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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 141

post #4201 of 8026
Sounds good, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about the HC-5 against your JVC RS55.
post #4202 of 8026
Thread Starter 
I'm not sure if anything actually changed with the PQ between the HC9000 and the HC5. At least in regard to 3D, everything I'm finding so far matches this review:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2011/07/hdtv-expert-product-review-mitsubishi-hc9000-diamond-3d-projector.php

it's odd, even though the projector is putting out ~900 lumens in 3D mode, there is a substantial and drastic drop in light with the Xpand 104 and MV3D glasses. More so than I've seen on any of the other projectors. Both glasses are reacting identical with this light drop. Even with the glasses brightness set to 5.5 which is the 'brightest'.

Some quick measurements (from the projector, no gain is taken into account for)

160 Lux measured at the screen on a 100% IRE screen in 3D frame packed mode. (screen is 5.59 Sq Meters) = 894 lumens

The glasses drop the light down to 12-13 lux.

The Sharp 30k is ~130 Lux = 726 lumens. The HC5 should technically appear brighter? but it doesn't. The Sharp glasses don't drop the light nearly as much so the perceived image is brighter through the glasses. (btw, MV3D's perform identical on the 30K, so they do adapt based on the signal they are provided by the projector).

I did this in a direct A/B setup with a split 3D source, covering each lens and swapping the glasses.

I haven't fully commented yet on the 3D because i'm not yet sure what to make of it. The MV3D's are performing a bit better than the Xpand 104, but not enough to make a difference. In other words, I am seeing obvious x-talk in scenes I didn't expect to see it.

I feel like I have to fork out the $100+ for the Mitsubishi glasses before making a final judgement. If there were no further improvements vs. the aftermarket, I would sooner just watch the 3D on the RS55 knowing it's limitation. Based on the current conditions, the RS46 owners are going to have a brighter image and experience less x-talk in comparison.

These observations are nearly identical to those that commented on the VW90 2+ years ago. I still have more work to do, I'll post some screenshots of what I'm seeing later.
post #4203 of 8026
I wouldn't be surprised if the Mitsubishi engineers and the Sony engineers were swapping notes on how to get 3D to work properly with these new SXRD panels. Or Mitsubishi just copied what Sony did and this is why were getting similar results compared to the VW90ES.
post #4204 of 8026
Thread Starter 
I had a chance to spend more time with 3D. I tried tuning the MV3D glasses, but can't exceed the default setting of the Xpand 104's.

HC-5-Sharp30K.jpg


Refresh Rates DLP vs. everything else

The camera in these videos is exaggerating the effect, but for those that are sensitive to refresh rates, projectors like the JVC, Mitsubishi and Sony can give me a headache after an hour or so of viewing. I'm sensitive to this, but do think that it lends to viewing discomfort for those that complain about watching 3D. 3D DLP appears rock solid in comparison. This is easy on the eyes for extended 3D viewing.


Mitsubishi HC5 L / R Patterns - 11 Seconds MP4

Sony HW50 L / R Patterns - 9 seconds MP4 (notice it's nearly identical to the Mitsubishi)

BenQ W7000 L / R Patterns - 9 seconds MP4 (Sharp 30K is identical, the eyes cannot detect any obvious flicker when in 3D mode.. the mirrors are fast)



The Art of Flight 3D (get this disk, excellent 3D conversion worth watching)

This is 2D mode, glasses are off. Notice how much the tint of the glasses changes the color. This color shift can be mostly calibrated out with the meter behind the glasses.

HC5-8.jpg

Large drop in light through the glasses.

HC5-9.jpg

HC5-10.jpg

HC5-11.jpg

HC5-12.jpg

HC5-13.jpg

HC5-14.jpg

HC5-15.jpg

HC5-17.jpg

HC5-18.jpg

The X-talk seems excessive but I don't have much reference to go by. If other HC9000 / HC5 owners can comment it would be appreciated. Please let me know what glasses you are using.

I'm using the factory Mitsubishi IR emitter and the IR receiver for the MV3D RF transmitter. Both glasses are showing identical performance on the HC5. When I transfer these over to the Sharp 30K, they behave completely different with brighter flicker free 3D with no x-talk.

edit: it's difficult the capture the subtle x-talk i'm seeing in general, but it's more than the photos are showing. I've tried adjusting the brightness setting in the menu and it helps a bit, but mainly just makes it darker.
Edited by zombie10k - 6/10/13 at 11:08pm
post #4205 of 8026
Zombie, I am seeing a similar performance with my MV3D glasses and RF emitter plugged in directly into the projector. I will post some photos later. I tried tinkering with the emitter myself but didn't get results much better than yours. I suppose we just have to accept the fact that HC5/HC9000's 3D is only there nominally.
What settings did you use to get 894 lumens? High lamp, open iris, color filter set to bright?
post #4206 of 8026
Quote:
The camera in these videos is exaggerating the effect, but for those that are sensitive to refresh rates, projectors like the JVC, Mitsubishi and Sony can give me a headache after an hour or so of viewing. I'm sensitive to this, but do think that it lends to viewing discomfort for those that complain about watching 3D. 3D DLP appears rock solid in comparison.

