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Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 42

post #1231 of 4327
11/23/12 at 5:49am
Pardon my ignorance, but what is SBS?
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #1232 of 4327
11/23/12 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

While we're on the subject: 3D gaming is a no-go on the Sony. The ghosting is ridiculous. Pretty sure it was fine on the W7000. It's so bad on the Sony it barely makes sense, since movies aren't this bad. I'm wondering if it's b/c it's a 60p framepacked signal, as opposed to 24p framepacked. I'm assuming the latter plays at 48Hz, while the 60p signal plays at 120Hz. At 120Hz, I bet the SXRD chips can't possibly keep up w/ the L/R frames flashing so quickly, hence the ridiculous ghosting.
Literally, PS3 games in 3D are completely unplayable on the HW50ES b/c of ghosting. And I'm willing to bet it's b/c it's 60p frame-packed. I wish there were an option in games for 24p framepacked for 3D games. There's no reason the games should have THAT much more ghosting than 3D 24p movies, which are still quite enjoyable on the HW50.
I tried both Crysis 2 & Uncharted 3 in stereoscopic 3D. Both completely unplayable in 3D.

Nooooooooooo! eek.gif

And combined with the continued 3D emitter buzzing that Sony has not completely eliminated, the HW50's appeal as a gaming projector suddenly took a nose dive. frown.gif
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post #1233 of 4327
11/23/12 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

Pardon my ignorance, but what is SBS?
3D Format Side by Side. If you refer top my post above the main thing with JVCs DLA projectors is that so far (jury is still out on the latest models, but due to panel speed we are not expecting much) their 3D has only been usable with 24p (23.98 Hz) content meaning frame-packed full resolution 3D in BR disks due to their slower panels. PS3 gaming and 3D TV broadcasts use 50/60 Hz (Side by Side or Top and Bottom and was PS3 frame sequentical 720p?) half resolution 3D and slow JVC panels cope with this very very poorly and show huge amount of ghosting.

I'm kind of surprized Sony competes with JVC in race who sucks most for gaming as they are supposed to have faster panels.
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post #1234 of 4327
11/23/12 at 6:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

I watched 24p 3D on X55 for a couple of hours yesterday on my own theater (managed to load an pre prod unit for an evening). It very soon became clear that JVC has made a significant step (bigger than I expected) forward in terms of 24p ghosting; did not see any ghosting whatsoever (I know what to look for, have watched about 50 3D movies on my X3), I did not look for those known pathological cases, but tested some movies that showed ghosting most clearly (IMAX Space station, Transformers 3, Imax Under the Sea...) in my X3 when it was new and none of those showed any ghosting whatsoever on X55 that I could see.
However, I come from X3/RS40, where I would character 24p 3d between "acceptable" and "good" and PS3 gaming or any 50/60 Hz content was "fully, madly and deeply unwatchable" due to excess ghosting. I ordered X55 as my 3D is all 24p, not really a gamer and there are no interesting 3D broadcasts here. It is wort checking if they made progress with 50/60 Hz 3d as they have made a nice step with 3D, but I would highly recommend against blind buying a new JVC for PS3 gaming or SbS/TaB content thinking "how bad can it be" as it truly was just that dreadful with X3/RS40. And with last years models too.

Thanks for the report and that is a good sign as far as blu ray goes. Having said that, Under The Sea I found to be one of the discs that showed the LEAST amount of ghosting on both my RS40 and RS45. The worst ghosting was right in the opening credits, and after that it was pretty damn clean, so that is nothing to get excited about as far as the new models IMO since UtS has always looked good. Transformers had more ghosting, but still not a horrible title on the 45. Space Station definitely had some ghosting though when my 40 was new (one of the first discs I watched), so that one is a good sign. smile.gif

Do you still have the X55? Since you know first hand how horrible the gaming ghosting has been on the old models, I would love to get your take on the X55 with this same gaming content.

Looking forward to the Zombie shots of Grand Canyon, Sammys, Despicable Me which should be very telling on how much blu ray has improved.

