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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 183

post #5461 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

We are going to test his bias, when I send him my VW600 to compare to his VW1000. smile.gif



Im looking forward to that comparing ( fight off the titans, or "rumble in the jungle" biggrin.gif ) Z are it ready ? ( I go see a movie now, is it ready, when Im finish confused.gifbiggrin.gifwink.gif )

dj


( my prediction is that the 1000ES is a Little sharper, a little better contrast and intra contrast, more silent, less CA, more uniform / focussed, bigger:D EDIT: forgot a litle better 3D with less X-talk or in short: a Little better overall, BUT not the allmost double up in Price ( normally) worth smile.gif
Edited by d.j. - 12/15/13 at 2:50am
post #5462 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

We are going to test his bias, when I send him my VW600 to compare to his VW1000. smile.gif

tongue.gif Should be an interesting comparison......but maybe we should have some sort of referee there to keep him honest. biggrin.gif
post #5463 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

tongue.gif Should be an interesting comparison......but maybe we should have some sort of referee there to keep him honest. biggrin.gif

Do you think we could get somebody that would have any interest in seeing these two projectors side by side? biggrin.gif
Reply
Reply
post #5464 of 8060
I know Mark wants to see them and I'm waiting to get my invitation! smile.gif I wonder if he'd like to see these two JVCs as well? tongue.gif
post #5465 of 8060
He is not biased, but he gets a bit blinded by his screen. Meanwhile it is snowing in LI and I am working night and day on an install. Got the servers up and running on the XBR-84X900A no problem, using HDMI input 2 on the panel. That's the only one that has HDCP 2.2. That input also works great on receiving non HDMI 2.2 encrypted output from the Lumagen 2041. Input HDMI is rated 3840 x 2160 30 also but using the same HDMI cable the Sony won't accept the 3840 from the Lumagen while it will on HDMI 2. Anybody have any ideas?.
post #5466 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

1st gen e-shift wins just on the bling factor alone.... shiny gloss paint w/ metal fleck (+ cool lens door) vs. dull matte finish.

same reason I think the Planar 81xx looks nicer than the Runco's... biggrin.gif

I'm playing again with both of them now and after about 12 hours of side by side viewing I'm only seeing a marginally better black level over the X55R. But my environment is hardly ideal to make an accurate judgement call on this one. My old room was FAR better at absorbing light reflections. I've reset both projectors to "lens center" and disabled e-shift. That is kind of a pain to do on the X90 as you have to enter the service menu to change to either. Luckily I was able to find the code with a quick search. JVC has kindly placed both of those option in the normal menu system on the newer generation models. The X90 has the better lens, by a small margin. Convergence is actually better on the X55R, it's visibly perfect on every portion of the screen with the exception of extreme edges where blue is off by maybe a quarter pixel. The X90 I have isn't bad either. There is a quarter pixel of green off across most of the image. It can't be seen from more than 2-3 feet away. Past that 2-3 foot mark both look identical. Interestingly enough, even though the convergence is worse, the slightly better lens quality has far more impact in terms of sharpness from my seating distance. Thus the image does have a more clear and delineated look on the X90. I don't think that extra clarity is solely based on it's ability to delineate pixels better. Obviously there's much more to lens quality than that. So, yes, JVC isn't lying when they say they hand pick parts for these units. I was really interested to see how much better it could get over the lens on this X55R. I wasn't disappointed.

E-shift is an interesting technology. From my seating distance of 8 feet from a roughly 100" diagonal screen e-shift does make a visual difference. While pixels are hard to see from this distance the image can still have a slightly digital look to it because of pixel structure. Per Zombie's instructions, I enabled e-shift but turned MPC processing off. Zombie is correct in saying that e-shift 1 does a better job. I can actually make out the pixel grid still on the eshift2. On top of that the image looks more "sharp" with eshift1. Eshift2 looks like they induce a small amount of pixel bleed to achieve a "pixel-less" look. This is clearly seen when comparing what text looks like with eshift enabled on both. Text looks sharper on the X90 and more smeared on the X55R when both have e-shift on. I also prefer the MPC controls on the X90 as well because only the max setting (3) on the X90 produces visible ringing. Eshift2 does give you more flexibility (more e-shift modes) and individual control over each MPC processing feature but anything over 20 with each seting gives excessive ringing and other artifacts like aliasing. EShift1 just seems to give better, more refined, image quality even though the control over it is less. It seems like Eshift1 is JVC saying "this is how you should use e-shift" and with eshift2 they said "it may not be how we think it should look, but have fun playing around finding your own personal favorite settings". I trust the JVC engineers and don't mind less control if that means there's less for me mess up.

