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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 197

post #5881 of 8011
Thanks, Joe.

Your experience with the Epson RF glasses mirrors my experience with the older Epson IR glasses that I used with my 5010. The difference in light reflections was very obvious, not subtle at all, so I am wondering at this point if both of my glasses are defective, like from a defective batch that was made. I assume that shutter glasses do not require a break in period, right? I say that because I suspect that the reflections I am seeing are caused by the shutters themselves. I ordered 2 pairs of the Samsung glasses just as an experiment to see if they fare any better - I do not consider them a permanent solution. If they are better, then I will most likely contact Epson support to have these glasses replaced.

Thanks again for your help!
post #5882 of 8011
It'll be interested to hear if the Samsung glasses are better with reflections. I saw a different problem with the glasses for my JVC RS40 (or maybe it was the Xpand 103 third party ones - can't recall which). Doing the "sweep test" on those, I saw an optical distortion - a granularity to the image that changed depending on which area of the lenses you were watching through. I seldom noticed it with normal material, but I knew it meant I wasn't seeing the best image quality the projector was capable of when watching 3D. The newer shutter glasses seem to have solved that problem. But Samsung glasses still have that cloudy inconsistency that has nothing to do with shutters. I can turn my head just a tiny bit while watching a still 3D image, and see ghosting appear in a spot where there was none before.
post #5883 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

The sony judder is caused by an advanced setting called film mode. Make sure it's OFF and not on auto 1 or auto 2. This will FIX the jerkiness/judder. It's sad that so many people don't know this (including reviewers) as it really messes up the motion on the Sony. I can't fathom why sony would leave it on as a default as I've had to say this so many times, you would think Sony would get the hint and turn it off by default.

Agreed. It first turned me off the sony when I saw one in the store, though I wanted it over the epson due to better lag numbers. Without film mode on the Sony handles motion very well.
post #5884 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

True cinema is great. Combination is really good too and smoother, but there is a loss of contrast and brightness; it is a mix of dark frame insertion and very non-aggressive interpolation. Personally, I love the brighter image so I leave in true cinema mostly. Impulse is good too. there is no interpolation, but there is dark frame insertion that increases motion resolution. It's like combination but without the interpolation added. Smooth low and smooth high are way too aggressive IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Agreed. It first turned me off the sony when I saw one in the store, though I wanted it over the epson due to better lag numbers. Without film mode on the Sony handles motion very well.

So Film Mode has nothing to do with the Motion Flow settings? I.E. - If I am planning on using True Cinema I should still have Film Mode off, correct? What is the "intended" purpose of Film Mode if it's effect is less than desirable?

Just a little confused as I see the words "True Cinema" and "Film Mode" and assume they should be related but from what I am reading their results are drastically different.

Thanks!
post #5885 of 8011
Don't use film mode if

1) you are sending any progressive content 720p 1080p

2) you are doing 1080i but the source is not a 24 fps movie

Per above, I always have it disabled.

Another way to think about it... It's only useful if you have a 24 fps source that is output as 1080i.

At least that's how I view it.

Fwiw, Sony has great motion. Zero complaints across all content (tv, movies, games)
post #5886 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Don't use film mode if

1) you are sending any progressive content 720p 1080p

2) you are doing 1080i but the source is not a 24 fps movie

Per above, I always have it disabled.

Another way to think about it... It's only useful if you have a 24 fps source that is output as 1080i.

At least that's how I view it.

Fwiw, Sony has great motion. Zero complaints across all content (tv, movies, games)

That probably explains why I always saw judder during playback on my Sony VPL-HW30ES....I had Film Mode set to Auto 1 this entire time redface.gif

Good to know. New setting for the 600ES: Off biggrin.gif
post #5887 of 8011
I'm sorry to hear you used the HW30 with this setting enabled!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Don't use film mode if

1) you are sending any progressive content 720p 1080p

2) you are doing 1080i but the source is not a 24 fps movie

Per above, I always have it disabled.

Another way to think about it... It's only useful if you have a 24 fps source that is output as 1080i.

At least that's how I view it.

Fwiw, Sony has great motion. Zero complaints across all content (tv, movies, games)

That probably explains why I always saw judder during playback on my Sony VPL-HW30ES....I had Film Mode set to Auto 1 this entire time redface.gif

Good to know. New setting for the 600ES: Off biggrin.gif
post #5888 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

The lens on the Epson is much better then the Sony and contrast is a virtual tie. I was not a fan of the 3D on the 6030. Far too much background ghosting, and actually prefered the 3D on the Sony. Both are very good and the Sony is nice and sharp with RC.....but not everyone can live with it and the Sony is really lacking in the optical department. I would save the money and get the Epson, as I've owned both and found the Epson slightly better. The Epson is not without problems either. Loud Iris, loud in high brightness mode, too much lag for gaming (changing processing from fine to fast makes the picture look like ****), If you do gaming I would recommend the Sony. The average person won't be bothered by the ghosting on the Epson, but I'm a self confessed ghost hunter and can't help it.