On a side note, I am also a bit surprised to hear how bad the Sony is with game ghosting. Sounds like this is an area where the Lcos tech struggles in general?
Edited by Toe - 11/23/12 at 6:21am
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post #1235 of 4327
11/23/12 at 6:18am
I've been reading the reviews on the new Mitz and Epsons and Panny, and their is one thing that bothers me. I see no mentioning of these projectors crosstalk issues. Not that there is an issue but wether they have one or to what extend their crosstalk problem lies. Why is this important comparison being avoided. After all what is the use of buying a 3D projector, we might just as well buy the best 2D.
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post #1236 of 4327
11/23/12 at 6:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

3D Format Side by Side. If you refer top my post above the main thing with JVCs DLA projectors is that so far (jury is still out on the latest models, but due to panel speed we are not expecting much) their 3D has only been usable with 24p (23.98 Hz) content meaning frame-packed full resolution 3D in BR disks due to their slower panels. PS3 gaming and 3D TV broadcasts use 50/60 Hz (Side by Side or Top and Bottom and was PS3 frame sequentical 720p?) half resolution 3D and slow JVC panels cope with this very very poorly and show huge amount of ghosting.
I'm kind of surprized Sony competes with JVC in race who sucks most for gaming as they are supposed to have faster panels.
In my opinion this has nothing to do with panel speed, they're fast enough. I think it has to do with shutter timing of the glasses.

With the MV-set you could set the timing via PC.
I have to see where I get some 60p material, in Europe everything is 50p. And 60p framepacked is even more difficult to get.
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post #1237 of 4327
11/23/12 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

I meant to put in the previous post that yesterday I specially tried to pick test movies that I remembered showing ghosting most clearly when my X3 was new; namely the Imax Space Station (could verember very well ghosting on the high contrast space parts in X3) and IMAX Under the Sea, those were among the very first 3D movies I had for my X3 and while I enjoyed/watched the Under the Sea a lot it always showed ghosting quite clearly, even when X3 was right out of the box. Also, I fully closed the iris to -15 in high lamp on the X55 to do a rudimentary test on lamp dimming and watched like that for some time. Still no ghosting shown. This was totally against what I expected. I was using old IR based JVC 3D X55 googles btw so the improvement is on the projector, not glasses. After what early report promised about JVC 3D improvements last year and what was actually delivered I did not expect much from 3D and was very surprized positively on what I saw.
My setup is 110" Stewart ST130 G3 on about minimum throw so I'm getting quite ok brightness from the JVCs. If the promize of much slower lamp dimming holds I know I will be very happy camper with with my upcoming X55.

While it's more scientific to use a lux meter to match levels (as I plan to do when I get my X35 against my current HD350) I can see that you've made some effort to create a more level playing field than some new projector owners have. I'm not interested in 3D personally as the active glasses give me a major headache (as do most of the films on 3D for that matter wink.gif) but I'm not so sure that closing the iris has the same effect as an aged lamp: The heat output may be less on an older lamp which could make some difference in the way the panels react at different temperatures, but as I said, I'm no 3D expert.

Out of my own selfish interest how do you find the 2D image comparison between the X3 and X55?
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post #1238 of 4327
11/23/12 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

3D Format Side by Side. If you refer top my post above the main thing with JVCs DLA projectors is that so far (jury is still out on the latest models, but due to panel speed we are not expecting much) their 3D has only been usable with 24p (23.98 Hz) content meaning frame-packed full resolution 3D in BR disks due to their slower panels. PS3 gaming and 3D TV broadcasts use 50/60 Hz (Side by Side or Top and Bottom and was PS3 frame sequentical 720p?) half resolution 3D and slow JVC panels cope with this very very poorly and show huge amount of ghosting.
I'm kind of surprized Sony competes with JVC in race who sucks most for gaming as they are supposed to have faster panels.

That's what I was thinking. I was sure the Sony had the JVC beat as far as refresh rate/panel speed went. This isn't making my decision any easier lol. Now I'm thinking of just getting a damn JVC for the awesome 2D performance and may just get a W7000 for 3D If I feel the need.
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post #1239 of 4327
11/23/12 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

I meant to put in the previous post that yesterday I specially tried to pick test movies that I remembered showing ghosting most clearly when my X3 was new; namely the Imax Space Station (could verember very well ghosting on the high contrast space parts in X3) and IMAX Under the Sea, those were among the very first 3D movies I had for my X3 and while I enjoyed/watched the Under the Sea a lot it always showed ghosting quite clearly, even when X3 was right out of the box. Also, I fully closed the iris to -15 in high lamp on the X55 to do a rudimentary test on lamp dimming and watched like that for some time. Still no ghosting shown. This was totally against what I expected. I was using old IR based JVC 3D X55 googles btw so the improvement is on the projector, not glasses. After what early report promised about JVC 3D improvements last year and what was actually delivered I did not expect much from 3D and was very surprized positively on what I saw.
My setup is 110" Stewart ST130 G3 on about minimum throw so I'm getting quite ok brightness from the JVCs. If the promize of much slower lamp dimming holds I know I will be very happy camper with with my upcoming X55.

