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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 30

post #871 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

...The bass was theree and shook my wife out of bed two stories up...

That's usually not a good thing when that happens. eek.giftongue.gif
post #872 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Hi Joe. Several points.
I think you mean you got rid of the HP to get a screen with a high polarization extinction ratio, i.e, one that preserves polarization rather tha destroying it or creating it.
Seond the Tteranex i not HDCP compliant. So one would have to go the stripper route..
Third Zombie10K would have to buy the Red or get a loaner for someone who purchased it No store is going to buy one and lend it to him for a review because they would not be able to sell them. Also I think by the time one buys a lens for the Red, the price will be closer to $15K but I don't know.

Thanks for the warning, Mark. I should have noticed that there was no HDCP mention in the tech specs for the Teranex. I shouldn't be spending that kind of money on such a device anyway, but it was tempting when I thought it might work. I'm not a leap before I look kind of guy, though, so I would have researched it thoroughly before buying. I still want to see the Red laser projector. I'd make a trip for that, armed with lots of Blu-ray discs.
post #873 of 8074
Thread Starter 
JC - the 3D ISO with the 30 and 80 patterns works perfect, thanks!!

On this HW50, out of the box, cinema 1 3D mode, grayscale was off a bit through the glasses with red and blue low.

HW50-3DCAL-4-.jpg

A quick change at 30 & 80

HW50-3DCAL-5-.jpg

Overall, colors look good through the glasses. It's nice when the colors are close in 3D.

HW50-3DCAL-0-.jpg

HW50-3DCAL-1-.jpg

HW50-3DCAL-2-.jpg

HW50-3DCAL-3-.jpg
post #874 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

A quick change at 30 & 80
HW50-3DCAL-5-.jpg
Overall, colors look good through the glasses. It's nice when the colors are close in 3D.
HW50-3DCAL-1-.jpg
Nice! Though it seems gamma is a bit too high. It's easy to fix if you're using an HTPC.
post #875 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The 5010 pixel structure threw me for curve last year when I first saw it. I don't mind it from seating distance, but I wish the white / gray color uniformity was better on the 5020. This seems to be inherent to the LCD technology as we've seen the pink / blue tint variation dating back to the original LCD's.
Comparing the HW50 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 color uniformity, the JVC take the win without a doubt. It's practically flawless on my particular copy. I hope to see the same performance from the upcoming models.

How is the uniformity of these projectors on full black fields? In my experience, this is where LCD's have an advantage since they don't suffer the bright-corner issues of LCOS/SXRD. Can you post some full-screen black screenshots (including your JVC)? Thanks.
post #876 of 8074
post #877 of 8074
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Nice! Though it seems gamma is a bit too high. It's easy to fix if you're using an HTPC.

it's the camera, the gamma is tracking very close to 2.2 on the HW50. I watched 5 straight hours of 2D and 3D movie clips on the Sony after a calibration, it looked great overall.

I liked the HW30, but the HW50 is no doubt a nice improvement. I see there is mention of the VW95 follow up next year. If they can add the same improvements (RC, brighter 2D and 3D, less ghosting than the 95) then it should be a popular model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

How is the uniformity of these projectors on full black fields? In my experience, this is where LCD's have an advantage since they don't suffer the bright-corner issues of LCOS/SXRD. Can you post some full-screen black screenshots (including your JVC)? Thanks.

I did some experimenting on a black field the other day with the 5020 and HW50. Neither had noticeable bright corners. I noticed 2 differences. The black floor on the HW50 appeared.. more black. meaning, once my eyes got settled, I could see some slight color on the 5020. Left was a slight tinge of pink and the right a bit blue, similar to the white and gray fields. It's not something that's going to be apparent unless studying it closely. The HW50 also appeared somewhat darker on the all black frame. The iris was closed down more on the Sony.

I'll try to get some overexposed shots of the black screens when I have some more time.
post #878 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

JC - the 3D ISO with the 30 and 80 patterns works perfect, thanks!!
On this HW50, out of the box, cinema 1 3D mode, grayscale was off a bit through the glasses with red and blue low.
HW50-3DCAL-4-.jpg
A quick change at 30 & 80
HW50-3DCAL-5-.jpg

I notice that the 'Y' value has come down nearly 50% between the before and after calibration. This is quite a reduction in light output, so (as usual) it's part of the AV compromises we have to make.
post #879 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I notice that the 'Y' value has come down nearly 50% between the before and after calibration. This is quite a reduction in light output, so (as usual) it's part of the AV compromises we have to make.

