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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 165

post #4921 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5mark View Post

After going 2.5 years, I would wait a little longer and save for a JVC with eshift, which IMO is the right machine for your setup. I still love my RS55 and likely won't upgrade until true 4k becomes more affordable. My setup is similar with a 125" wide 2.35 screen viewed from 10.5 ft. But I used to spend a lot of time sitting closer and marveling at how much detail was visible while still remaining film like.

Yeah, that might be what I have to do. I was hoping to upgrade now though because I am moving into a new house next week and will for the first time have a dedicated theater room, albeit a small one. Room will be a total black hole, with velvet for all critical areas and black felt for the rest. The screen will have to be a bit smaller than I'm used to, so we'll be sitting closer to make up for it. I was hoping to do the projector upgrade simultaneously with the room upgrade for maximum difference over my current setup.

Humbland, I certainly have nothing against DLP, but I'm not sure I would see a striking enough difference from my HC4000 to make me feel the upgrade expense had been justified. Also I'm not sure I would ever feel comfortable buying a used PJ with no warranty given the problems many of them have.
Edited by curttard - 10/16/13 at 10:57am
post #4922 of 8043
We have some more HW50ES projectors coming in. Looks like we will soon be coming to the end of availability on this model.
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post #4923 of 8043
Zombie, how do you feel about the Sharp as an upgrade from the Mits HC4000? Obviously the 3D and the motorized lens are a huge plus, but how about the image for 2D? Would it be a "wow" difference in your opinion at around 106" wide on a 2.35 screen from 8-9 feet away?
post #4924 of 8043
post #4925 of 8043
Looking for some advice. I have a light controlled room, but my wife likes to knit so the lights are very dimly on at the back of the room. We mostly watch movies and a little bit of TV. I have a 109" carada brilliant white screen.
I mostly watch 2d but would like to watch some 3d. In my budget I could get the epson 6030, the sony hw55es or a very gently used (200hr) jvc 4810.
Any suggestions.?
Thanks in advance!
post #4926 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhitch View Post

Looking for some advice. I have a light controlled room, but my wife likes to knit so the lights are very dimly on at the back of the room. We mostly watch movies and a little bit of TV. I have a 109" carada brilliant white screen.
I mostly watch 2d but would like to watch some 3d. In my budget I could get the epson 6030, the sony hw55es or a very gently used (200hr) jvc 4810.
Any suggestions.?
Thanks in advance!

Sent you a PM. smile.gif
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post #4927 of 8043
Cin4Home review of the new Epson (9200 = 5030):


"- Its contrast ratio was increased not only on the "dynamic" page, meaning the marketing inflationary values ​​increased by blending tricks, but also refills on the native side. This increases the epitome of contrast and improved black level, because the maximum brightness remained the same. If you want to benefit from the increased contrast, but be careful: only the filter modes (ie Cinema / Natural mode with internal Cinema filter or LPE mode with external filter) provide for the Maximization and contrast advantages over its predecessor at the same time good colors. The newly coated LPE filter wears appropriate to the higher contrast ratio and ensures the highest plasticity and brightness.

- The optical image sharpness was also improved markedly, "halos" or "flares" no trace. Along with a good signal processing includes the TW9200 LPE in terms of sharpness on now. Maximization of only a horizontal lens Shiftes you should still be avoided.

- The 3D representation was enriched by a solid intermediate image computation, which eliminates the pull-jerkiness of predecessors and combines fluid and realistic movements at 60Hz Shutterfrequenz. This makes the 3D solution of the 9200ers particularly easy on the eyes. The LPE filter can also be used for 3D and this makes for the highest possible light output with natural colors."

It seems Epson has done some substantial "tweaking" to an already pretty good product.
post #4928 of 8043
It would be interesting to know whether they also improved signal-processing speed. Input Lag is an issue with Epson but maybe they improved this iteration ever so slightly?
post #4929 of 8043
What was the consensus on the 144hz DLP projectors like the Benq 1080st? Are the 144hz triple flash the best 3D projectors out there? Read some negative things with red tinge to the image but it seems it can be calibrated to get rid of it. Does the Epson or Sony compare to these "new" DLPs for 3D?
post #4930 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Zombie, how do you feel about the Sharp as an upgrade from the Mits HC4000? Obviously the 3D and the motorized lens are a huge plus, but how about the image for 2D? Would it be a "wow" difference in your opinion at around 106" wide on a 2.35 screen from 8-9 feet away?