Closing the iris is not a proper way to test lamp dimming and its effect on ghosting since the increased ghosting is thought to come from loss of heat which closing the iris has no impact on from my understanding how this all works (someone correct me if I am wrong). The heat loss comes from lamp age and cant be recreated by clamping down the iris as far as I know.
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post #1240 of 4327
11/23/12 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks for the report and that is a good sign as far as blu ray goes. Having said that, Under The Sea I found to be one of the discs that showed the LEAST amount of ghosting on both my RS40 and RS45. The worst ghosting was right in the opening credits, and after that it was pretty damn clean, so that is nothing to get excited about as far as the new models IMO since UtS has always looked good. Transformers had more ghosting, but still not a horrible title on the 45. Space Station definitely had some ghosting though when my 40 was new (one of the first discs I watched), so that one is a good sign. smile.gif
Do you still have the X55? Since you know first hand how horrible the gaming ghosting has been on the old models, I would love to get your take on the X55 with this same gaming content.
Looking forward to the Zombie shots of Grand Canyon, Sammys, Despicable Me which should be very telling on how much blu ray has improved.
On a side note, I am also a bit surprised to hear how bad the Sony is with game ghosting. Sounds like this is an area where the Lcos tech struggles in general?
The Under the Sea was never that bad in terms of ghosting, I think I picked it up because I've watched it so many times that I remember quite well where the ghosting on X3 was. The small pointy fishes "dancing" on the bottom for example always showed it. With my X3 I almost stopped watching the Space Station due to ghosting despite having less than 200 hours on lamp and it was nowhere to be seen on the X55 with 80 hours on lamp; looked through all the high contrast material shot in the space. Same goes with Transformers 3D though I did have more hours on the lamp when I watched it on X3. I obviously was not watching full movies, but with Transformers I went to brainless end zerg in Chicago where I could clearly remember seeing a lot of ghosting with my X3. Also went through some DTS 3D Demo disks demos (the drummer stuff, Tron) and where there was clear ghosting in X3 was none with X55. Like said, I also closed the Iris all the way to -15 for maybe 20 minutes and it did not bring out any ghosting on Transformers 3 either, but like noted maybe it is not the same thing as aged lamp.

Obviously I cannot promise my tests we all inclusive, but I spent maybe 2.5 hours only just looking for ghosting and found absolutely none. It was quite late at night and someone else might have seen some during the viewing but if it was there I missed it on my environment.

Don't have X55 pre prod unit anymore, setting it up for split screen comparison with my X3 made quite a cabling spaghetti on my theater so I tore the temp setup up this morning and returned the unit. I was quite happy to be able to compare the projectors in my own setup; was ready to buy X55 after 4 hours of 2D viewing. What I saw with 3D was just an added bonus. More detailed report on 2D incoming later today to the JVC X55 thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe 
Closing the iris is not a proper way to test lamp dimming and its effect on ghosting since the increased ghosting is thought to come from loss of heat which closing the iris has no impact on from my understanding how this all works (someone correct me if I am wrong). The heat loss comes from lamp age and cant be recreated by clamping down the iris as far as I know.
If the heat is the only reason then would a ceiling mounted X3 with installation that blocks some air circulation show less ghosting? My quite boxed & ceiling mounted X3 with 1000 hours on lamp is showing quite much ghosting even though it runs quite hot. I think there may be more than just heat loss to this but then again I'm no expert in this.
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post #1241 of 4327
11/23/12 at 7:46am
So Space Station was first watched with almost 200 hours on the lamp and Transformers with over 200 hours on your X3 tn1krr? ~200 or more hours, especially in a setup that might be restricting airflow (which yours might from what you are describing) which will no doubt be harder on the machine and could cause the lamp to age even quicker is not really a fair comparison IMO, especially with what we know about the reliability of the X3 lamp. Your X3 lamp could easily at nearly 200 hours+ have already aged and been showing more ghosting vs when it was new. Not trying to discredit your findings and I appreciate the report, but there are certainly some variables worth noting. My RS45 when I first got it looked noticeably better with ghosting vs my RS40 once it hit ~300+ hours, but comparing the two with new bulbs would reveal a different story since my RS40 got considerably worse as I got up there in hours starting somewhere around 300. The Zombie shots will eliminate the variables as much as possible (we still have a few such as unit to unit variance) since we can compare the exact same scenes from last year with VERY similar low hours on the bulbs.

