Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 8

It would be nice, but I doubt Zombie can get one without buying it (maybe if AVS helps him, we'll see)...

5x wheel would probably be fine for me as well, I don't know much about the sharp, Art reviewed it and maybe PJC as well (forget). I think the issue in the past was focus issues on the lens and sometimes amount of lumens for 3D. Also the bulb costs on Sharps have been a real killer on some units (ridiculous).

Keep in mind the Mits is 4x at default, you have to set it to 6x. I am not too worried about posterization with the Mits, if it happens I'd just calibrate around it (if possible) or use 4x in 3D if I had to. I don't think the CW will cause that much effects, maybe some.

I been using that same shelf for 2 years now

I just want to go over to Zombie's house and yank on one of those loose cables and see if he gets mad :)_
Maybe I'll just recline back and see what happens...

The problem with measurements, assuming they are reasonably accurate, is that one has to know what they mean with respect to his perception. So many just go on numbers and say WOW, its 28% better so I should buy it being an X characteristic freak. So many choose say a projector because its a 100 Lumens better when in reality because of the log function of our eyes, the perception might be say only 5% better. The same goes for black reference levels. Sharpness can be seen and its not really a log function. The perception comments above are valid and very relevant but they will go unheaded by most.

another problem is what is measured itself. ANSI Contrast. Something totally artificial. relevant to distinguishing some re two projectors, that is say one ANSI is 110 and the other 130 but most have no idea what that means to PQ. And intrascene contrast, a much more relevant consideration, most don't even a have clue and would never consider it. One needs to se a projector in a proper set up to see how good it is, to see its strengths and weakenesses. Unfornutyately that really can't be done anymore for most.

Good points Mark. You have a unique perspective because you had to sort through all that mess from translating forum posts to how you thought a particular buyer would fit into a particular projector. Sharpness is so hard to tell people how much it matters because like how close do they sit and what type of stuff do they watch...

Projectors that are not as sharp have more trouble when you start adding processing to them, like they will start to ring much quicker. This is very apparent on my Pro8200 backup projector, it really does produce a decent image for such a low cost unit (besides blacks of course), but I can't add much processing to it (the Darby helps some, but as Zombie noted it helps the least on the lesser sharp projectors because the luminance adjustment is harder to see where the edges are as defined when it blurs more together).

After seeing reference level movies on a JVC (like Tree of Life), I almost want every movie to look that good (although the movie itself will bore you to tears, it has some amazing camera work). Speaking of which I should probably be buying some more Blurays soon to find some new stuff.
Edited by coderguy - 10/23/12 at 11:50pm

Well look at the name of it "the tree of life" lol I can't imagine it being a good plot

Yeah. It's about botanical garden. lol

The blacks of the W7000 looks pretty good to me. What is your opinion on the black level of the W7000 in 2D and 3D Zombie?

Thank you for this comparison. It clearly show DLP's advantage in sharpness over Sony because even without any fancy sharpening algorithms it looks as sharp as Sony HW50 with RC on.
Now my hopes are set high for Mitsubishi HC8000.

The blacks of the W7000 looks pretty good to me. What is your opinion on the black level of the W7000 in 2D and 3D Zombie?

I had the W7000 and also a couple of JVC's so feel I can help here. Firstly, you can't tell black level from a screenshot. For example, if I take a screenshot which represents fairly well the black level - if I speed the shutter up, I can make it look much better and likewise if I slow it, I can make it look worse.
Native contrast of the BenQ is its weak point and due to high lumen output, its black floor is quite high - a bit grey for some peoples liking. In 3D, it improves a lot (not contrast, just the black floor) This is obvious and expected, the light output is reduced and therefore the black is no longer as bright.

For 2D, I added an ND4 filter which replicates the 3D image. The light output is reduced and therefore your black floor looks much better and dare I say it, quite a nice deep black! The filter can't work miracles though and it doesn't improve contrast - its just a way of managing light output and with the ND4 filter on, the images loses some of its 'DLP pop' - so a trade of between punchy image or better black floor.

Zombie has already touched on the point that doing a side by side screen shot of 2 projectors would be good, but virtually impossible to give you anything meaningful. For that, you would need both projectors outputting very very similar lumens. Looking at 2 images side by side by eye, not at the same lumens, you'll still be able to get a meaningful understanding of whats going on - but as soon as you get the camera out, one image will be spot on and one overblown, or one spot on and one way underexposed. Would be nice to see but difficult to pull off this type of side by side image. On video, you wouldn't notice the light variance quite as much but the camera sensor certaintly does. This goes back to that discussion that light output perception not being linear....