I calculated that the Y came down a little bit over 26%. That would cause about a 5% perceived to ones eyes reduction in brightness.
post #880 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I calculated that the Y came down a little bit over 26%. That would cause about a 5% perceived to ones eyes reduction in brightness.

I just knew as soon as I posted that, someone would do the full calculation. biggrin.gif I just took the 4.5 and near 3 figures and figured it was (near) 50% brighter before, but it's nearer 3.5 after. As you say, the calibrated version is 26% dimmer or you could say that the uncalibrated version is just under 36% brighter. Probably only noticeable in a direct comparison, even then only on a paused image probably. I don't 'do' 3D due to headaches, so not an issue for me, though the Y figures do seem low (not sure what % was being measured in the example as it mentions 30% and 80%.
post #881 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Thanks for the warning, Mark. I should have noticed that there was no HDCP mention in the tech specs for the Teranex. I shouldn't be spending that kind of money on such a device anyway, but it was tempting when I thought it might work. I'm not a leap before I look kind of guy, though, so I would have researched it thoroughly before buying. I still want to see the Red laser projector. I'd make a trip for that, armed with lots of Blu-ray discs.

Not being HDCP compliant shouldn't be a problem. All the CRT guys are familiar with the solutions and they're not expensive solutions. If the Teranex is as good as they claim and I can actually find one I'll probably buy it.

Off topic -- I increased the screen size to 160 for my 120 screen in the Oppo's menu and things are really popping! biggrin.gif No eye strain experienced as yet.
post #882 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Not being HDCP compliant shouldn't be a problem. All the CRT guys are familiar with the solutions and they're not expensive solutions. If the Teranex is as good as they claim and I can actually find one I'll probably buy it.
Off topic -- I increased the screen size to 160 for my 120 screen in the Oppo's menu and things are really popping! biggrin.gif No eye strain experienced as yet.

It's not available yet. You can get on the list to be notified when it's ready at a place like B&H Photo. I'm on it. smile.gif
post #883 of 8074
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I just knew as soon as I posted that, someone would do the full calculation. biggrin.gif I just took the 4.5 and near 3 figures and figured it was (near) 50% brighter before, but it's nearer 3.5 after. As you say, the calibrated version is 26% dimmer or you could say that the uncalibrated version is just under 36% brighter. Probably only noticeable in a direct comparison, even then only on a paused image probably. I don't 'do' 3D due to headaches, so not an issue for me, though the Y figures do seem low (not sure what % was being measured in the example as it mentions 30% and 80%.

Kelvin - ok, I shouldn't be doing this in the middle of the night.. cool.gif I accidentally posted the 100% before and the 80% after.

Here is the 30 and 80 values before the adjustments. I'll go back and get the after #'s on my laptop, but the Y drop was very marginal and not easily detectable in brightness drop between corrected and the pre-values.

out of curiosity, what 3D projectors have you seen? Do you get a headache in general from the cinema and 3D projectors as well? I'm always curious when I hear this what the root cause is.

80%

HW50-3DCAL-7-.jpg

30%

HW50-3DCAL-6-.jpg
post #884 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Not being HDCP compliant shouldn't be a problem. All the CRT guys are familiar with the solutions and they're not expensive solutions. If the Teranex is as good as they claim and I can actually find one I'll probably buy it.
Off topic -- I increased the screen size to 160 for my 120 screen in the Oppo's menu and things are really popping! biggrin.gif No eye strain experienced as yet.

So the 3d is better increasing the screen size in the Oppo? I have a 93 so I might try this when I start watching more 3d again. Thanks for the tip!
post #885 of 8074
Toe, what projector do you have?.
post #886 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

Toe, what projector do you have?.