Color ootb is far better on the X90 as well. The X55 isn't horrible, but switching back to some of the default modes the X55R has to compare makes you laugh when looking at the default THX mode on the X90. Overall I do like the X90 over the X55R. Though, the X55R is only a small step behind the X90. It's going to be a tough call on which one I'm going to sell as I don't think I'm going to keep both. I think spending the money on a good calibration for the X55R can make the PQ difference that much closer.
post #5467 of 8060
Also, I agree 100% that the gloss finish with the metal fleck looks a LOT nicer. I remember thinking that when looking at my PD8150 next to the LS-1 and now the same thing about the X55R and the X90 next to each other. I've got a soft t-shirt sitting on top of the X90 so I don't scratch the sexyness. eek.gif
Edited by Seegs108 - 12/14/13 at 3:33pm
post #5468 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Do you think we could get somebody that would have any interest in seeing these two projectors side by side? biggrin.gif

No way. I will however take one for the team and offer up my services, just for you guys and the sake of science. All I ask in return is for a VW600 of my own to take home. No need to thank me, it's Just the kind of guy I am! tongue.gif
post #5469 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Do you think we could get somebody that would have any interest in seeing these two projectors side by side? biggrin.gif


Then when Zomibe's done he can send me his 1000 and your 600. I am a true critic, and I'll tell you what one I hate less..

Plus I have a very large format Unity gain screen for absolute distinguishability in image quality comparisons... smile.gif

*Please* cool.gif


Plus I can get a group of guys from my Milwaukee Thread to also weight in on their opinions... Shoot-out?
post #5470 of 8060
ALSO!!!! Anyone that prefers *SHINY* gloss black to matte is a FOOL!!!

I absolutely HATE gloss black finishes on all electronics. Impossible to keep 100% dust free and at the same time 200% impossible to not get tiny scratches on the surface if you attempt the former...

I would prefer if they wrapped projectors in black velvet or real nice black leather. smile.gif Like a High-End B&W Speaker.





*on a side note* The first thing I do to all my SHINY gloss black equipment is use a very clean soft brush tool on my Dyson, to evenly scratch the Gloss portions (Circle, left to right, up and down and diagonal motions) so I never have to worry about trying to keep the gloss areas clean and scratch free... lol.
I can clean normally and keep the dust away from my electronics, with out worry for the Glossy areas...

Did it with my PlayStation 4 and Xbox One the moment they came out of the box.
Edited by SOWK - 12/14/13 at 3:53pm
post #5471 of 8060
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post



E-shift is an interesting technology. From my seating distance of 8 feet from a roughly 100" diagonal screen e-shift does make a visual difference. While pixels are hard to see from this distance the image can still have a slightly digital look to it because of pixel structure. Per Zombie's instructions, I enabled e-shift but turned MPC processing off. Zombie is correct in saying that e-shift 1 does a better job. I can actually make out the pixel grid still on the eshift2. On top of that the image looks more "sharp" with eshift1. Eshift2 looks like they induce a small amount of pixel bleed to achieve a "pixel-less" look. This is clearly seen when comparing what text looks like with eshift enabled on both. Text looks sharper on the X90 and more smeared on the X55R when both have e-shift on. I also prefer the MPC controls on the X90 as well because only the max setting (3) on the X90 produces visible ringing. Eshift2 does give you more flexibility (more e-shift modes) and individual control over each MPC processing feature but anything over 20 with each seting gives excessive ringing and other artifacts like aliasing. EShift1 just seems to give better, more refined, image quality even though the control over it is less. It seems like Eshift1 is JVC saying "this is how you should use e-shift" and with eshift2 they said "it may not be how we think it should look, but have fun playing around finding your own personal favorite settings". I trust the JVC engineers and don't mind less control if that means there's less for me mess up.

good info, it sounds like we are basically seeing the same thing. Most would not be able to pick up on these details without an A/B. I think JVC did a great job with e-shift 1 and MPC @ 2. This is where I kept it most of the time.

on the X90, if you hit 'right / left / right / left -> enter' on the remote you can get a menu that will allow e-shift to be turned on / off without the service menu, not sure if you found this info yet.
post #5472 of 8060
Good to know. It looks like that enables demo mode. Yeah MPC at 2 seems to be the sweet spot.