He never had a Mits hc4000, but I have a pretty good idea that the blacks on the Sharp are similar to a Panasonic ae7000u when the Panny is in Rec 709 Mode (in that mode it does about 9000:1 on/off). The Sharp will do slightly darker blacks than the Mits, but not really anything to write home about over the Mits. The main difference will be the fact that the Sharp has a more uniform lens focus. The calibration controls on the Sharp are not as good as the hc4000, and the hc4000 calibrates more accurately.

I doubt you'd see a WOW difference, but you will see some.

3D
The best 3D on a projector should do both FI and 144hz (not sure there are any that do yet) and NOT use DLP Link... 144hz has slightly less eye strain for some, but it doesn't magically make the 3D image better, the other stuff still applies (PJ's natural motion in 3D, PJ's contrast in 3D, PJ's color in 3D, PJ's brightness in 3D)...

For 3D, I'd really like someone to try an Optoma eh501 which is rated at 5000 lumens and has DC 3 with the an updated lamp dimming tech that is supposed to do around 8,000:1 dynamic on/off real-world (not bad for a DLP without an IRIS), 15,000:1 rated. It also has lens shift, but not center-based. It is a presentation projector crossed with a 3D home theater projector (it's a weird morph). According to Optoma's user manual, it does 144hz, not sure if it also has FI. It supports IR or DLP Link, so I'm assuming for max contrast you can use IR (but IR doesn't work at 144hz I guess?), and then for max speed you can do DLP Link.

It is the only super bright sub $2000 DLP projector that I know of that can do 144hz (supposedly) and has lens shift, and when I say super bright, I mean really bright. It should put these other 3D projectors to shame in the brightness department, we are probably talking around 2000-3000 lumens even in 3D mode, and around 4500 lumens in 2D, it has a 280 watt lamp.
Edited by coderguy - 10/17/13 at 8:50am
post #4931 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

What was the consensus on the 144hz DLP projectors like the Benq 1080st? Are the 144hz triple flash the best 3D projectors out there? Read some negative things with red tinge to the image but it seems it can be calibrated to get rid of it. Does the Epson or Sony compare to these "new" DLPs for 3D?

I owned the BenQ W7000 and currently own the new Epson 5030. I always thought that the BenQ had outstanding 3D but it was lacking in brightness, black levels and shadow detail left something to be desired and I just didn't care for DLP Link because it strained my eyes and I never found a comfortable pair of glasses to use.

The Epson 5030 to me is the best representation of 3D in the home that I've seen thus far. Everything is great and it has very little crosstalk. Now that Epson has implemented Frame Interpolation and Super Resolution in 3D, with the RF glasses and just superb black levels and shadow detail coupled with a very sharp and bright 3D image, Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! The Epson glasses are great and very comfortable for someone like myself who wears prescription glasses. I also have some RF Samsung glasses that are just super lightweight and comfortable to wear.

I'm not stating that the BenQ W7000 or other DLP Projectors are subpar by any means in 3D, just now that Epson has made a few changes with their 3D, it's the clear winner for me. Good luck!
post #4932 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewDaddy View Post

The Epson 5030 to me is the best representation of 3D in the home that I've seen thus far. Everything is great and it has very little crosstalk. Now that Epson has implemented Frame Interpolation and Super Resolution in 3D, with the RF glasses and just superb black levels and shadow detail coupled with a very sharp and bright 3D image, Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! The Epson glasses are great and very comfortable for someone like myself who wears prescription glasses. I also have some RF Samsung glasses that are just super lightweight and comfortable to wear.

I'm not stating that the BenQ W7000 or other DLP Projectors are subpar by any means in 3D, just now that Epson has made a few changes with their 3D, it's the clear winner for me.

