive. I've seen various samples that can't do this in my setup and I can definitely see a difference in overall sharpness at this close seating distance. Knowing this, i'm cautious to rate a specific series in this category since sample variance can make quite a difference.

I would say with e-shift off, they are similar overall in sharpness With good 2D BD's though, I'm always preferring the e-shift. I still like turning it on-off when watching content because there is such a nice difference when it's on. It's not so much the additional perceived sharpness, but I like what the increased pixel density does to the image. It's hard to describe it for others, I've done my best to photograph it in the link in my signature.

Tomorrow night I plan on an A/B in 2D on both models using the 4K mastered 'Angels and Demons' as a reference. Stay tuned, I'll most some more feedback on this topic.

sharp-jvc.jpg
post #4128 of 8033
Thanks Zombie. I don't see any "fringing". I would say the image looks a little soft for lack of a better word. But then again I really don't have a point of refference. Would convergence issues cause the soft look? I haven't done any calibration, just running in THX mode.

On the other hand, I put in Wreck it Ralph 3D for my daughter and we were both blown away. The 3D is amazing! The glasses that came with it are pretty nice as well. I even zoomed it and pulled the panels back to a full 138" wide screen and it had plenty horse power to light it up nicely. I can't imagine 3D looking much better in a home theater (although i'm sure some will say differently:))
post #4129 of 8033
Thread Starter 
The 5020 is a great 3D projector with plenty of lumen output. The RF glasses are nice and comfortable as well.

if you're certain the focus is good, then look through the menus. There's a number of sharpening controls that might not be set to your liking. Find the controls for 'Super Resolution' and try setting it to 2 and see how it looks at seating distance. This sharpening process works well when used in moderation.

138" wide screen is pretty big screen. You might consider adding the Darbee video processor. For a low cost, this device adds a very nice bump in perceived sharpness to the overall PQ.
post #4130 of 8033
any whispers of new 2014 models from epson or jvc guys ? in time for cedia 2013 in sept. only few months away...
post #4131 of 8033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

There was an odd quirk about the IN82/IN83 that I didn't like. It's some type of odd processing anomaly that looks like aliasing on long straight edges. I think it's an artifact of oversharpening that's inherent in the processing. Even when turning sharpness way down in the menus the issue was never fully gone and it annoyed me quite a bit. Also, I didn't think that it looked all that sharp for a DLP unit. The optics seemed pretty sub-par, which was a shame because it was using a .95' DMD and DC4 in the IN83. It looked only slightly sharper than some of the nicer .65" DLPs I've seen, nothing close to the performance of the Planar, Marantz or Samsung units. Though it did have decent PQ and decent contrast performance but they were never projectors I thought exuded quality in both the construction and picture.
While I do not have an IN83/82, I have an X10 which shares many components. I do not know if they have the same processing, but I see the artifacts as well... not too bad, but certainly not top shelf. As far as sharpness is concerned, I think you may have been the unfortunate victim of sample variance... my X10 is tack sharp. Without having done a side-by-side, I'd say it is equal sharpness to my LS-1. I've not seen the uber-nice optics such as those on the Marantz DLPs, but I cannot imagine anyone being dissuaded by lack of sharpness with the X10 (and presumably its bigger brothers... IN8x). Will be interesting to see zombie's comparison with your 20k.
post #4132 of 8033
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

it depends... smile.gif

Here's some quick comparison info:

Price - Sony HW50 is quite a bit more expensive than the Sharp 30k at the current woot deal, that alone could be a decision maker for some folks.

2D brightness - Both are very close @ D65. HW50 is ~1000, 30k is ~950. Pretty much a tie @ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9

3D brightness - calibrated behind the glasses, the HW50 is ~800 lumens, 30k is ~600 lumens. There is 200 lumen difference. This can easily be mitigated for those with HP screens.

Color - HW50 is one of the best projectors this year with out of the box color / gamma. The 30K needs some tweaking, but still looks good out of the box imo.