Hey Jsil smile.gif

I am using the RS45 right now. Might move to the 4810, but not likely at this point. Leaning instead toward keeping the 45 and adding a BenQ 7000 for 3d at some point when I can find one for a steal.
post #887 of 8074
The Teranex market used to be high end broadcast facilities and production studios. With the acquisition by Blackmagic Design a few months ago, it's been possible for them to get into markets that previously couldn't afford their expensive gear. They also have a bunch of low cost mini-converters now. Seems to me that it should be possible for them to produce a stand alone 2D to 3D converter that costs just a few hundred bucks for the home theater market. Obviously, it wouldn't need to do international standards conversion. Unlike their other gear, however, it would need to be HDCP compliant. They may not want to get into the home market, but it might be wise to wait a bit to see if they move in that direction. It would be perfect for those of us who are looking for a high quality 2D to 3D converter. And I think I read yesterday that AVS has become a dealer (??). If so, perhaps it's an indication they're headed into the consumer market. Or maybe I'm way off base. Let me put Mark on the spot. Mark? biggrin.gif
post #888 of 8074
Toe, how do you set up a two projectors.
post #889 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

Toe, how do you set up a two projectors.

The way I would work it is put the 7000 on the rear shelf in my HT right below my 45 (which is mounted in the store room shooting through a cutout in the back wall) and run one HDMI out of my Oppo 93 to the 7000 and the 2nd HDMI out to my pre/pro and then to the 45.
post #890 of 8074
The whole problem with measurements is that most (not you:) who you? you you smile.gif ) don't realize how they translate into what one sees.Now some measuresment are meaningful. Input lag. And because its really so simple anso simple, game experts can tell one what's acceptable to what level of player.

Many people just buy on the numbers. Its a sad sad fact. Its a hundred more Lumens, its a de of 2 not 3, its an off of 200,000 to 0ne, not 20,000 or whatever the on offs are. Believe the ads. Ansi Cr its only 25 less, 100 instead of 125, can't make much difference. Its all a numbers game and the numbers don't lie.

Let's be honest. Let's assume real numbers. What will 80,000 vs 40,000 out of the lens on off gain one? How would you describe it?

How about going from an ANSI of 100 to 130. How would you describe that.

Let's suppose ANSI Lumens go from 1100 to 1300. What would your eyes see on your screen? hoe viciously will a manufacturer be attacked for lowing the ANSI Lumens this year to gain a little in the on off war?

How about fan noise of 19 db vs 22db. What would you hear at your seating distance? What's the noise sound like?. Is the noise component all the same except for loudness.

The internet can not teach or provide the experience necessary to know what the numbers mean or whether what the numbers say can answer the question.

Let's take up close screen shots. Often big differences but what do these close ups translate to at your viewing position. Any difference to what you see?

4K . Useless at my seating distance, really? Have you compared or are you just relying on some reviewer.

Color bars before and after. Clearly, corected is better but how does that translate.

And please tell me what settings you are using because I want to use the right ones and I haven't a clue. And the manufacturers are the guilty ones here offering next to nothing on how to adjust things correctly. Thank you Sony for so much help in how to adjust RC and to use your CMS.

This is such a fun sport but at least one doesn't need to go to a comedy club. Just keep reading these forums. No. Not you! Him! OK .
post #891 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

The Teranex market used to be high end broadcast facilities and production studios. With the acquisition by Blackmagic Design a few months ago, it's been possible for them to get into markets that previously couldn't afford their expensive gear. They also have a bunch of low cost mini-converters now. Seems to me that it should be possible for them to produce a stand alone 2D to 3D converter that costs just a few hundred bucks for the home theater market. Obviously, it wouldn't need to do international standards conversion. Unlike their other gear, however, it would need to be HDCP compliant. They may not want to get into the home market, but it might be wise to wait a bit to see if they move in that direction. It would be perfect for those of us who are looking for a high quality 2D to 3D converter. And I think I read yesterday that AVS has become a dealer (??). If so, perhaps it's an indication they're headed into the consumer market. Or maybe I'm way off base. Let me put Mark on the spot. Mark? biggrin.gif

Strippers do exist, but they are illegal and are harder to get. But one needs to be cautioned that the Teranex is not plug and play.

I am sure it could have been made HDCP compliant but its not model to pay licensing fees. I do not think it tries to develop product but I really don't know. Buy a company cheap, copy, produce it cheaply in a foreign country and sell it low enough to make a ROI after acquisition costs. Just my thoughts.

