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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 27

post #781 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

@SARA
Anyone can test Post #783 and see why the camera method won't work, you can deny the logic in that post (that is fine), but you cannot deny test results :P
Sure I can get the two photos from the camera and display them on the monitors, but I am still left with the offset to correct what we visually see from the monitor compared to the actual room we compared the projectors in. If you get the camera done exactly 100% correct, all you did was equal my result with an extra step, but oh I promise there will be a larger error in the camera method, because I am correcting the offset from the beginning as the first step and never even using a camera.
I am not the best writer at explaining this technical jargon (it's the programmer in me, I write code so much that my writing style sometimes gets too PSEUDO like), but after all the useless confusing stuff I originally posted, I think the last few posts are as clear as the whitewater rapids I wish I was swimming in (drowning in) right now.

Ok, I'm trying to understand your post. So please don't get frustrated. I think we're saying the same thing: you're telling me to take a shot of the same image being sent to both projectors (separately, duh)... that's also what I've been saying, with the caveat: adjust exposure of the camera such that the whitest white being projected for any given projector yields the same RAW value for the shot of the other projector. THEN, black values in those two camera shots I just took should be comparable (again, if DR of camera > DR of projected image). Now what you're adding to this is that: despite this, the two images won't show the same difference on a monitor as the difference you see in person when viewing the projectors, yes?

If this is what you're saying, I'm inclined to agree, simply because:

  1. It's hard to find a camera with enough DR for modern projectors
  2. It's hard to find a monitor with enough output DR to appreciate the difference in black levels GIVEN you were able to record these differences in black levels above the noise floor of the sensor to begin with.

Which is why I used numbers when I quantitated effect of HP screen/black velvet curtains on black floor. But that's another topic altogether.

Furthermore, I've been trying to understand how exactly you did the calculations to figure out black offset. Do you mind answering the question I posted earlier:

"One more question: you measured the whites & the blacks with your meter for each projector. You could then calculate a contrast ratio. Did you then use this contrast ratio to set the black vs white for the two images? If so, yeah I'd say your method is valid & accurate."

Thanks.

P.S. Zombie: agreed smile.gif
post #782 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

This forum would be boring without useless and confusing posts. The trick is for the reader to seperate the wheat fom the chaff. And besides its for the most the same guys posting and attempting to one up, not always but, its basically the same group playing poker and drinking milk.We need evry one to stay in the game. There is always the next hand, pass the chips. smile.gif

Maybe for some people it's attempts to one up another; but that's a broad generalization.

On my end: I'm trying to understand coderguy's method on the off-chance I might learn something. I like learning new things, & find the sharing of knowledge very important... which is why these forums exist, no?
post #783 of 8035
Anyways, it's a draw partner, we've gotta go to a commercial break.
Edited by coderguy - 11/9/12 at 2:44am
post #784 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

Stuck on an aircraft enroute to Key West. Who is playing tonight on Thursday Night Football?

Indy vs Jaxsonville. Indy leading at the half.
17 to 3.
post #785 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

Maybe for some people it's attempts to one up another; but that's a broad generalization.
On my end: I'm trying to understand coderguy's method on the off-chance I might learn something. I like learning new things, & find the sharing of knowledge very important... which is why these forums exist, no?

i said not always. And in theory that's what this forum was founded tp do. It has changed I think for a variety of reasons. But we cam indeed learn alot from each other. But sometimes this quest for the understanding of minutia makes us lose sight of the forest because of the many many trees. I wonder how many of us here spend more time posting than watching. The intent of a HT is to have something to use and enjoy.


Screen shots can show certain things well, convergence etc. Mostly invalid shots that one should not make a buying choice.
post #786 of 8035
Thread Starter 
well that was a buzzkill... thanks guys. cool.gif

time to take a break and watch some movies on these projectors.
post #787 of 8035
Holy thread crap batman eek.gif, can we just stop the madness and allow those with actual contributions and experience with the units being discussed to get back on track.

Zombie, did you get a chance to check out that pattern, I sent it to you earlier today via e-mail (no rush at all, just curious wink.gif).