Bolded above is really a shame. Wonder why they can't avoid that issue. None of the other projectors that utilize a fast mode for gaming have similar issues do they? What could Epson possibly be turning off that makes the image blur like that? Any chance they could fix this in the future with a firmware update? frown.gif
post #5889 of 8011
People always say the Epson isn't for gamers. In my experience I'd argue that the 5030 is fine for casual gamers, e.g., if you're just futzing around with Mass Effect 3 or whatever then the Epson is acceptable.

If you're a serious gamer looking to score headshots in some multiplayer first person shooter, then ya there are better projector options...
post #5890 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post

People always say the Epson isn't for gamers. In my experience I'd argue that the 5030 is fine for casual gamers, e.g., if you're just futzing around with Mass Effect 3 or whatever then the Epson is acceptable.

If you're a serious gamer looking to score headshots in some multiplayer first person shooter, then ya there are better projector options...

I play COD multiplayer and my KDR has only slightly increased since going from a DLP to the Epson 6030. This isn't because the Epson is better, but it also isn't really any worse in my opinion. I don't notice the lag when playing in Fast mode, and the "blur" is so minimal that I hardly notice it when looking for it and completely forget about it after 30 seconds. I've even gone on to watch movies with it in Fast mode without noticing, and I have perfect vision. I think people make a much bigger deal out of it than it really is.
post #5891 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickoakdl View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post

People always say the Epson isn't for gamers. In my experience I'd argue that the 5030 is fine for casual gamers, e.g., if you're just futzing around with Mass Effect 3 or whatever then the Epson is acceptable.

If you're a serious gamer looking to score headshots in some multiplayer first person shooter, then ya there are better projector options...

I play COD multiplayer and my KDR has only slightly increased since going from a DLP to the Epson 6030. This isn't because the Epson is better, but it also isn't really any worse in my opinion. I don't notice the lag when playing in Fast mode, and the "blur" is so minimal that I hardly notice it when looking for it and completely forget about it after 30 seconds. I've even gone on to watch movies with it in Fast mode without noticing, and I have perfect vision. I think people make a much bigger deal out of it than it really is.

Which DLP did you come from?
post #5892 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Which DLP did you come from?

Mitsubishi WD73838
post #5893 of 8011
For 3D lovers only. I don't usually make suggestions as to what people might or should purchase; however, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if you want to get into 3D you take the red pill and read this post.

Here's an inexpensive and relatively simple set up for great 3D.

1) Check out the Mits. HC7900. You can find them with emitter and 2 pairs of glasses for under $1,000 or the projector for $799 (32% of its original list price) and a compatible emitter for $30.00. Buy the Sony PS3 3D glasses for $15/each because they're so cheap and they work great with the Mits.

2) Find a deal on a 92" or 96" cheap Da-lite HP pull down screen.

3) Mount the screen as close a possible to the ceiling and mount the projector on a small table (card table or wherever keeping the projector as high as possible off the floor to max out every lumen), adjust the vertical lens shift on the projector and turn out the lights.

You are now ready for some great 3D. In fact, I'll bet the 3D you'll be seeing will beat just about everything else out there. Why? Well, the Mits has a great CFI system that works in 3D and so does its iris. And the big thing -- no ghosting! None! This is clear, crisp and respectively bright 3D with great motion (the Mts does not have the horsepower for big screens and really needs the HP screen for 3D). To top it all off you can now watch your favourite 2D movies converted to 3D -- and yes, its pretty damn good! This on the fly 2D to 3D conversion, IMO, is far superior to everything else I've seen by a long shot.

I've just put my money were my mouth is and purchased the HC7900 for my screening room. It will be sharing responsibilities with the Epson 6020 (2D only from here on in). My HC8000 is now in my main HT along with the Epson 6010 and Sharp 30000. The HC8000 is doing the heavy lifting right now as I watch all my favourite 2D movies over again in 3D. The converted 2D to 3D, IMO, looks much better than 2D -- the depth is all behind the screen and looks very natural. It's not perfect; however, to put it into perspective the Mits handles 2D to 3D conversion much, much, much better than either of my Epson's handle ghosting.