And AV Science is a Black Magic dealer so give Mike G a call if you want a Teranex.
post #892 of 8074
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Let's take up close screen shots. Often big differences but what do these close ups translate to at your viewing position. Any difference to what you see?

on my size screen at this close seating distance, I can absolutely see the differences between the RC, Darbee, e-shift, etc. Someone would have to be blind to miss it.

With small screens, not quite as much. wink.gif

btw, I've given up trying to paint those tiles, the 1/4 drop is actually a distraction and opted for something flat. I bought 5 of these as a sample:

http://www.radialeng.com/sales/BlackStratoTiles-primacoustic-press-release.html

they are the 2x2 flat black tiles, they fit perfect and have a great finish on them. I already have a flat black paint and started on the white bars.

blacktile.jpg
post #893 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Getting back on track discussing this class of projectors, my wife and I went to a curved screen digital presentation of the new Bond flick, Skyfall.
The theater was totally black, foot lights were designed to not reflect on the screen. People were stumbling to try and get seated while the trailers were running. I needed to use my LED pocket flashlight to see steps, the floor yada yada.
Anyway, in an effort to not be overly long winded or even ponderous in my pontifications and propensity for procrastination and sloth, I will continue.
The picture was relatively dim. Dim? Yes . I woud guess about 14 ft lamberts. No one complained but then again most of them are not used to watching moves at 20 or more foot lamberts. But we aren't them, we watch at what? Most don't even know. But we get use to bright. And if bright is good, even brighter is better. We want our screens to have plasma like brightness. Our spouses demand it. If only they would had continued to make HP in 2.8 instead of 2.4 I want that extra brightness. Whoops I better put a smile.gif here or someone might take me seriously. Nah. That will never happen.
Anyhow, I do not know whether the digital projector was 2K or 4K. There was very very little textural detail in the image. Could have used a Darbee big time or some nice RC or even both.
The picture had few sun shiny scenes. The scenes in London were dreary. Overcast. So what do you see. Lens wide open causing the sky to be a burnt out white with no detail. No detail in the darks either. And the black screens were gray. Oh. And I never ever felt as if I were there. Always was aware of the screen hanging up front. If you want to duplicate this fine theater experience, and its was a good theater, you do not need any of this fancy stuff. Just a black pit and a low gain screen and a cheap low on off projector. Would give you the Director's intent. Non saturated colors too.
The sound however was awsome. Much better than I have.

I love the preponderance of pontification... especially from the one's with more than just book smarts proliferated as "experience". biggrin.gif

Over the past week the conversations have been... well let's just say I kept thinking of that scene in Planes, Trains... "Here's a tip... have a point... it makes it so much more interesting for the listener". wink.gif


post #894 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Kelvin - ok, I shouldn't be doing this in the middle of the night.. cool.gif I accidentally posted the 100% before and the 80% after.
Here is the 30 and 80 values before the adjustments. I'll go back and get the after #'s on my laptop, but the Y drop was very marginal and not easily detectable in brightness drop between corrected and the pre-values.
out of curiosity, what 3D projectors have you seen? Do you get a headache in general from the cinema and 3D projectors as well? I'm always curious when I hear this what the root cause is.

Thanks for going to the trouble Zombie, it's even less important than I first thought due my poor rounding of the figures. If that was 100 before and 80 after then as you say things are going to be so close as to not matter, sorry for draging things off topic. redface.gif

I've seen the older JVCs in 3D and some 3D TVs, but always get the same effect after a short while. I'm the same with DLP projectors too. Just something that my eyes/brain don't like, not sure if wearing glasses has anything to do with it either. It's not a big deal as for me, many of the 3D films aren't ones I'm that bothered about (and those that I've seen in 2D gave me the impression that they needed the 3D effect to make them worth watching rolleyes.gif).
post #895 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

on my size screen at this close seating distance, I can absolutely see the differences between the RC, Darbee, e-shift, etc. Someone would have to be blind to miss it.
With small screens, not quite as much. wink.gif
btw, I've given up trying to paint those tiles, the 1/4 drop is actually a distraction and opted for something flat. I bought 5 of these as a sample:
http://www.radialeng.com/sales/BlackStratoTiles-primacoustic-press-release.html
they are the 2x2 flat black tiles, they fit perfect and have a great finish on them. I already have a flat black paint and started on the white bars.