The Benq w7000 is not Triple Flash / 144hz, this is reserved only for the latest Benqs (w1070, w1080, assuming w1400/1500?)...

The Epson is good for watching 3D movies on relatively new lamps, once the lamp wears in the ghosting will appear. Also, doing any 3D gaming on a NON-DLP is not realistic IMO, because you have to focus on such small details with your eyes that even a 1mm misaligned ghosting will strain them on tiny objects.
post #4933 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post



The Epson is good for watching 3D movies on relatively new lamps, once the lamp wears in the ghosting will appear.



This is definitely a big fear of mine with non DLP 3d projectors now after seeing my 40 and 45 self destruct. Not to mention anything above "zero ghosting" now after getting used to my DLP is too much. I will get interested in non DLP projectors for 3d IF they can ever truly eliminate ghosting which seems unlikely due to the tech limitations. Time will tell.

I am curious to hear more about the 7500 though (7000 replacement) and what improvements have been made.
post #4934 of 8043
Good find on the optoma! It has DVI also! Coderguy. Can u find out if this projector will do 1080p 60hz in 3D over DVI? U will be the saviour to us PC 3d gamers if this does work. I'll buy one if it does, that's for sure.
post #4935 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The Benq w7000 is not Triple Flash / 144hz, this is reserved only for the latest Benqs (w1070, w1080, assuming w1400/1500?)...

The Epson is good for watching 3D movies on relatively new lamps, once the lamp wears in the ghosting will appear. Also, doing any 3D gaming on a NON-DLP is not realistic IMO, because you have to focus on such small details with your eyes that even a 1mm misaligned ghosting will strain them on tiny objects.

Now I am confused, how does ghosting differ from misaligned ghosting. Visible cross talk is ghosting. There could be some cross talk that our eyes wouldn't see and thus our eyes wouldn't see the artifact of ghosting. But once you can see it, it appears as two images separated by some distance which changes as the image size is say zoomed larger or small. But it isn't misalignment. What you are saying is the tiniest amount of ghosting will strain your peepers if focusing on small objects such as err facial whiskers.

Please start posting in the threads for our 4K projectors. We miss all those opportunities to correct you. smile.gif
post #4936 of 8043
Believe it or not, it appears to be able to do 1920x1080 with DVI-D!
I found this statement in the user manual, note that it says it supports up to 1920x1200 @ 60hz in 3D mode (crazy huh), and it only denotes a reduced blanking mode for 1920x1200, not for 1920x1080. (I make no guarantees express or implied that it does this).

(*)1920 x 1200 @60hz only support reduced blanking
(**) 3D timing for True 3D projector

This projector is truly loaded with features, my biggest concern or drawback is going to be RBE (I suspect, but have no idea that it might have a 3x color wheel). I hope it has a 4x and isn't rainbow city for those of us that are sensitive.

I am fairly confident this projector can do 4500-5000 Lumens in 2D, and if going by the formula that almost every DLP projector can do at least 40% of the max lumens, the projector should do at least 2000 lumens in 3D. I do suspect you will take a slight color accuracy hit with this projector because it likely has a white segment in the color wheel, but do not fear, the projectors of today with white segments are not nearly as bad as the projectors of yesterday with white segments. The manufactures have tweaked the color tables and the lamp modes to counter-act some of the ill-effects of the white segment, as well as the color tables in general are much more accurate across all projectors, so this does not concern me too much (but don't expect perfect color, expect something similar to the Sharp probably). It also does appear to have a FULL CMS and it comes with Brilliant Color in 10 steps which appears to work in 3D too.

Theoretically, it should be brighter than a Benq w7000 used on an HP 2.4 gain screen (on the 2.8 will be closer). This PJ only has a 7.4" default offset, so that means at the mounting position on a 2.8 HP screen, and in theory the lumens are about 1.5 gain on the HP 2.4 x 2000 to x 3000 lumens, so holy cow, maybe 4500 equivalent lumens coming off the HP before the glasses?
Edited by coderguy - 10/17/13 at 9:44am
post #4937 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Now I am confused, how does ghosting differ from misaligned ghosting. Visible cross talk is ghosting. There could be some cross talk that our eyes wouldn't see and thus our eyes wouldn't see the artifact of ghosting. But once you can see it, it appears as two images separated by some distance which changes as the image size is say zoomed larger or small. But it isn't misalignment. What you are saying is the tiniest amount of ghosting will strain your peepers if focusing on small objects such as err facial whiskers.