My HC7900 will be paired with my 80" HP screen. the HC8000 is paired with my 96" HP screen and the Sharp 30000 is paired with my 120" HP screen. Yes, I love 3D! biggrin.gif Blame it on my OCD. -- baby! Sail.
Edited by Deja Vu - 1/18/14 at 9:55am
post #5894 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickoakdl View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Which DLP did you come from?

Mitsubishi WD73838

Thanks. Any info on lag for that? I'm wondering bc you said the epson didn't change your kd at all, so if you're used to playing with a certain level of lag that makes sense. I know it was a big deal for me which is why I ended up with the Sony, though I loved the torch mode of the epson for watching with lights one. The epson looks incredible paired with a firehawk screen. But I'm happy with my 50 smile.gif
post #5895 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Thanks. Any info on lag for that? I'm wondering bc you said the epson didn't change your kd at all, so if you're used to playing with a certain level of lag that makes sense. I know it was a big deal for me which is why I ended up with the Sony, though I loved the torch mode of the epson for watching with lights one. The epson looks incredible paired with a firehawk screen. But I'm happy with my 50 smile.gif

I'm pretty sure the Mitsubishi had very little lag, but I have no exact measurements. With the Epson my KDR suffered the first few times playing, but I think it was because I was overwhelmed with the 133" screen. After I got use to it, it has improved. Did you play with the Epson in "fast" mode?
post #5896 of 8011
I didn't play on it. I bought my projector before the 5030 came out and there was no fast processing on the 5020. No regrets going with the sony though.
post #5897 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View PostThanks. Any info on lag for that? I'm wondering bc you said the epson didn't change your kd at all, so if you're used to playing with a certain level of lag that makes sense. I know it was a big deal for me which is why I ended up with the Sony, though I loved the torch mode of the epson for watching with lights one. The epson looks incredible paired with a firehawk screen. But I'm happy with my 50 smile.gif

Torch mode!

post #5898 of 8011
Here's a review of one of the new JVC projectors. 3D still seems to be a problem in 2014 -- what else is new? . Just click on the JVC image when it appears on the right to read the review.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2013%2F09%2F05%2Flg-pf80g-dlp-full-hd-full-led-1299-euros%2F
post #5899 of 8011
Thread Starter 
imo there's needs to be more to a 3D review than just showing the L/R patterns, they pretty much will look the same on any non-DLP projector and can be taken out of context which is why I don't bother with them anymore.

JVC improved the 3D last year by a good amount last year and most people who aren't hyper-critical are going to be fine with it. The contrast in 3D is excellent in a way that the Sharp 30K and HC8000 cannot compete with, so it has it's own advantages. Look at the night scenes in MvA for a good example. They also added CMD this year in 3D which was a much needed addition. It works just as well as it does on the Sony and Epsons.

If I didn't have the 1000, the 57 + 30K would have been my 2D / 3D combo this year. JVC did a great thing this year by finally implementing a dynamic iris. In 2D, the DLP's i've tested recently (HC 8000, Sharp 30k, Planar 8130) have a black floor that look like mud in comparison to the RS57 in low APL scenes.
post #5900 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

imo there's needs to be more to a 3D review than just showing the L/R patterns, they pretty much will look the same on any non-DLP projector and can be taken out of context which is why I don't bother with them anymore.

JVC improved the 3D last year by a good amount last year and most people who aren't hyper-critical are going to be fine with it. The contrast in 3D is excellent in a way that the Sharp 30K and HC8000 cannot compete with, so it has it's own advantages. Look at the night scenes in MvA for a good example. They also added CMD this year in 3D which was a much needed addition. It works just as well as it does on the Sony and Epsons.

If I didn't have the 1000, the 57 + 30K would have been my 2D / 3D combo this year. JVC did a great thing this year by finally implementing a dynamic iris. In 2D, the DLP's i've tested recently (HC 8000, Sharp 30k, Planar 8130) have a black floor that look like mud in comparison to the RS57 in low APL scenes.


I'm a big Sci-Fi fan and I am really craving a new DI JVC for that reason alone since most my viewing is still 2d. My DLP is not going anywhere for 3d though knowing the ghosting/flicker is the same as last years models which is still way too much for me (saw an X75 a few months back). I am sure most casual users will be fine/happy with the JVCs for 3d though as you mention.