Thank you,
Jason
post #788 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

well that was a buzzkill... thanks guys. cool.gif
time to take a break and watch some movies on these projectors.

Page 25 was excellent, some great reports in there Zombie - thank you.

Page 26 and 27 - hmmnnn, thought I was on talk photography forum. I thought coderguys original pics showing black levels were very good and after reading a few posts of debate on the photo techniques I sub-constiously starting grinding my teeth, pulling my eyelashes out and doing various other self-harming things. I'm lucky I didn't have a rope close to hand or I could have ended up in real bother eek.gif
post #789 of 8035
I'd like to ask a question that relates to all the projectors in this shootout, and is one to do with black levels and screen quality (oh no - not black levels again!!)

I own a JVC X30, so would assume my black levels are pretty good, and since I cant remember how good my last projectors levels were, its difficult to be objective, so I will assume they are rolleyes.gif

My question is this.

If the room the projector is going in, be it a HW50,JVC RS55, W7000 etc is a normal living room, with coloured wallpaper on the walls, perhaps a magnolia ceiling etc (although viewed always at night when dark) will the ambient light falling off the walls/ceiling and back onto the screen make the blacks of any projector irrelevant?

What I mean by that is, if projector A is the very best at blacks, and projector B is better at 3d, but rated lower than projector A at blacks, will projector A still have the best black regardless of room environment, or will all projectors level out at when conditions in the room are not perfect, until both projectors have equivalent blacks. Also, wil lthe brighness of the projector also be relevant, increasing light falloff and making the blacks worse than a projector with less lumens?

Finally, is there something else to be looking at, when the above conditions are true, (in normal living room conditions, when only viewed in the dark ie not bothered about daytime viewing) to get the best picture

Thanks

John
post #790 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwsheff View Post

I'd like to ask a question that relates to all the projectors in this shootout, and is one to do with black levels and screen quality (oh no - not black levels again!!)
I own a JVC X30, so would assume my black levels are pretty good, and since I cant remember how good my last projectors levels were, its difficult to be objective, so I will assume they are rolleyes.gif
My question is this.
If the room the projector is going in, be it a HW50,JVC RS55, W7000 etc is a normal living room, with coloured wallpaper on the walls, perhaps a magnolia ceiling etc (although viewed always at night when dark) will the ambient light falling off the walls/ceiling and back onto the screen make the blacks of any projector irrelevant?
What I mean by that is, if projector A is the very best at blacks, and projector B is better at 3d, but rated lower than projector A at blacks, will projector A still have the best black regardless of room environment, or will all projectors level out at when conditions in the room are not perfect, until both projectors have equivalent blacks. Also, wil lthe brighness of the projector also be relevant, increasing light falloff and making the blacks worse than a projector with less lumens?
Finally, is there something else to be looking at, when the above conditions are true, (in normal living room conditions, when only viewed in the dark ie not bothered about daytime viewing) to get the best picture
Thanks
John

In short...the JVC will still have better blacks than the Panasonic...been there and done that in an untreated room. Better yet, when I improved the room the JVC looked even better. cool.gif
post #791 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post

Page 25 was excellent, some great reports in there Zombie - thank you.
Page 26 and 27 - hmmnnn, thought I was on talk photography forum. I thought coderguys original pics showing black levels were very good and after reading a few posts of debate on the photo techniques I sub-constiously starting grinding my teeth, pulling my eyelashes out and doing various other self-harming things. I'm lucky I didn't have a rope close to hand or I could have ended up in real bother eek.gif

I hear you! Better to PM others about off topic stuff. If debates go on here about other things this thread will lose its appeal.
post #792 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post

Page 25 was excellent, some great reports in there Zombie - thank you.
Page 26 and 27 - hmmnnn, thought I was on talk photography forum. I thought coderguys original pics showing black levels were very good and after reading a few posts of debate on the photo techniques I sub-constiously starting grinding my teeth, pulling my eyelashes out and doing various other self-harming things. I'm lucky I didn't have a rope close to hand or I could have ended up in real bother eek.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I hear you! Better to PM others about off topic stuff. If debates go on here about other things this thread will lose its appeal.