It is not exactly the same even though it is the same cause, if you ever played a Flight Simulator you will know why when looking down the runway in 3D because the ghosting changes at an exact amount with the depth. The reason is because in Computers the 3D is based on a render and the objects are usually precisely linear in the angles in order to preserve a true 3D world map that can be moved upon. It is the precise hard angles and linear nature of the Z-order depth map that cause the ghosting to be so precisely spotted in a game.

It is almost like the difference between spotting something on a test pattern (3D gaming is almost like a test pattern for ghosting, so to speak). In your example, it is like saying that a test pattern should ghost the same as a movie, nope only the most extreme possible shot in a movie might ghost, but in a game it is almost like "always a test pattern / always an extreme shot", because you are pretty much always dealing with hard angles at consistent depths.

When objects ghost in a game they do so in a somewhat consistent lateral dimension and break apart at the ends due to the differences of the Z-depth effect to the ghosting, it is very easy to see by eye. In movies the dimension is not EXACTLY angular nor is it drawn out like most shots in games. Most gaming has either a constant pop-out effect or a consistently repeating one on certain objects, though you can adjust it by reducing the overall effect (but at some point you lose the 3D feel of it). The difference of how our eyes interpret the presentation of the Z-depth plane when looking at angles is one thing that causes a device to ghost more severely, and the Z-plane is much deeper on average in PC shots because the rendering engines have to render things consistently to provide smooth non-ending game worlds. This is not even exactly the same as CG used in movies, because in CG movie backgrounds they are not rendered with perfectly congruent shapes - because unlike games you are not allowed to control the camera so they do not have to abide by the linear angular nature of a 3D world map that a game does, hence they can take liberties on the backgrounds even in CG animation, so you lose a baseline comparison to your eyes and a lot of ghosting goes unnoticed just like movies.

Though I don't have an exact word for lateral uniform ghosting dimensionally breaking up at varying Z-depths, I gave it a generic name.

BTW, the correcting me thing was a cheap shot, be warned you will get it soon smile.gif
Edited by coderguy - 10/17/13 at 10:06am
post #4938 of 8043
As a matter of fact, it is theoretically and mathematically possible for a game to compensate for a devices ghosting, because a game can control the separation at all varying Z-depth coordinates. NVIDIA can actually eliminate most ghosting by asking the viewer a bunch of questions at different Z-depths for each game that starts, but for obvious budget reasons, this would be a pretty big development project.

Even though the ghosting is a limitation of the video device, using the proper test patterns it can theoretically be compensated for on a PC.
post #4939 of 8043
I think there is another issue and that is the relationship to the visibility of cross talk and contrast changes. To me, extreme contrast transitions are were ghosting becomes visible and annoying if one focuses on them. If one watches the whole picture, often one is not even aware of them. But in a game, and one focuses on just a small area of the screen, say Mario, it can get pretty annoying.

BTW. That was not a shot, cheap or otherwise. As we tend to proffer explanations and answers, they tend to get refined, corrected, tossed as erroneous, whatever. We miss you insights regardless if on the money, close, or completely misguided.
post #4940 of 8043
At a certain Z-depth it doesn't matter how much contrast there is if every object on the screen were within the same Z-depth threshold (the threshold being the highest amount of contrast to the highest amount of depth before you see ghosting). Though this rule only applies to perfectly rendered game worlds more so than movies. I think in movies this gets thrown out the window mostly because we are dealing with chaotic shapes that are not patterned off perfect linear shapes on a flat Z-depth plane, but in games everything is pretty linear on the Z-depth, but in the real world it is chaotic. I am not a big gamer btw, but I fiddle now and then...