Check out Ninja 2 Shadow of a Tear for one gorgeous transfer that has some great shots at times that will show off the JVCs excellent contrast. I was blown away by the transfer the other night and some of the PQ guys in that thread were raving about it as well. TONS of hard hitting LFE as well (Ninja 1 is an LFE fest also) focused in the 15-40hz range.
post #5901 of 8011
Have the new JVCs improved on the problem of the gamma drop in bright scenes that requires a re-calibration every few hundred hours to avoid those scenes "flattening out"? That was even more troubling for me than the bad 3D of the RS40/45, because I've been foolishly unwilling to learn how to calibrate.
post #5902 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Have the new JVCs improved on the problem of the gamma drop in bright scenes that requires a re-calibration every few hundred hours to avoid those scenes "flattening out"? That was even more troubling for me than the bad 3D of the RS40/45, because I've been foolishly unwilling to learn how to calibrate.


I don't know, but I am glad you mentioned this since I guess I should pull out my meter and check what mine has done since it's been about a year from when I calibrated.
post #5903 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I'm a big Sci-Fi fan and I am really craving a new DI JVC for that reason alone since most my viewing is still 2d. My DLP is not going anywhere for 3d though knowing the ghosting/flicker is the same as last years models which is still way too much for me (saw an X75 a few months back). I am sure most casual users will be fine/happy with the JVCs for 3d though as you mention.

Check out Ninja 2 Shadow of a Tear for one gorgeous transfer that has some great shots at times that will show off the JVCs excellent contrast. I was blown away by the transfer the other night and some of the PQ guys in that thread were raving about it as well. TONS of hard hitting LFE as well (Ninja 1 is an LFE fest also) focused in the 15-40hz range.


I have watched Prometheus, all the Alien movies, Blade Runner and some Star Trek and have yet to be disappointed. I have not noticed the DI pumping yet, just a beautiful image. Much better DI then what I had on my BenQ W7000.

I will be sure to check out that movie you recommend.
post #5904 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardoski View Post

I have watched Prometheus, all the Alien movies, Blade Runner and some Star Trek and have yet to be disappointed. I have not noticed the DI pumping yet, just a beautiful image. Much better DI then what I had on my BenQ W7000.

I will be sure to check out that movie you recommend.

Awesome! Thanks for the reports. It's very impressive how good a job JVC did on this DI from all the reports. I was surprised how good it looked when I saw it at Cedia. cool.gif
post #5905 of 8011
I forgot to mention Oblivion is jaw dropping
post #5906 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardoski View Post

I have watched Prometheus, all the Alien movies, Blade Runner and some Star Trek and have yet to be disappointed. I have not noticed the DI pumping yet, just a beautiful image. Much better DI then what I had on my BenQ W7000.

I will be sure to check out that movie you recommend.

Alien and BladeRunner almost in of themselves motivated my going for a killer home theater. They were probably the two movies I thought of over and over "Can't wait to see those on the big screen!"
Showin' my age there, no doubt.
post #5907 of 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

imo there's needs to be more to a 3D review than just showing the L/R patterns, they pretty much will look the same on any non-DLP projector and can be taken out of context which is why I don't bother with them anymore.

There is more to the review of the 3D than just the L/R patterns. They also watched some 3D and found the usual ghosting problems. Most reviews gloss over the 3D ghosting issue by saying the "light" ghosting won't bother most people. Tell that to the members on this board who are constantly asking questions about ghosting and what they can do to fix it. Once people are educated about ghosting their tolerance for it tends to drop. My big complaint about the Epson projectors is how the ghosting (especially in the background) mars a great 3D image and there's nothing you can do about it! What guests think is a great 3D image doesn't seem so great once you pause the image and explain and discuss what ghosting is and point it out. They never see 3D the same again.

The reviewer had this subjective comment about the JVC's 3D. BTW he thought the 2D was the best he's ever seen.

"SAMMY'S ADVENTURES: This animated film is filled with effects spurts but also ghosting. No miracle waiting on this point."

I would interpret his comments to mean that the 2D was so good that the 3D was a big disappoint in comparison.
post #5908 of 8011
Thread Starter 
if there was obvious x-talk, then they should have demonstrated it. Subjective opinion on this topic has meant little in the past, it's easy enough to photograph / document. Sammy's is one of the toughest 3D movies and gives other projectors fits, not just the JVC's....

you're fighting an uphill battle. 3D releases are starting to slow and it's not as popular a topic of discussion as it was a few years ago. I've been turning to imports to keep a fresh look at 3D. this one is very cool:

http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Monsters-David-Attenborough-Blu-ray/dp/B00F0N7Q0E
post #5909 of 8011
I watched almost no 3D on my RS55 but intend to watch more on my RS57.

Is there a list somewhere on the web, or on AVSforum, of all the 3D movies on Blu-Ray?
post #5910 of 8011
Thread Starter 
this site has some good info:

http://www.3dmovielist.com/3ddvds.html
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