Just curious, do you feel discomfort watching 2D on LCOS and SXRD projectors ?
post #4207 of 8026
are dust blobs possible on the JVC and Sony projectors? All I have every had are LCD projectors.

what is the lamp noise on the 4810 JVC in high lamp mode?
post #4208 of 8026
I have that same performance in 3d with the original and panasonic d3d glasses. Mits hc5.
post #4209 of 8026
The only viable solution to get good 3D on this projector would be this thing, I think. But it costs more than the PJ itself. This is not true, actually. It's MSRP is $1,500. Might be worth a shot.
Edited by Elix - 6/11/13 at 2:17am
post #4210 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

The only viable solution to get good 3D on this projector would be this thing, I think. But it costs more than the PJ itself. This is not true, actually. It's MSRP is $1,500. Might be worth a shot.


You know, if this worked, it would be a better and cheaper alternative than a 3D DLP projector using active glasses, IMHO. Passive 3D is really where it's at.
post #4211 of 8026
I am trying to setup passive 3D myself, but haven't found a good budget screen that retains enough polarization for the needed use of 2 projectors. I don't really want to spend a fortune on a new screen just for passive 3D. Might have to make one.

@Dust Blobs
Dust blobs are technically possible on any projector (even a DLP), but they are VERY rare on LCOS and almost unheard of on most DLP's (some cheap DLP's aren't sealed as well). LCOS have mostly sealed light paths, whereas DLP has fully sealed, whereas LCD has a more open path to allow dust to get in.
Edited by coderguy - 6/11/13 at 6:39am
post #4212 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I am trying to setup passive 3D myself, but haven't found a good budget screen that retains enough polarization for the needed use of 2 projectors. I don't really want to spend a fortune on a new screen just for passive 3D. Might have to make one.
A couple of links of interest:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2719
http://www.screen-tech.eu/en/ST-Silver-Screen-3D.html
http://www.paintonscreen.com/techtalk.html
http://www.uma-services.de/
http://www.berezin.com/3d/screens.htm
http://mocomscreens.com/
post #4213 of 8026
Thanks.
post #4214 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'm not sure if anything actually changed with the PQ between the HC9000 and the HC5. At least in regard to 3D, everything I'm finding so far matches this review:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2011/07/hdtv-expert-product-review-mitsubishi-hc9000-diamond-3d-projector.php

it's odd, even though the projector is putting out ~900 lumens in 3D mode, there is a substantial and drastic drop in light with the Xpand 104 and MV3D glasses. More so than I've seen on any of the other projectors. Both glasses are reacting identical with this light drop. Even with the glasses brightness set to 5.5 which is the 'brightest'.

Some quick measurements (from the projector, no gain is taken into account for)

160 Lux measured at the screen on a 100% IRE screen in 3D frame packed mode. (screen is 5.59 Sq Meters) = 894 lumens

The glasses drop the light down to 12-13 lux.

Hmm.. Is it even watchable in 3D at ~ effective 1.5 fl? Anyone with the original Mits glasses seeing this?
Edited by wohlstad - 6/11/13 at 9:04am
post #4215 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

.............

it's odd, even though the projector is putting out ~900 lumens in 3D mode, there is a substantial and drastic drop in light with the Xpand 104 and MV3D glasses. More so than I've seen on any of the other projectors. Both glasses are reacting identical with this light drop. Even with the glasses brightness set to 5.5 which is the 'brightest'.

Some quick measurements (from the projector, no gain is taken into account for)

160 Lux measured at the screen on a 100% IRE screen in 3D frame packed mode. (screen is 5.59 Sq Meters) = 894 lumens

The glasses drop the light down to 12-13 lux.

.............................