I've been A/Bing by having them stacked, connected to my PC being sent the same signal from individual DVI ports, with one projector in it's "Hide" mode and the other displaying an image so when I press the "Hide" button on the remote the images switch instantaneously. It makes for great fast switching which you really need if images aren't literally side by side.
post #5473 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Good to know. It looks like that enables demo mode. Yeah MPC at 2 seems to be the sweet spot.

I've been A/Bing by having them stacked, connected to my PC being sent the same signal from individual DVI ports, with one projector in it's "Hide" mode and the other displaying an image so when I press the "Hide" button on the remote the images switch instantaneously. It makes for great fast switching which you really need if images aren't literally side by side.

I did a similar thing with my RS20 when my RS55 arrived. I double stacked them and used the "hide" function to switch between them, covering the IR eye on each one as necessary. (In fact, as I remember, I only had to cover the IR once on one of them, as once I started with one in "hide" mode, a single press of the "hide" button sending the signal toggled the projectors, so one would go into hide, the other into display picture).

I won't be doing that again with my RS57 and RS55 though, since my projector lift gave me a bit of a scare a while back by freezing up. I don't want to place two projectors on it to stress it more. So maybe I can do some sort of side-by-side thing. My screen is 125" wide so maybe I can do two similar sized 16:9 images beside each other.

Also: I don't like reading confirmation that MPC 1 was better than E-shift 2. MPC on my RS55 is for me practically it's selling feature, along with it's contrast, so it will be a bummer if I don't like the implementation on the RS57!

(And I agree that MPC setting on "2" is the sweet spot on the first E-shift models. MPC on "1" is just noticeable, on "2" it a distinct improvement but quite natural, and then on "3" it edges into a bit more artifacty on some material (e.g. exacerbates film grain more, very slightly alters color). At the same time setting "3" on the right material is amazing as it's that last "click into place" of sharpness to the image, making it feel almost "perfectly focused."
post #5474 of 8060
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Im looking forward to that comparing ( fight off the titans, or "rumble in the jungle" biggrin.gif ) Z are it ready ? ( I go see a movie now, is it ready, when Im finish confused.gifbiggrin.gifwink.gif )

dj

( my prediction is that the 1000ES is a Little sharper, a little better contrast and intra contrast, more silent, less CA, more uniform / focussed, bigger:D or in short: a Little better overall, BUT not the allmost double up in Price ( normally) worth smile.gif

I'm curious how the 3D will compare. I've been watching a bit more 3D on the 1000, I noticed the x-talk goes down quite a bit after changing the 3D brightness from high to standard. It also cuts down on some light but it still works well centered on the 142" 2.8HP.

x-talk performance is impressive for a non DLP, I was using the MvA bridge scene as a benchmark.
post #5475 of 8060
I've spent some more time with the Sharp and I'm very happy with its combination of brightness, clarity, black levels and no ghosting -- tough to beat for 3D. My Epson is very good at everything, but the Sharp is a real specialist when it comes to 3D. If 3D is your thing and you have a High Power screen then the Sharp is worth a serious look. I think I'm getting hooked on the DLP "look". I'm a little shocked at the detail and clarity DLP offers in HD. I'm not sure I can watch 3D anymore on anything but DLP. I'll have to fire up the Epson and watch the same material I've viewed with the Mits and the Sharp.
post #5476 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I've spent some more time with the Sharp and I'm very happy with its combination of brightness, clarity, black levels and no ghosting -- tough to beat for 3D. My Epson is very good at everything, but the Sharp is a real specialist when it comes to 3D. If 3D is your thing and you have a High Power screen then the Sharp is worth a serious look. I think I'm getting hooked on the DLP "look". I'm a little shocked at the detail and clarity DLP offers in HD. I'm not sure I can watch 3D anymore on anything but DLP. I'll have to fire up the Epson and watch the same material I've viewed with the Mits and the Sharp.