The contrast is just making the eye be able to see the split easier.
post #4941 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The Epson is good for watching 3D movies on relatively new lamps, once the lamp wears in the ghosting will appear. Also, doing any 3D gaming on a NON-DLP is not realistic IMO, because you have to focus on such small details with your eyes that even a 1mm misaligned ghosting will strain them on tiny objects.

I can't speak for all Epson lamps, but ghosting on my Epson 6010 was never "bad" (bad being relative of course, since any ghosting can be distracting). Lamp aging had a relatively small impact on ghosting in movies. The first lamp lasted about 1700 hours before it started to go. My JVC lamps didn't make it to 1,000, and one died at about 500-600. Ghosting performance degraded much faster than overall lamp performance. At its worst, my Epson's ghosting never reached the levels of the JVC's. The RS45 was so bad from the beginning with dark ghosting that I couldn't stand to watch 3D on it at all. There wasn't a film where it wasn't terrible, even when the lamp was new. The RS40 was better when the lamp was new, but that was short lived. At just a couple of hundred hours, it was bad and getting worse every day. After being burned by JVC claims that it improved 3D performance with the RS45, I'm extremely reluctant to consider another JVC, though I know zombie has said they've solved much of the problem. I also disliked the JVC gamma plummet, which I've heard little talk about even for the new models.

I'm sure you have more experience with Epson's than I do, but IMO the Epson's shouldn't be lumped in with the JVC's in terms of ghosting performance as the lamp ages. I have no idea about gaming, since I don't game on my projector, ever.

Again, ghosting is relative. DLP's can deliver ghost free images, but the contrast isn't the best. I've seen perfect ghosting performance on the new Samsung OLED flat panel, accompanied by jaw-dropping contrast and smooth, blur-free motion. After seeing that, I won't be truly happy with 3D until OLED technology matures, offers projection-size screens and is available at a price I can afford. That Samsung OLED had far and away the best 3D I've ever seen. Meanwhile, I can live with the Epson 5030 (when zombie gets around to sending it to me biggrin.gif).
post #4942 of 8043
I don't have that much experience with the Epson 5010/5020/5030, only a couple hundred hours of viewing, and even less in 3D. We saw some ghosting that I would call moderate on a lamp that had 2000 hours on it (though that is a lot of hours). It wasn't as bad as the JVC I guess, but I didn't do an A/B to find out, but it was bad enough.

Edit:
I agree the Epsons shouldn't be lumped in with the older JVC's, but sounds like last year and newer JVC's are somewhat competitive with ghosting from Zombie's report (but not as clean as the Epson). I agree in movies the Epson's ghosting is not really an issue most of the time, but in games it is still unplayable IMO. That said, 3D in games is more of a novelty to me, but I still like it every once in an orange moon.
Edited by coderguy - 10/17/13 at 10:48am
post #4943 of 8043
I've tried several 3D PS3 games on my 5010 and there was very little ghosting, maybe even less than on BDs.(The same games on my RS55 were horrible for ghosting) The Sony HW50 reportedly ghosts badly on 3D games, much worse than its BD performance. Perhaps that is what you were thinking of.
Edited by 5mark - 10/17/13 at 1:22pm
post #4944 of 8043
This thread is really starting to sell me on High Power screens. What's the deal with the High Power manual pulldowns on Amazon; is it the exact same material? That is, can I just buy one of those, cut the material out, and stretch it on my own frame? There are 120" and even 8' x 8' for only $520. They say 2.8 gain but I believe other posters in this thread said that's a mistake and they're really all the newer 2.4. Still, seems quite affordable. What is the price for fabric alone direct from Dalite? Their site has price lists for the screens but not for screen material.
post #4945 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

This thread is really starting to sell me on High Power screens. What's the deal with the High Power manual pulldowns on Amazon; is it the exact same material? That is, can I just buy one of those, cut the material out, and stretch it on my own frame? There are 120" and even 8' x 8' for only $520. They say 2.8 gain but I believe other posters in this thread said that's a mistake and they're really all the newer 2.4. Still, seems quite affordable. What is the price for fabric alone direct from Dalite? Their site has price lists for the screens but not for screen material.
The highpower material is 16dollars a squarefoot cheaper to buy manual pulldown and cut it up
post #4946 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

This thread is really starting to sell me on High Power screens. What's the deal with the High Power manual pulldowns on Amazon; is it the exact same material? That is, can I just buy one of those, cut the material out, and stretch it on my own frame? There are 120" and even 8' x 8' for only $520. They say 2.8 gain but I believe other posters in this thread said that's a mistake and they're really all the newer 2.4. Still, seems quite affordable. What is the price for fabric alone direct from Dalite? Their site has price lists for the screens but not for screen material.