What screen material are you using? If it retains polarization then perhaps the Mits polarization orientation is rotated 90 deg. from that of the internal filter of the Xpand 104 and MV3D glasses. You can check this by viewing 3D video on the screen thru one lens of the glasses while rotating the glasses 90 deg.. If the image gets brighter when you rotate the glasses from their normal viewing position, then you need different glasses, i.e., with their internal polarizing filter oriented corrected for this projector.
post #4216 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mob3001 View Post

I have that same performance in 3d with the original and panasonic d3d glasses. Mits hc5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Zombie, I am seeing a similar performance with my MV3D glasses and RF emitter plugged in directly into the projector. I will post some photos later. I tried tinkering with the emitter myself but didn't get results much better than yours. I suppose we just have to accept the fact that HC5/HC9000's 3D is only there nominally.
What settings did you use to get 894 lumens? High lamp, open iris, color filter set to bright?

thank you guys for responding, I wanted to make sure I didn't have a specific issue with this IR sender or some other problem.

Elix, I'll check the settings, it was definitely high lamp, open iris, I don't recall if I had the filter set to bright when measuring the lumen out. I was happy to see the 900 lumens, but was a little surprised to see how much the shutter glasses are being closed down by the projector (even with the brightness @ 5.5)

imo, there is always visible x-talk with this setup (some more subtle than the photos show) and had a pretty good headache after about an hour of checking out a number of popular 3D clips I use.

If this is truly the performance of this model, I would say the heavily criticized RS40 is better overall since the RS40's main struggle was with dark on light ghosting, but had ok performance in general. The HC5 from what I am seeing has general crosstalk issues throughout the entire image.
post #4217 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

What screen material are you using? If it retains polarization then perhaps the Mits polarization orientation is rotated 90 deg. from that of the internal filter of the Xpand 104 and MV3D glasses. You can check this by viewing 3D video on the screen thru one lens of the glasses while rotating the glasses 90 deg.. If the image gets brighter when you rotate the glasses from their normal viewing position, then you need different glasses, i.e., with their internal polarizing filter oriented corrected for this projector.

Ron, hi, thanks for the input. I did think of this and tried rotating the glasses, I don't see any difference. The JVC RS46/X35 and Sony HW50 do not shut down the XPand 104 and MV3D's as much as the HC5. The Sharp 30K to an even lesser extent. This is the 2.8HP which I think we've collectively agreed that it doesn't retain much, if any polarized light.

I'm going back through the old Sony VW90 threads, I recall the same discussing about dim 3D and how different it was on the VW95 (brighter w/ less x-talk). I'm curious what changes Sony made between those models since the HC5 3D seems very similar to the comments on the VW90.
post #4218 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P View Post

Just curious, do you feel discomfort watching 2D on LCOS and SXRD projectors ?

none, 2D looks great on the HW50, All the JVC's I've seen, HC5, etc. It's the refresh rate in 3D that does a number on my eyes / brain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wohlstad View Post

Hmm.. Is it even watchable in 3D at ~ effective 1.5 fl? Anyone with the original Mits glasses seeing this?

With the HC5 dead center on the 2.8HP, it's plenty watchable, but I'm always aware of how much light is being filtered through the glasses. The bright scenes in 'Art of flight' aren't so bright anymore. As I mentioned earlier, the technically 'less bright' Sharp 30K well exceeds the perceived brightness of the HC5 when viewed through the glasses since they don't drop the light as much.

i'm more concerned about the x-talk than I am the light drop. I was having trouble watching more than 30-45 minutes of clips before I had to turn it off.
post #4219 of 8026
Maybe it is the timings. There is an 3rd party emitter called trude for the mits. It is stated by the manufacturer, that mits uses timungs for 60Hz in 3D regardless if the source is actually 24p. The trude emitter is said to use proper timings for 24p and thus improve brightness.
However I wonder why the motion performance of the hc5 is quite good (which is a sign of fast panels) while having a higher amount of crosstalk than some DILAs with slower panels. Strange.
post #4220 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steak2 View Post

Maybe it is the timings. There is an 3rd party emitter called trude for the mits. It is stated by the manufacturer, that mits uses timungs for 60Hz in 3D regardless if the source is actually 24p. The trude emitter is said to use proper timings for 24p and thus improve brightness.
However I wonder why the motion performance of the hc5 is quite good (which is a sign of fast panels) while having a higher amount of crosstalk than some DILAs with slower panels. Strange.

Thanks for the info.

http://www.perfect-cinema.de/3d-projektor-zubehoer/trude-3d-ir-sender-fuer-sony.php

Do you know much these are?

trude.jpg
post #4221 of 8026
When are you going to setup a PASSIVE 3D setup?

I'm waiting for you to try 5 screens, 3 devices, and review PASSIVE 3D so I don't waste my money. Honestly I've about given up on 3D with one projector, heck I think at this point I'll gladly take the hit to convergence.
post #4222 of 8026
Around 180 € in Germany. I don't have one and unfortunately I don't know any review of those that actually measured the difference. It would be very interesting to know if that emitter works better.
post #4223 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Thanks for the info.

http://www.perfect-cinema.de/3d-projektor-zubehoer/trude-3d-ir-sender-fuer-sony.php

Do you know much these are?

trude.jpg

The link shows 239 EUR which is ~ $317 US Dollars. But with shipping, taxes, availability... I have no idea.
post #4224 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

When are you going to setup a PASSIVE 3D setup?