Hows the 2D between the Sharp and Mit?
post #5477 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

good info, it sounds like we are basically seeing the same thing. Most would not be able to pick up on these details without an A/B. I think JVC did a great job with e-shift 1 and MPC @ 2. This is where I kept it most of the time.

on the X90, if you hit 'right / left / right / left -> enter' on the remote you can get a menu that will allow e-shift e turned on / off without the service menu, not sure if you found this info yet.

I dont know if you did a comparison yet, but how PQ in 2D between the RS55 and 1000ES. I hear its night and day LOL. I'm sure with 4KBD is would be a dramatic difference
post #5478 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'm curious how the 3D will compare. I've been watching a bit more 3D on the 1000, I noticed the x-talk goes down quite a bit after changing the 3D brightness from high to standard. It also cuts down on some light but it still works well centered on the 142" 2.8HP.

x-talk performance is impressive for a non DLP, I was using the MvA bridge scene as a benchmark.




Yes I see that too + some some small "quirks" in pans disappears ( not sure, if it is a combination off the high setting and Motion flow on low - wich I allway use , I will test ) and some color banding too (easy to see in SA), so the - standard - setting is the fashion, if you can do without the extra light output.

BTW. Z I have tried to meassure the light output trough the glasses in 3D mode and at the screen ( both my screens ) , and I really dont think it can ( or I can anyway )be meassured that way ( the numbers get so low and it do not correspond to what I see ) - In 3D I never measurred over 2-4 fl and on my high gain screen, wich in my setup gives me arround 1.9-2.0 gain in 16/9 mode 82" dia and 2.35 zoom mode and in 2D I can get 89 fl on screen !!! out off the projector ( visual in 3D high setting it looks like arround 12 - 14 fl and in standard mode it looks like 7 - 9 fl ) .

All in all is 3D on the quite impressive and satisfying (significantly better than eg. the 95ES) and if it needs to be better, you have to either resort to DLP (from what I hear) or passive 3D (with 4K resolution / full HD on both eyes a la Sony 84 "X9005)




dj
post #5479 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'm curious how the 3D will compare. I've been watching a bit more 3D on the 1000, I noticed the x-talk goes down quite a bit after changing the 3D brightness from high to standard. It also cuts down on some light but it still works well centered on the 142" 2.8HP.

x-talk performance is impressive for a non DLP, I was using the MvA bridge scene as a benchmark.




BTW Z10K

The monster glasses is quite sensitive to the angel and distance to screen - especially by head movements up and Down.
( if I move from 1 row = 1: 1 distance / 1/3 from the bottom center of the screen height - to 2. row= 1:3 distance and right center of the screen height the X- talk in high mode even disepear )
dj
post #5480 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I've spent some more time with the Sharp and I'm very happy with its combination of brightness, clarity, black levels and no ghosting -- tough to beat for 3D. My Epson is very good at everything, but the Sharp is a real specialist when it comes to 3D. If 3D is your thing and you have a High Power screen then the Sharp is worth a serious look. I think I'm getting hooked on the DLP "look". I'm a little shocked at the detail and clarity DLP offers in HD. I'm not sure I can watch 3D anymore on anything but DLP. I'll have to fire up the Epson and watch the same material I've viewed with the Mits and the Sharp.

Also interested on 2D Sharp and Mits vs Epson.
post #5481 of 8060
Have the chance to get an RS46 or a 5030 at about the same price. So torn! Really wish I'd jumped on the B-stock 4810s, but my finances changed for the better a little too late for that deal.
post #5482 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

*on a side note* The first thing I do to all my SHINY gloss black equipment is use a very clean soft brush tool on my Dyson, to evenly scratch the Gloss portions (Circle, left to right, up and down and diagonal motions) so I never have to worry about trying to keep the gloss areas clean and scratch free... lol.
I can clean normally and keep the dust away from my electronics, with out worry for the Glossy areas...