Agreed! I checked out mentally the last two pages. rolleyes.gif If this happens again, someone shoot me a PM (or just shoot me! tongue.gif) when we are back on topic or there is some solid info related to these projectors. It would be nice (IMO) if there was a separate discussion thread so we could just have one thread with all the findings so we dont have to wade through all sorts of other BS.

One question I have on the Benq W7000 is if there is some sort of iris adjustment in the service menu to cut down the brightness even further? Apparently (from posts I have read here which I assume are accurate?) the 6000 had an option like this and wondering if the 7000 has it as well?
Edited by Toe - 11/9/12 at 5:48am
post #793 of 8035
+ 1 Toe. After reading the last two pages I was like ummm...ok. biggrin.gif
post #794 of 8035
+1 that was awful, if coderguy and sarangiman wanna argue over what to do, how to do it and whether it works or not, from now on I hope they just pm each other. What was this thread about again?
post #795 of 8035
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Holy thread crap batman eek.gif, can we just stop the madness and allow those with actual contributions and experience with the units being discussed to get back on track.

Zombie, did you get a chance to check out that pattern, I sent it to you earlier today via e-mail (no rush at all, just curious wink.gif).

Thank you,

Jason


Jason, hi it was getting too late last night, but I do have the application & specific pattern you're looking at, I'll take a look at it this weekend on both the HW50 and the 5020.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post


Page 25 was excellent, some great reports in there Zombie - thank you.

Page 26 and 27 - hmmnnn, thought I was on talk photography forum. I thought coderguys original pics showing black levels were very good and after reading a few posts of debate on the photo techniques I sub-constiously starting grinding my teeth, pulling my eyelashes out and doing various other self-harming things. I'm lucky I didn't have a rope close to hand or I could have ended up in real bother eek.gif

no problem. the concept of the discussion is interesting, but should be on a separate thread. imo, it's not practical in reality unless everyone has a reference level studio monitor on their desk.
post #796 of 8035
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post


Agreed! I checked out mentally the last two pages. rolleyes.gif If this happens again, someone shoot me a PM (or just shoot me! tongue.gif) when we are back on topic or there is some solid info related to these projectors. It would be nice (IMO) if there was a separate discussion thread so we could just have one thread with all the findings so we dont have to wade through all sorts of other BS.

One question I have on the Benq W7000 is if there is some sort of iris adjustment in the service menu to cut down the brightness even further? Apparently (from posts I have read here which I assume are accurate?) the 6000 had an option like this and wondering if the 7000 has it as well?

i've been meaning to try this out on the W7000 since the 1500 lumens in user 1 is pretty bright on the HP and could easily be tamed down by closing the iris. I missed the posts on how to get into the service menu. It must be different than the W6000 since the service codes didn't work on the W7000.

i'll look through the W7000 thread to see if I can find the code to enter the SM.
post #797 of 8035
Hey Zombie, did you ever post your 5020 fw version if so I didnt see it?
post #798 of 8035
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post

Hey Zombie, did you ever post your 5020 fw version if so I didnt see it?

Hi, not yet, definitely this weekend. I'll check out those patterns jason sent over.
post #799 of 8035
Wow I just read the shootout on pc..what a bunch of crap! do not buy into this.



'The AE8000 has a number of interesting features such as 3D Depth Control and 3D Motion Remaster that make it easier to watch 3D comfortably, and Frame Creation is available in 3D on the AE8000. The 5020UBe does not have thesse features and 3D Frame Interpolation is not available.'

My 5020 does have depth control..also have a screen size setting that makes it more comfortable to watch in 3d, trust me the 300 inch setting makes me very cross eyed. I'm shocked at this.

and I thought this was awesome!

from a commentor!

At present, the Epson 5020UB sells for $400 less than the AE-8000 almost everywhere. Not a trivial difference (15%) to me.

In the shootout 'Warranty' section, you essentially gloss over the significant differences in coverage. At least mention or link to the warranty details in the individual Projector Central reviews.