I do not recommend the new 2.4 material, check the thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455184/hats-off-to-da-lite#post_23038870

After three replacement 2.4 HP screens, Da-Lite allowed me to upgrade to a 133" JKP 1.1 for a reasonable fee. The JKP surface is clearly superior. If you can get an old 2.8 in good condition, that is another story.
post #4947 of 8043
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

This is definitely a big fear of mine with non DLP 3d projectors now after seeing my 40 and 45 self destruct. Not to mention anything above "zero ghosting" now after getting used to my DLP is too much. I will get interested in non DLP projectors for 3d IF they can ever truly eliminate ghosting which seems unlikely due to the tech limitations. Time will tell.

I am curious to hear more about the 7500 though (7000 replacement) and what improvements have been made.

BenQ said it should be released near end of October. I know the 7000 inside and out so I'm also curious to see what changed. I'd like to see how it compares to the 30K. We'll find out soon! cool.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post



Again, ghosting is relative. DLP's can deliver ghost free images, but the contrast isn't the best. I've seen perfect ghosting performance on the new Samsung OLED flat panel, accompanied by jaw-dropping contrast and smooth, blur-free motion. After seeing that, I won't be truly happy with 3D until OLED technology matures, offers projection-size screens and is available at a price I can afford. That Samsung OLED had far and away the best 3D I've ever seen. Meanwhile, I can live with the Epson 5030 (when zombie gets around to sending it to me biggrin.gif).

I'm getting there, I still need to put more hours on + run the 3D calibration through the glasses. Colors in 3D are over-saturated and need to be toned down a bit. Contrast does looks very good in 3D though. You have to see Pacific Rim 3D when you get everything setup.
post #4948 of 8043
Zombie, just watched PR in 3d and WOW! Loved it! cool.gif Really great depth throughout and even a few cool popout moments here and there. Awesome blind buy! The section from the 1:10 mark up until the 1:30 mark is killer all around demo material! This is 20 minutes of insanely FUN HT action! cool.gif
Edited by Toe - 10/17/13 at 7:05pm
post #4949 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5mark View Post

I've tried several 3D PS3 games on my 5010 and there was very little ghosting, maybe even less than on BDs.(The same games on my RS55 were horrible for ghosting) The Sony HW50 reportedly ghosts badly on 3D games, much worse than its BD performance. Perhaps that is what you were thinking of.

In games almost any ghosting is too much, no I haven't used a Sony, only the Epson. I tried several different games, the Epson definitely has ghosting in games. You may not be seeing it that much on a new lamp, but it's there. Compared to a JVC, sure the ghosting is miniscule, but compared to a DLP it's still there.
post #4950 of 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

BenQ said it should be released near end of October. I know the 7000 inside and out so I'm also curious to see what changed. I'd like to see how it compares to the 30K. We'll find out soon! cool.gif
I'm getting there, I still need to put more hours on + run the 3D calibration through the glasses. Colors in 3D are over-saturated and need to be toned down a bit. Contrast does looks very good in 3D though. You have to see Pacific Rim 3D when you get everything setup.

Cool. My remodel is 98% finished (sans the ButtKicker platform). I'm holding off on a few new 3D titles until I get the 5030. I have the Oz conversion and Star Trek Into Darknss in the queue, and I'll have to add Pacific Rim to the list. Very encouraging to hear the good things you have to say about the new Epson. Also, RF 3D emitters are great, compared to IR. I have Bluetooth glasses for my Samsung D7000 plasma 3D. I think the same glasses should work with the Epson, too. Can anyone verify that?
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