I'm waiting for you to try 5 screens, 3 devices, and review PASSIVE 3D so I don't waste my money. Honestly I've about given up on 3D with one projector, heck I think at this point I'll gladly take the hit to convergence.

I'm honestly satisfied with the Sharp 30K for 3D. The contrast is 'just right' for a DLP and the G20 glasses are awesome (IR vs. DLP link = big bonus, noticeably better black levels in 3D). This is the first projector i've bought more than 2 pairs of glasses for since I'll be keeping it for a while unless something magical pops up in the fall. The super-cheap OEM lamps is gravy.

For the passive setup, I'd be obsessing over the convergence / geometry setup. Plus the high retention screen requirements, it seems more hassle than the benefits i'm already enjoying with the 30k dead center on the HP.

I get the cost of the cheap glasses vs. the shutter glasses, but these G20's can be had for ~45 and have an excellent '2D' feature that I just used with some visitors the other day. 1 person didn't want to watch it in 3D, so I flipped the switch and they watched along with everyone else.

I've been corrupted by 3D DLP, the LCOS/SXRD camps have to find a way to reduce the flicker of the glasses. I've been hyper-sensitive to this. It's actually worse now that I blacked out the room. A Lumis 3D Solo would solve this whole 'single projector' solution... cool.gif
post #4225 of 8026
My deal is the shuttering of the glasses causes me eye fatigue, especially if I try a 3D game. I figure go passive and have no eye fatigue, but I honestly don't know yet.
post #4226 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by walterappleby View Post

The link shows 239 EUR which is ~ $317 US Dollars. But with shipping, taxes, availability... I have no idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steak2 View Post

Around 180 € in Germany. I don't have one and unfortunately I don't know any review of those that actually measured the difference. It would be very interesting to know if that emitter works better.

thanks guys. The price is pretty expensive but would have like to know if this would have made a noticeable difference. Someone obviously created this IR sender for a specific purpose.

Maybe this is what Sony changed going from the VW90 -> VW95. I recall comments from those that upgraded from the 90 to the 95, stating the 3D was much brighter with less x-talk. It would have been interesting to see what happened if Mitsubishi refreshed the HC9000 with an updated model.

I'm done with 3D, I'll switch gears back to 2D vs. the X35/RS46 and the RS55.
post #4227 of 8026
thanks coderguy for the info.

If the jvcrs4810 and the sony50 where the same price with emitter, pair of glasses and extra lamp which would you guys go far?
post #4228 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Ron, hi, thanks for the input. I did think of this and tried rotating the glasses, I don't see any difference. The JVC RS46/X35 and Sony HW50 do not shut down the XPand 104 and MV3D's as much as the HC5. The Sharp 30K to an even lesser extent. This is the 2.8HP which I think we've collectively agreed that it doesn't retain much, if any polarized light.

I'm going back through the old Sony VW90 threads, I recall the same discussing about dim 3D and how different it was on the VW95 (brighter w/ less x-talk). I'm curious what changes Sony made between those models since the HC5 3D seems very similar to the comments on the VW90.

You are certainly correct that the HP does not retain any significant polarization. It sounds like the glasses are blanking for too long between frames (or not opening until too late) and thus resulting in the lens staying open (transparent) for too short a time.
post #4229 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryep View Post


If the jvcrs4810 and the sony50 where the same price with emitter, pair of glasses and extra lamp which would you guys go far?

At the same price, I might lean towards the 4810 depending on the setup. With the current 3D firmware and the crosstalk controls set to '6', it's not much dimmer in 3D vs. the HW50. The HW50 drops to ~800 lumens in 3D with a D65 calibration through the glasses.
post #4230 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

At the same price, I might lean towards the 4810 depending on the setup. With the current 3D firmware and the crosstalk controls set to '6', it's not much dimmer in 3D vs. the HW50. The HW50 drops to ~800 lumens in 3D with a D65 calibration through the glasses.

with all your shootouts with the jvc4810 did you run the lamp in normal or high mode when comparing?

I have asked this question in the JVC 4810 thread: what db is high lamp mode? under 29db should be fine, since my Sanyo plv70 runs at 35db.

sorry for all the questions but it has taken me 12 years to upgrade. that Sanyo has given me about 18000 hours of viewing and roughly 15 lamp purchased. shoot, it might be more!!eek.gif
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