Panasonic covers the AE-8000 for two years or 2000 hours, whichever comes first. In order to get 2 years of coverage, you can't use it more than ~2.75 hours per day. You also have to pay to send it to Panasonic for repair and wait for it to be returned.

The Epson 5020UB/5020UBe warranty is for 2 years regardless of hours. Epson will over-night a replacement projector for two years so you are never without a projector, nor are you charged for shipping the defective unit back.

Looked at another way, if you used the AE-8000 24x7 you'd lose warranty coverage after 83 days. You can use the Epson 24x7 and have warranty coverage (17,520 hours) for two full years. Major diiference for those who use their projector for tv, internet, gaming, etc. in addition to just movies.


I loved this too, the ae8000 is $400 more than the 5020..and hes comparing the 2, yet he writes this about the ae8000 and says the 6020 is much more expensive, around $400 to $500 more than ae8000. so is he saying the ae8000 costs signifcantly more than the 5020?


"The AE8000 has an anamorphic stretch mode for compatibility with anamorphic lenses. It also has automated Lens Memory, which can zoom the picture from 16:9 to 2.4 widescreen based on the aspect ratio of the content. This gives you the option of a constant image height (CIH) setup without using a costly anamorphic lens. The 5020UBe lacks both of these options. Anamorphic stretch mode is available on the Epson 6020UB and 6020UBe, but those models cost significantly more. "
Edited by dagameballa - 11/9/12 at 11:36am
post #800 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post

+1 that was awful, if coderguy and sarangiman wanna argue over what to do, how to do it and whether it works or not, from now on I hope they just pm each other. What was this thread about again?

Football. smile.gif

This thread is an epic. Perhaps the best thread ever on AV Science forum thanks namely to Zombie10K. Clearly the league MVP. It does tend to wander a bit but that does happen. Once again that does tend to self correct. It is a boys club though. A good one though that tends to self regulate without any need for moderator assistance. I do agree that a new thread should be started for the subject of screen shots.
Edited by mark haflich - 11/9/12 at 11:34am
post #801 of 8035
I concur, Zombie has done an amazing job on both shootouts, he is clearly the league leader in touchdowns, rushing and passing yards with fewest fumbles! cool.gif The Alpha and Omega, and we all appreciate it greatly!
post #802 of 8035
I received my Epson 5020 (actually 8100, EU version) via UPS and sadly they will have to pick it up again. Good thing we got two week free returns on any mail order items in Germany.

Now some of my impression with the unit:
- The cinema mode is very nice out of the box
- Lens shift and the other dials feel very cheap but do work accuratly enough
- Convergence was nice except for blue, it was about half a pixel down on the left screen side and half a pixel to the right on the right side
- Auto-Iris is quite audible, but since I got a seperate room for the equipment its ok for me
- I heard a slight electric beep coming out of the beamer, I am quite sensitive to those and possibly most would not notice
Now what made me return it:
- The space between pixels, screen-door effect, was so much pronounced I could not keep watching
- Sharpness was missing, it was not super bad but it simply was not sharp enough. I stopped tweaking after I knew I would not keep it

Since I decided quickly not to keep it, I did not try the 3D and keept the glasses sealed.
My screen is 16:9, 2 meter wide and I sit 2.7 meters away, so a factor of about 1.35x

Will most likely get the X35, after seeing it next week in direct comparison with all other new projectors, even the Mitsubishi.
I had the chance to see then Sony HW50 a few times, but it sadly does not fit into my room with the limited zoom. I loved it otherwise.
post #803 of 8035
Xood,

Yeah sharpness is what I also found lacking with the Epsons (at least the 5010 and 5020). And the screen door effect is definitely more pronounced with them as well. Overall, an ok projector but certainly not the level of the JVCs or the Sonys.
post #804 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

i've been meaning to try this out on the W7000 since the 1500 lumens in user 1 is pretty bright on the HP and could easily be tamed down by closing the iris. I missed the posts on how to get into the service menu. It must be different than the W6000 since the service codes didn't work on the W7000.
i'll look through the W7000 thread to see if I can find the code to enter the SM.