As far as blocking air circulation to the machine, I dont see that helping the ghosting since the actual heat coming off the lamp will be the same either way. The big difference between blocking the air to some degree and not is that the machine in general will run hotter I would think blocking it and it might reduce the "warm up" period because of this, but the ghosting as far as lamp heat or the reduction of lamp heat would be the same either way in my mind. Of course blocking the air flow in general is a bad idea since it is harder on the machine and I would certainly not suggest doing this to reduce the warm up period. I am certainly no expert either though and this is just speculation. This is also why clamping the iris down will have no impact from a heat standpoint since the lamp is working just as hard no matter if the iris is at -15 or 0.
Edited by Toe - 11/23/12 at 7:55am
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post #1242 of 4327
11/23/12 at 8:10am
Zombie,

We are setting up my Sony hw50. What settings did you use for noise filtering?
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post #1243 of 4327
11/23/12 at 8:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedO View Post

Zombie,
We are setting up my Sony hw50. What settings did you use for noise filtering?

The only settings I changed are the resolution settings to minimum or ~10 depending on the size of the screen and seating distance (factory setting = 20). I left the noise filtering alone since I didn't see much of a chance. I also turned the MPEG setting to LOW. I forget which menu this is in, but you'll find it. This helps eliminate some of the noise from the RC.

In 3D, I prefer to turn down the RC resolution setting to 30 from the factory setting of 50.
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post #1244 of 4327
11/23/12 at 8:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

The Under the Sea was never that bad in terms of ghosting, I think I picked it up because I've watched it so many times that I remember quite well where the ghosting on X3 was. The small pointy fishes "dancing" on the bottom for example always showed it. With my X3 I almost stopped watching the Space Station due to ghosting despite having less than 200 hours on lamp and it was nowhere to be seen on the X55 with 80 hours on lamp; looked through all the high contrast material shot in the space. Same goes with Transformers 3D though I did have more hours on the lamp when I watched it on X3. I obviously was not watching full movies, but with Transformers I went to brainless end zerg in Chicago where I could clearly remember seeing a lot of ghosting with my X3. Also went through some DTS 3D Demo disks demos (the drummer stuff, Tron) and where there was clear ghosting in X3 was none with X55. Like said, I also closed the Iris all the way to -15 for maybe 20 minutes and it did not bring out any ghosting on Transformers 3 either, but like noted maybe it is not the same thing as aged lamp.

Obviously I cannot promise my tests we all inclusive, but I spent maybe 2.5 hours only just looking for ghosting and found absolutely none. It was quite late at night and someone else might have seen some during the viewing but if it was there I missed it on my environment.

Don't have X55 pre prod unit anymore, setting it up for split screen comparison with my X3 made quite a cabling spaghetti on my theater so I tore the temp setup up this morning and returned the unit. I was quite happy to be able to compare the projectors in my own setup; was ready to buy X55 after 4 hours of 2D viewing. What I saw with 3D was just an added bonus. More detailed report on 2D incoming later today to the JVC X55 thread.

If the heat is the only reason then would a ceiling mounted X3 with installation that blocks some air circulation show less ghosting? My quite boxed & ceiling mounted X3 with 1000 hours on lamp is showing quite much ghosting even though it runs quite hot. I think there may be more than just heat loss to this but then again I'm no expert in this.

thanks for the great feedback so far, please feel free to post your comments in this thread since many are awaiting to hear the first impression of the X55/RS4810. We should have the final production RS4810 very soon to compare against last years RS55.