Did you check out the one's I sent you a few months back? Wonder how these compare? Just a tip J... (as I've done this B4 at the old house)... prime those grids first otherwise the flat black paint (even if you used oil like I did), will scratch right off with your fingernail! wink.gif
post #896 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xood View Post

I received my Epson 5020 (actually 8100, EU version) via UPS and sadly they will have to pick it up again. Good thing we got two week free returns on any mail order items in Germany.
Now some of my impression with the unit:
- The cinema mode is very nice out of the box
- Lens shift and the other dials feel very cheap but do work accuratly enough
- Convergence was nice except for blue, it was about half a pixel down on the left screen side and half a pixel to the right on the right side
- Auto-Iris is quite audible, but since I got a seperate room for the equipment its ok for me
- I heard a slight electric beep coming out of the beamer, I am quite sensitive to those and possibly most would not notice
Now what made me return it:
- The space between pixels, screen-door effect, was so much pronounced I could not keep watching
- Sharpness was missing, it was not super bad but it simply was not sharp enough. I stopped tweaking after I knew I would not keep it
Since I decided quickly not to keep it, I did not try the 3D and keept the glasses sealed.
My screen is 16:9, 2 meter wide and I sit 2.7 meters away, so a factor of about 1.35x
Will most likely get the X35, after seeing it next week in direct comparison with all other new projectors, even the Mitsubishi.
I had the chance to see then Sony HW50 a few times, but it sadly does not fit into my room with the limited zoom. I loved it otherwise.


Can you give precision on your viewing conditions : screen size , seeting distance and wether you saw SDE with hd content or sd contents
post #897 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by merc10 View Post

Interesting review.
They rate the Panna better then the sony in 2d viewing.Best blacks they have seen from an LCD.

Odd as everything I've read says the Panasonic lags behind Epson who lags behind JVC. Even ProjectorCentral who is a big fan of Panasonic didn't state this finding.
post #898 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

I love the preponderance of pontification... especially from the one's with more than just book smarts proliferated as "experience". biggrin.gif
Over the past week the conversations have been... well let's just say I kept thinking of that scene in Planes, Trains... "Here's a tip... have a point... it makes it so much more interesting for the listener". wink.gif

I agree completely. Now if you own a JVC Rs-45, setup a 5010, owned many previous Epsons, and owned other variants of some of these projectors (sometimes 2) and A/B'd most, are you allowed to comment over an individual or reviewer that doesn't own both and hasn't A/B'd, but is making discrete comments?
(now obviously when doing so, you have to be careful and inform people of your environment)

You could almost say it is more valid (with disclosure) if you A/B'd a model close enough, then if you just looked at one after another like most reviewers do (even if they had the newer model), because in reality these projectors look very close to another from an image standpoint unless you create a very carefully crafted baseline in your mind of how to remember them (and that is not easy). To be clear, that isn't as good as doing an A/B on the exact model, and if you go back in the models too far, that will invalidate no matter what, but it is still somewhat interesting to hear about progression. It is difficult to have them all at the same time. Many people see projectors in a showroom and that counts for something, but not like having it in a room or owning it and A/B. Direct comparison (or from a baseline comparison) is really the only way when the differences are subtle. I mean I have to pause when a reviewer gets a new JVC and can't A/B it to last year's, because geeze that has to be hard to see such a small difference from memory (when using a new model over an old). Oh it's definitely possible to see a difference, but it won't equate to what the difference really was to a completely accurate assessment. Some reviewers clumsily juggle their way through this process since they do not have both on hand, when in the back of their mind they've watched so many projectors in the past year, they really cannot even remember the difference.

Yes, I had a slip of the tongue and was too hard on the Panny (and the guy posting about it, sorry there). It was simply because of the amount of frustration from people in the 7000 thread that I've listened to (and it came out in that one post from me a little harsh), I just want to make sure people are getting the best bang for their buck. The Panny response time and warranty service has been absolutely brutal to some (unless they are not telling the truth, but I assume they are).
Edited by coderguy - 11/11/12 at 2:44pm
post #899 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Strippers do exist, but they are illegal and are harder to get.

I've heard Nevada they can be had quite easily. And the Philippines and such countries with ease... wink.gif
post #900 of 8074
Zombie,

Did you end up having the time to check the Colorfacts tracking/phase pattern?

Thanks,
Jason
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