Contrast - HW50 has an advantage but the 30k is one of the best DLP's i've seen in this price category, noticeably better than the W7000. 30K is comparable to the Sony HW30 for those that have seen this model.

Sharpness - 30k easily wins for natural sharpness. The HW50 has a lens that I would consider average+ on sharpness, this is why they put in the reality creation which does a heck of job fooling the eye. This does have side effects, especially if you have a large screen w/ close seating distance. The RC artifacts can show up with certain content and becomes more evident in 3D. The sharpness on the 30K in 3D mode is outstanding.

3D flicker - some are sensitive to this, I am. Sony is better than JVC, Epson is better than Sony, none are as good as the 30K which is flawless in this regard.

3D crosstalk - HW50 is impressive for an SXRD projector, but still can't handle crosstalk as well as the 30K.

Motion - no real winner in 2D, both seem similar to me, but 30K wins in 3D. I used to like the FI on the HW30 but it's a little too aggressive on the HW50. 30k, for whatever pull down process they are using, doesn't need FI. It looks very natural in 3D.

hope that helps.

Awesome! That helps a lot.

Sounds as if the two are pretty evenly matched, albeit with different areas of strength and weaknesses.

For 2D, the Sony puts out a more color accurate picture with somewhat improved contrast. The Sharp has superior sharpness and typical DLP "pop".

For 3D, the Sony is brighter (which is big for 3D) but is more prone to artifacts (flicker & cross-talk).

Price, the Sharp wins pretty comfortably even accounting for the extra bulb that comes with the Sony. Sony has a 3 year warranty, think Sharp is 2YRS, but maybe 3.

I've had to rule out the Sharp as it doesn't support the vertical offset I desire with my ceiling mount. I like my projectors up out of the way.

Which puts the Sony out in front again for me, if I can find one at my price target or maybe try and score one of the Mitsubishi units with the Sony panel (HC5).
post #4133 of 8033
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktoolsie View Post

Awesome! That helps a lot.

Sounds as if the two are pretty evenly matched, albeit with different areas of strength and weaknesses.

For 2D, the Sony puts out a more color accurate picture with somewhat improved contrast. The Sharp has superior sharpness and typical DLP "pop".

For 3D, the Sony is brighter (which is big for 3D) but is more prone to artifacts (flicker & cross-talk).

Price, the Sharp wins pretty comfortably even accounting for the extra bulb that comes with the Sony. Sony has a 3 year warranty, think Sharp is 2YRS, but maybe 3.

I've had to rule out the Sharp as it doesn't support the vertical offset I desire with my ceiling mount. I like my projectors up out of the way.

Which puts the Sony out in front again for me, if I can find one at my price target or maybe try and score one of the Mitsubishi units with the Sony panel (HC5).

My $.02:
The Sharp has considerable vertical shift for a DLP. We have ours way up there (cathedral ceiling mount). As long as you have the center of the lens within the top edge of the screen (our set up), it will work fine. I've seen it reported that there is even a "fudge factor" beyond that to allow for 1-2" above the top edge of the screen...
It may come down to the content that you watch. For movies, perhaps the Sony will have more of a "film" feel. For HD sports, it's hard to imagine a "sharper" image than the Z30K (projector humor).
You can't go wrong with either choice...

As far as the killer sub goes. Been there done that. We had a top end SVS, but it took up a lot of space and the neighbors complained form the next house over. Plus, I was worried about the windows and the foundation. eek.gif
Got a smaller 12 inch HSU sub and put Buttkickers on the couch. INMO, a more immersive and cost effective solution. biggrin.gif
Edited by humbland - 5/18/13 at 8:04am
post #4134 of 8033
I am an owner of a VPL-VW100 that was purchased in 2006 in San Diego. The second after market lamp just went out in the unit. Before plunking down $900 for a new one I decided I should take a look at the newer model’s performance relative to mine with an eye towards upgrading. After reading through this forum and various reviews I zeroed in on the VPL-HW50ES.