Cine4home's comments on the pre-production models got my attention since Sammy's adventure's is a tough 3D movie.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/JVC_X-Serie_2012/JVC_DILA_2012.htm

In terms of ghosting / crosstalk but the X35 has played its strengths clearly. Even with heavy content with high contrast (eg, in the palms "Sammy Abeneteuer"), the new projector showed significantly less ghosting, than its predecessor. The difference is so significant that one can speak of a big jump in quality.

If JVC can finally match the Sony/Epson with frame packed 3D bluray, it's going to make for an interesting 3D showdown this year.
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post #1245 of 4327
11/23/12 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob47v View Post

I've been reading the reviews on the new Mitz and Epsons and Panny, and their is one thing that bothers me. I see no mentioning of these projectors crosstalk issues. Not that there is an issue but wether they have one or to what extend their crosstalk problem lies. Why is this important comparison being avoided. After all what is the use of buying a 3D projector, we might just as well buy the best 2D.

Trusted Reviews and AVForum's reviews of these projectors all mention how cross-talk is handled by them, at least for 3D BD. The Epson handles cross-talk very well for both 3D BD and SBS material -- I've watched both on an Epson 6010. I suspect the Panny does as well since it uses Epson's panels. Apparently SBS material is a no-go for both the Sony and JVC projectors and this was discussed in last year's comparison conducted by Zombie. The new Mits is a DLP so cross-talk should be a non-issue for it.
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post #1246 of 4327
11/23/12 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

So Space Station was first watched with almost 200 hours on the lamp and Transformers with over 200 hours on your X3 tn1krr? ~200 or more hours, especially in a setup that might be restricting airflow (which yours might from what you are describing) which will no doubt be harder on the machine and could cause the lamp to age even quicker is not really a fair comparison IMO, especially with what we know about the reliability of the X3 lamp. Your X3 lamp could easily at nearly 200 hours+ have already aged and been showing more ghosting vs when it was new. Not trying to discredit your findings and I appreciate the report, but there are certainly some variables worth noting. My RS45 when I first got it looked noticeably better with ghosting vs my RS40 once it hit ~300+ hours, but comparing the two with new bulbs would reveal a different story since my RS40 got considerably worse as I got up there in hours starting somewhere around 300. The Zombie shots will eliminate the variables as much as possible (we still have a few such as unit to unit variance) since we can compare the exact same scenes from last year with VERY similar low hours on the bulbs.
Just to add that for first 400 hours my X3 was in perfectly ventilated environment where I actually had to warm up to projector for 1/2 hour to get the best 3D out of it. That was in our old house before we moved 15 months ago. We lived in a temp house for 6 months in the middle where the X3 was in a box. At no point I got X3 as free of crosstalk as I got from X55 yesterday; out of the box it was there (had a set of movies bough before I even had the X3, watched them in the 1st night I got the X3), but it was mostly in control with most movies and thus blown away by the wow factor of this new 3D thing. I'm kind of sorry I did not watch the IMAX Grand Canyon Adventure yesterday frown.gif It shoved a lot of ghosting in the X3 and I watched it just once, within the week since I got the X3. After what we saw last year with crosstalk canceller etc. hype I was preparing myself for a letdown when I fired up the 3D in the X55. The letdown never came, at least with the testing I managed to do.

This test Zombie is doing is a huge service the community (my hat is off for this) and I'm only trying to add my limited experiences (with somewhat documented/defined environment) before the X55 is publicly available/testable. Personally, it was huge deal for me to 1st time ever get to test/compare the device I'm maybe planning to buy with the device it might be replacing. No home-grown test is perfect but personally I'm confident enuff on what I saw. With luck I get my X55 late next week; if so it would be my pleasure to test those very hardest hardest 3D scenes as the very 1st thing I do. If others have the projector before me then I'll add my experiences as an indication on how much unit variance there is smile.gif

Added some 2D experiences in the X55 thread, setup seems to make E-Shift 2 shine but since I'm watching 110 inch screen from such a close distance