Did it with my PlayStation 4 and Xbox One the moment they came out of the box.
Use a Swiffer 360 duster and/or a quality microfiber cloth and you'll keep your glossy stuff scratch-free. Even under bright lights there aren't any scratches on my glossy stuff. I certainly wouldn't advocate "pre-scratching" expensive gadgets just to avoid carefully cleaning them. confused.gif

Even better, get one of these.

I also have that "soft" Dyson brush and it'll trash glossy plastic finishes. eek.gif
post #5483 of 8060
What I'm getting at, is there should be no gloss black finishes. its much easier to just vacuum and not worry about "scratching the surface"

(Although the scratches I am talking about would only be visible under direct light.)

Especially gloss devices that you have to touch... like a Sony PSP. Gloss black should be outlawed in cases like this. lol.

To each his own, but I would prefer none of my electronics be gloss finish.

Keep that to a piano.



The only area that I would never touch with a vacuum brush is the Lens. Lens pen and only the finest of the fine glass lens cloth.
post #5484 of 8060
Decided to put up my Epson 6030 for a good deal on the classifieds, as I'm trying to sell as much stuff as possible to get money for the VW500. Thought I could resist the allure of the Sony, but you guys are making that hard biggrin.gif

The Epson is great, and I found to be a step up from the Sony 50es I had. Much better native sharpness on the Epson, better motion, and better 3D. Black levels seemed to be a draw between the two. I liked the RC at first on the Sony, but even at minimum it just exaggerated graniness far to much on some movies, and with RC off, the Sony is much too soft. (they really need a better lens!)
post #5485 of 8060
It took me 30 mins to come to same conclusion during a demo showing! Sony needs more native sharpness and none of the RC sillyness. then I will buy!

Edit: is the VPL-HW55ES any sharper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Decided to put up my Epson 6030 for a good deal on the classifieds, as I'm trying to sell as much stuff as possible to get money for the VW500. Thought I could resist the allure of the Sony, but you guys are making that hard biggrin.gif

The Epson is great, and I found to be a step up from the Sony 50es I had. Much better native sharpness on the Epson, better motion, and better 3D. Black levels seemed to be a draw between the two. I liked the RC at first on the Sony, but even at minimum it just exaggerated graniness far to much on some movies, and with RC off, the Sony is much too soft. (they really need a better lens!)

Edited by gnolivos - 12/16/13 at 1:50pm
post #5486 of 8060
It's interesting reading the comments about the Sony's lack of lens sharpness. I remember Art at Projector reviews always had a "sharpness" comparison for each review, and he tended to rate the Sonys
at among the sharper tier.
post #5487 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

It took me 30 mins to come to same conclusion during a demo showing! Sony needs more native sharpness and none of the RC sillyness. then I will buy!

Edit: is the VPL-HW55ES any sharper?

It uses the same lens as the hw50/30.
post #5488 of 8060

and the winner is Sony! JVC needs a 4K

post #5489 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

and the winner is Sony! JVC needs a 4K

What did Sony win?
post #5490 of 8060
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Decided to put up my Epson 6030 for a good deal on the classifieds, as I'm trying to sell as much stuff as possible to get money for the VW500. Thought I could resist the allure of the Sony, but you guys are making that hard biggrin.gif

The Epson is great, and I found to be a step up from the Sony 50es I had. Much better native sharpness on the Epson, better motion, and better 3D. Black levels seemed to be a draw between the two. I liked the RC at first on the Sony, but even at minimum it just exaggerated graniness far to much on some movies, and with RC off, the Sony is much too soft. (they really need a better lens!)

The Epsons are great with all those qualities. The 3D is excellent for non-DLP. I sold my Epson 6010 to my brother for a decent price for him. Plenty of life left on the original lamp and he still has the new one when that's needed. It's still under warranty too. It is a great projector, but I couldn't pass up the sale of B-stock 1000ES projectors from AVS. Fantastic projector around 600ES prices (they're all gone AFAIK). And the best part is that Sony sent new ones! Thank you AVS and Sony. Now please take my money for the upgrade so I can take it to an 1100ES.

I just need to sell my Prismasonic A-lens. I need to find some time, take photos, and list it!
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