Sounds good, thanks!
post #805 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post

I concur, Zombie has done an amazing job on both shootouts, he is clearly the league leader in touchdowns, rushing and passing yards with fewest fumbles! cool.gif The Alpha and Omega, and we all appreciate it greatly!

Yeah that guys ok with me...
post #806 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

Yeah sharpness is what I also found lacking with the Epsons (at least the 5010 and 5020). And the screen door effect is definitely more pronounced with them as well. Overall, an ok projector but certainly not the level of the JVCs or the Sonys.

Well I have seen a 5010 and a 5020 with excellent over-all sharpness, especially for LCD, and I have viewed some of THE sharpest projectors available.

I don't think this is a category where the 5010/5020 Epson can be knocked, now convergence can obviously be hit & miss (as it has been for years across many makes/models).

Yes the Epson's do have SDE due to pixel fill and obviously the distance at which this is visible will vary by individual.

Jason
Edited by DaGamePimp - 11/9/12 at 1:06pm
post #807 of 8035
Thanks for all the great info on this thread. I'm getting ready to update (finally) a very old Sanyo and I'd like some advice. I'm looking at the JVC-RS46 and the Epson 5020. The Sanyo is loud, unreliable, and has no black depth at all so I'm sure either of these will be a HUGE improvement. I'm not much of a 3D person and the vast majority of what I watch is TV content (Sports, Crime dramas) and about 4 hours/week of movies. I have the projector in the basement where the lighting is completely controlled. I know the JVC is preferred with 2D movies, but what about with regular TV content and sports? My other concern is the bulb issue - has that been reliably fixed? The Epson seems like the "best overall athlete" while the JVC is the better "skill position" player. Any thoughts on things I should consider would be greatly appreciated
post #808 of 8035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xood View Post

I received my Epson 5020 (actually 8100, EU version) via UPS and sadly they will have to pick it up again. Good thing we got two week free returns on any mail order items in Germany.
Now some of my impression with the unit:
- The cinema mode is very nice out of the box
- Lens shift and the other dials feel very cheap but do work accuratly enough
- Convergence was nice except for blue, it was about half a pixel down on the left screen side and half a pixel to the right on the right side
- Auto-Iris is quite audible, but since I got a seperate room for the equipment its ok for me
- I heard a slight electric beep coming out of the beamer, I am quite sensitive to those and possibly most would not notice
Now what made me return it:
- The space between pixels, screen-door effect, was so much pronounced I could not keep watching
- Sharpness was missing, it was not super bad but it simply was not sharp enough. I stopped tweaking after I knew I would not keep it
Since I decided quickly not to keep it, I did not try the 3D and keept the glasses sealed.
My screen is 16:9, 2 meter wide and I sit 2.7 meters away, so a factor of about 1.35x
Will most likely get the X35, after seeing it next week in direct comparison with all other new projectors, even the Mitsubishi.
I had the chance to see then Sony HW50 a few times, but it sadly does not fit into my room with the limited zoom. I loved it otherwise.

After reading this thread, and in my personal experience.. I have come to realize that every projector even the same model can be very different from the next one off the production line.. Even with my iris on high speed, mine makes no noise whatsoever, it is also very sharp like my cousin said, I wouldnt say 'RAZOR SHARP' but pretty damn sharp. I also have a 123" vutec britewhite screen that I sit about 9 to 10 feet from and I see no pixelization or sde. Although my cousin noticed a beeping noise coming from the projector if you listen close that sounds like a very faint alarm clock.
Edited by dagameballa - 11/9/12 at 1:56pm
post #809 of 8035
JVC and motion...

There is talk about this every year. Personally, having never viewed a JVC, I'm still not sure what people mean by it.

Is it something that a video of some content displayed by the JVC would capture? Or is it too subtle and would get lost in the resolution/codec/etc.?
post #810 of 8035
Will we see an improvement on the 46 or is it just a rebadged 45 ? A dealer told me to skip the 4810 since from 14-15 ft away I wouldn't notice the difference with eShift2.
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