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1424180/jvc-dla-rs48-dla-x55-projector-with-3d-rf-glasses-and-e-shift-cedia-2012/420#post_22617469
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post #1247 of 4327
11/23/12 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Trusted Reviews and AVForum's reviews of these projectors all mention how cross-talk is handled by them, at least for 3D BD. The Epson handles cross-talk very well for both 3D BD and SBS material -- I've watched both on an Epson 6010. I suspect the Panny does as well since it uses Epson's panels. Apparently SBS material is a no-go for both the Sony and JVC projectors and this was discussed in last year's comparison conducted by Zombie. The new Mits is a DLP so cross-talk should be a non-issue for it.
I've read the reviews on the 5010, and the 7900 Panny but the latest projector reviews don't mention crosstalk, have this issue been fixed. I've seen the 6010 Epson and while it rendered a superb image it did inherit crosstalk. Are the new Epson's fixed from this illness?
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post #1248 of 4327
11/23/12 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob47v View Post

I've read the reviews on the 5010, and the 7900 Panny but the latest projector reviews don't mention crosstalk, have this issue been fixed. I've seen the 6010 Epson and while it rendered a superb image it did inherit crosstalk. Are the new Epson's fixed from this illness?

No! With the exception of the DLP projectors all other projectors will exhibit some cross-talk. If the 5010/6010 has too much cross-talk for you then I would suggest you stick to DLP for 3D.
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post #1249 of 4327
11/23/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

Just to add that for first 400 hours my X3 was in perfectly ventilated environment where I actually had to warm up to projector for 1/2 hour to get the best 3D out of it. That was in our old house before we moved 15 months ago. We lived in a temp house for 6 months in the middle where the X3 was in a box. At no point I got X3 as free of crosstalk as I got from X55 yesterday; out of the box it was there (had a set of movies bough before I even had the X3, watched them in the 1st night I got the X3), but it was mostly in control with most movies and thus blown away by the wow factor of this new 3D thing. I'm kind of sorry I did not watch the IMAX Grand Canyon Adventure yesterday frown.gif It shoved a lot of ghosting in the X3 and I watched it just once, within the week since I got the X3. After what we saw last year with crosstalk canceller etc. hype I was preparing myself for a letdown when I fired up the 3D in the X55. The letdown never came, at least with the testing I managed to do.
This test Zombie is doing is a huge service the community (my hat is off for this) and I'm only trying to add my limited experiences (with somewhat documented/defined environment) before the X55 is publicly available/testable. Personally, it was huge deal for me to 1st time ever get to test/compare the device I'm maybe planning to buy with the device it might be replacing. No home-grown test is perfect but personally I'm confident enuff on what I saw. With luck I get my X55 late next week; if so it would be my pleasure to test those very hardest hardest 3D scenes as the very 1st thing I do. If others have the projector before me then I'll add my experiences as an indication on how much unit variance there is smile.gif
Added some 2D experiences in the X55 thread, setup seems to make E-Shift 2 shine but since I'm watching 110 inch screen from such a close distance
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1424180/jvc-dla-rs48-dla-x55-projector-with-3d-rf-glasses-and-e-shift-cedia-2012/420#post_22617469

Thanks a bunch for your impressions so far and I am sure you can understand my skepticism after all the 3d hype last year and what ultimately materialized (nothing for all practical purposes) when us 45/55/65 owners actually got our projectors. frown.gif This year looks to be a different story to some degree which is great to hear. Looking forward to more reports as they come in.

When you do get your 55 hopefully next week, would you please report back on how 120hz material does, console games in particular? Since you know exactly how bad this was on your X3 (which I fully agree with as both my 40/45 were horrible here), I would LOVE to get your opinion on what improvements (if any) have been made here in particular. Hopefully the improved crosstalk performance has been extended to the 120hz area as well which is where the most improvement is needed.

Thanks again.
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post #1250 of 4327
11/23/12 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

Hi, what does the info screen of the HW50 say? If 60p framepacked it could only be 720p, because in 1080 the HW50 can not show 60p FP, only 24p FP.
With 24p FP material the projector shows 96 fps (24*2 per eye), with 60p material, the projectors shows 120 fps (60*1 per eye).
I've got no PS3 nor any 60p FP material so I can't test it.
Is it possible to set the PS3 to a 50p output? There the rate would be 100fps which is not so different from 96 fps, but then again you'll have more flicker.

It says '720/60p framepacked' when playing Crysis 2 & Uncharted 3 in stereoscopic 3D.