To my surprise I have not been able to locate a place demoing one in San Diego or LA. The dealer who installed my VW100 does not have one. The Best Buy Magnolia in San Diego does not have one. The sales guy, who I talked to, had just returned from Epson training and was gung ho on the 6020 but could not even demo it. Fry’s does not have one. The brand new Sony stores that are opening everywhere do not carry projectors. No room to display them I am told. A call to the LA Century City store confirmed that they do have one. The guy I spoke with even went and talked to higher ups about where I might see one in operation in LA or Orange County and came up with nothing. It amazing to me that these things can be sold if people can’t see them in operation.

Does anyone here know where I can see a demo unit in San Diego or LA? Perhaps an owner here might be willing to give me a demo or comment on a similar experience to mine.

Dedicated home theater:
Sony VPL-VW100
Stewart Custom Luxus Firehawk 90”
Screen to first row – 10’
LG BD640 Blu-Ray player
Scientific Atlanta 8300 Cable/DVR
Denon DCM 280 5-disc CD changer
Denon AVR 4806
Monster Power HTS 3600 MKII
Boston Acoustics SA 1 Subwoofer amplifier
Boston Acoustics speakers - 7 front wall, ceiling and back wall flush mount
Universal MX-980 remote
Universal MRF 300 IR Relay
Elan Z Series 2 cooling Fan
post #4135 of 8033
Hmm I thought the Sony Store at South Coast Plaza in OC used to have a projection room setup, but maybe not anymore
post #4136 of 8033
I've played around with the Epson 5020 a little more. The problems I was having before must be source related (comcast). BD look fantastic no artifacting at all in the darker seens. no complaints.

Also, for those considering a projector for gaming I tried out CoD online and saw no noticable lag. Seemed to be just fine. I just turned image processing to "fast" instead of "fine"

I do have another question. It seems when CFI is turned completely off, there is a decent amount of "jumpiness" to the image. For example, when the white credits are rolling at the end of a movie it becomes very noticable.They seem to jitter as they scrool down the screen. Is this something that is unique to the Epson projector or are others the same? Zombie - did you notice this in your tests? All I have to do is turn CFI on level 1 or 2 and it smooths out entirely and looks fine. Could this be due to 24 vs 60 frame, etc etc? I'm new to projectors so was just looking for suggestions or comments.

So far i'm really liking the Epson, especially in 3D
post #4137 of 8033
Brad,
I will check out the South Coast Plaza store. As I said, when the Sony Century City store, which I thought was probably the top dog store in the LA basin, came up empty I decided to appeal here for help.
Thanks for your reply.
post #4138 of 8033
Thread Starter 
I have a new contrast / black floor torture test. Check out 'The Last Stand' (2013) with Arnold. A good portion of this movie has low APL scenes.

This movie had a higher production value than I was expecting, overall a very sharp BD transfer with plenty of detail in the shadows if you have the gamma tweaked just right.

The RS55 looks excellent with this movie @ -11 on the iris. I haven't enjoyed an action movie this much in a while, definitely a recommended viewing.
post #4139 of 8033
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I have a new contrast / black floor torture test. Check out 'The Last Stand' (2013) with Arnold. A good portion of this movie has low APL scenes.

This movie had a higher production value than I was expecting, overall a very sharp BD transfer with plenty of detail in the shadows if you have the gamma tweaked just right.

The RS55 looks excellent with this movie @ -11 on the iris. I haven't enjoyed an action movie this much in a while, definitely a recommended viewing.

Thanks for the rec Zombie! Just put this in my que.

Question.......I noticed in the Sharp thread you mentioned how you tweak your gamma to 2.1 ~30 IRE and below and was curious if you use this same tweak for the RS55 to help bring out a bit more shadow detail?

Thanks
post #4140 of 8033
Hi Jason,

Did you sell your BenQ?

Tom
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