I thought you said 24p Blu-Ray 3D is displayed at 48Hz, not 96Hz... hence the 48Hz flicker that I can see during 3D Blu-Ray movies (on par w/ the flicker I see w/ true 70mm IMAX film projection... e.g. when viewing 'The Dark Knight Rises').

First of all, 720/60p doesn't even make sense for gaming, since most games are capped at 30fps. Why not output 720/30p? Then the 3D could run at 60Hz, which'd probably be easier for the panels to handle.
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post #1251 of 4327
11/23/12 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

In my opinion this has nothing to do with panel speed, they're fast enough. I think it has to do with shutter timing of the glasses.
With the MV-set you could set the timing via PC.
I have to see where I get some 60p material, in Europe everything is 50p. And 60p framepacked is even more difficult to get.

I doubt the panels are actually fast enough. If they were, no one would claim that motion handling is better on DLP for 24p content.

But I'll try & just do the following experiment tonight:

Take really high shutter speed shots (e.g. 1/4000s) of the screen (not through the glasses) continuously while displaying a freeze-frame of 1080/24p Blu-Ray 3D content. I'll use a freeze-frame of a scene showing significant ghosting. I'll take a few hundred shots this way (to make sure I've sampled enough frames that it's highly likely that at least one of these shots freezes the scene from the projector at a fully formed L or R frame). The result will be some shots will show the L frame, some the R frame, & others anything in between (as the panels are switching). If the panels are fast enough, then at least one of these shots, from the hundreds, will show a L or R frame with NO ghosting whatsoever.

If I can't find any frames with no ghosting, then the panels are, in fact, not fast enough.

Does that sound like a valid test?
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post #1252 of 4327
11/23/12 at 6:03pm
Even if the JVCs are as good or better than the non-DLP projectors isn't there still the issue of a dimmer picture, more flicker, and more issues with motion in 3D? The native contrast would be nice but if the picture looks unstable in 3D it would still seem to be somewhat of a let down. The added 3D brightness mentioned is supposed to come from the RF glasses which ring in at $179/pr. Presently I am using the Xpand X104 glasses.
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post #1253 of 4327
11/23/12 at 7:30pm
The 5010s are on sale at Visual Apex; $500 cheaper than the 5020... That's so very tempting! Anyone that's had or compared the 5010 to the 5020, could you chime in with the 2D difference between them? 3D would be nice, sort of; but realistically I'll hardly ever use it. If all the improvement are in the 3D, the price difference isn't worth it to me. I've seen a lot of talk about the improvements in 3D, but I haven't seen much 2D comparison. If somebody could chime in with comparative brightness, how well they both calibrate, noise, white field uniformity improvements, etc. Just how much better is the 5020 over the 5010 considering only 2D.

Also, I know Epson service is great--I have an 8700UB--but are they balking at swapping out PJs for issues like slight pink areas, etc?

Has anyone calibrated Dynamic on these PJs, and how well does it turn out? On the 8700UB, 100% green is impossible to get right, way too yellow. Also, you run out of Cyan at 75%. The grayscale calibrates up pretty well though. Overall it's actually pretty watchable in real world use. I should have my LPE filter next week--I hope--so that's a determining actor for me too.

Thanks!!!!!
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post #1254 of 4327
11/23/12 at 7:39pm
Another thing I'm interested in finding out is how 2D to 3D conversion looks on the new JVCs. IMO, the Epson 6010's 2D to 3D conversion is very poor. I've tried it with a number of shows and movies. The same is true of Panasonic conversion. My Samsung plasma gives the most satisfying experience of all the built-in technologies I've tried. It can be pleasing for some content, although it's inconsistent. I'm still considering the Teranex, and I'm almost certainly going to try the 3D Bee. The JVC tech is interesting, though, because JVC makes 2D to 3D converters that sell north of $20,000. I wonder if any of that tech has migrated to their projectors.

Jason,

Please make a note to try it out with a couple of films, both animation and real life. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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post #1255 of 4327
11/23/12 at 7:40pm
nah. You can switch them out for any reason. If you wan't u can just make something up and they still overnight u a projector. However, you will most likely get a refurb. There were times when I didn't feel like explaing the issue to a level one tech, because they don't know anything and then start asking you to do all kinds of stuff that you know isn't realated to the problem you're having. So, I just tell them it doesn't power on. LOL. Gets the RMA approved much faster.
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post #1256 of 4327
11/24/12 at 4:49am
In case anyone's else is interested, I have confirmed via a couple sources that the Epson can in fact do 3D and Vertical Stretch at the same time. Nobody here seemed to know so I did some research of my own.

Below is what I got from Dave Carty of Panamorph. He also mentioned some other projectors but he couldn't confirm those yet so I don't want to post those in case it's inaccurate info. He did mention the BenQ W7000 which I originally thought I read somewhere it couldn't, but maybe it was changed in the major FW update earlier this year.
Quote:
We’re actually compiling a list of projectors that will do 3D and Anamorphic and will put that on our website once we’ve been able to confirm compatibility but off the top of my head I can confirm that these projectors will work:



Epson 6010/6020

JVC 4K Projectors RS50/55 – X70/X90

BenQ W7000

Sony VW95ES/VW1000

Also, I got this response directly from Epson Customer Support, who was excellent in their response time to my inquiries. Kudos to them!
Quote:
The answer to your question is yes, you can view 3D content while using an Anamorphic lens. The settings in the projector menu when using an Anamorphic lens are "Horizontal Squeeze" and "Anamorphic Wide" depending on whether you choose the fixed lens or the sled lens kit.

Regards,

Richard M

Lastly, I went on to ask Epson Customer Support about them possibly updating via FW the enabling of CFI and SR in 3D. So far no dice, but I did ask them to pass on to the engineers that we want it!
Quote:
At this time, we have not been given any indication by our engineers that a firmware update to enable those features during 3D viewing is on the way.

Regards,

Richard M.
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post #1257 of 4327
11/24/12 at 11:15am
How does the Sony vw50es compare to the vw90es? I know the 50 should be brighter but what about overall image quality?
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post #1258 of 4327
11/24/12 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Sounds good. Depth 3d is what I find most impressive so it sounds like Nemo should be right up my alley. I am still dying to see Sammy's, but I have been way to cheap up to this point to pay the import price for it. Of course if I had a 3d projector I was excited about, I might be a little less tight. biggrin.gif Hope to land a smokin 7000 deal at some point soon.
The thing I am most curious about right now from all the projectors you have, or have coming is if the BenQ 7000 has a way to tame the light in the service menu which I know you mentioned you will check when you fire it back up at some point. I am very curious about this. The 7000 is still my top pick right now as far as my next projector move and pairing it with my 45 which should make a great combo for another year or two at which point maybe JVC will catch up in the 3d department. I really want FI in 3d and I really want to be rid of ghosting AND flicker which the new JVCs just wont accomplish this round. Hope there have been some solid improvement this time though which will be a step in the right direction at least. 2d of course will be killer and that is still going to be the big reason to buy a JVC no doubt.
How did you like Madagascar 3 for 3d? Lots of people are raving about the 3d on that disc and I blind bought it based on all of that for when I have a real 3d projector to watch it on.

Dude why didn't you say so... I'll hook you up. PM sent.

Hope had a fantastic Turkey Day (as with you all on this thread!)! biggrin.gif
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post #1259 of 4327
11/24/12 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks a bunch for your impressions so far and I am sure you can understand my skepticism after all the 3d hype last year and what ultimately materialized (nothing for all practical purposes) when us 45/55/65 owners actually got our projectors. frown.gif This year looks to be a different story to some degree which is great to hear. Looking forward to more reports as they come in.
When you do get your 55 hopefully next week, would you please report back on how 120hz material does, console games in particular? Since you know exactly how bad this was on your X3 (which I fully agree with as both my 40/45 were horrible here), I would LOVE to get your opinion on what improvements (if any) have been made here in particular. Hopefully the improved crosstalk performance has been extended to the 120hz area as well which is where the most improvement is needed.
Thanks again.

The fact that he's even struggling to see ghosting is at least very encouraging (especially on a pre-prod).
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post #1260 of 4327
11/24/12 at 11:12pm
Zombie (or any other videophile), can you give me some advice? For 2D ONLY, which would be better. The new RS4810 or a used RS35 (older model with handpicked parts)? My seating distance will be 1.6 SW. I appreciate the response. smile.gif
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout 2012-2013