Its going to be hard for zombie to give us the RS55 and HW50 like for like 2D shots too, as unless he can get both to output the same lumens, or at least very very close, one will look brighter than the other and the duller one will appear to have a better black level, even if that is not necessarily the case.
I tried to photograph the Optoma HD87 and JVC HD750 when I had them side by side and it was a nightmare trying to get the light output the same. I obviously wanted to keep the camera setting identical so that the comparisons had value but it was quite hard work.Thankfully both had manual iris so I got there in the end but for those that don't know, Zombie won't just be pausing the image and pressing click on the camera for a lot of these shots, there is a bit of work required to get these pictures presented.

Wow the Benq W7000 was made for 3D! It definitely looks like its projecting a solid 3D image with no flicker and no ghosting. Not to mention bright. I think no matter what the case is with JVC's 3D improvements, it still will not look as good as the Benq, so a two projector system is really the only way to get the best of both worlds. JVC for 2D and Benq for 3D. Can't beat that.

Actually you can but for the money two projectors are best if 3D is important to one and one desires better 3D. As the price goes up considerably, one projector can do both and beat both.

Likewise, once you throw 3D in, the best screen would be two screens, the 3d one being high gain and with the JVC ideally having a high polarization extinction ratio. With 3D, there really is nothing that would be too bright.

Hi Zombie

in reference to what I mentioned about taking photo's of the JVC HD750 v Optoma HD87, while its a PITA to try and get outputs the same, it can be good to show contrast performance as a A v B (and not the absolute performance which is as you quite rightly say, is futile)

When I did mine, I managed to get both black floors to the same level as can be seen in the black bars below where the pause sign is. We can then see that its no problem for the Optoma to match the JVC on black floor, but it also helps us to see the dynamic range of both PJ's. So while both pics below should good black floor, we can see the JVC has more depth and scale to the image, as a result of its better native contrast. That said, we can still see the HD87 is no slouch either when looking at shadow detail for example. I tried this scene with the BenQ W7000 and by the time I got the black floor to a similar level, it was like someone had put a cloth bag over my head - the shadow detail was crushed beyond recognition - just as I had expected as it simply doesn't have that sort of range in its armoury.

So I'm hoping you could do something similar with the HW50 and JVC - get the black floor to match and post the pics. We know the JVC will win but we can also see as a benchmark how good a job the Sony does with its native contrast.

HD87:

JVC HD750:


HD87:

JVC HD750:

Do the single chip DLPs like the 7000 stil have "mustard" colored yellows and the neon greens? I have had a 3 chip DLP for so long I forgot. I was wondering if there was any improvement there?

Also in the "Journey" shots... are these from behind the glasses? if so i am noticing the RC menu looks a bit out of focus. Would it be possible in the futre to show a static menu in each fram to give a focus reference for both images. The glasses themselves may not be perfectly aligned in each shot either.

Thanks you for your work...


I will send in some comparisons from the Infocus DC3 vs. the HW50 shot with my 5DmkII on a tripod and a tack sharp 85mm / 1.4 for reference. Bracketing a few shots is a good idea, maybe a few HDRs would bbe interesting as well..

Nice job of exposing those cave shots and snowscapes...I agree in all screenshots theres is tendancy to crush the blacks giving a false sense of the floor. it is a fine line to walk.

I think capturing a live menu for sharpness context and lack of black crush will add to the discussion.

Hey Zombie10k, just want to say that I LOVE what you're doing here. Thanks for taking the time to get this information out there. I do have one question, though, that ultimately determines whether I'd but this or the HW30. I'm going to be using this projector for gaming a LOT, and I know the HW30 is the king of gaming because the input lag is so low in its specific "game mode" setting. From my understanding, the HW50 also has a game mode. Is the input lag just as low as the HW30 in this mode? I'm really hoping the HW50 either matches it or bests it, because I REALLY want this projector. Thanks!!

He will post his lag findings when he gets a chance (he's still working on all this stuff).

Best you can do with screenshots of black levels is to correct them in a paint program to match what you see then give commentary. No matter how perfect you take the image, it will never be a valid comparison in the sense of how much difference we are supposed to see. Plus so many people have Brightness + Contrast messed up on their monitor (and Gamma), that it's a fruitless experiment, because the only people that will try to decipher which PJ to buy from screenshots are so new that they probably didn't calibrate their monitor anyways (and might not even have it ballpark).

Heck I don't even calibrate all my monitors, one is calibrated. The others don't even have the black floor right probably, so even I am too NEW to see the difference...

Sure you can see a difference with a picture, but it won't be the right amount of difference is what I'm saying....
Edited by coderguy - 10/29/12 at 1:00am

OK... I hope my copy is better than that... because that is alot more than a hair soft in my book.

The 18-55 (canon?) is a little soft in the corners as well. What is the F stop used in this pic?

Do you use remote shutter release / timer and mirror lock up for these?
Edited by tehotaone - 10/24/12 at 8:54am

Zombie, just a little off-topic here:

I own a RS40 atm and have the opportunity to sell it for € 1700 and buy a RS55 for € 3250 so +€ 1500 from my wallet. Would this be a good choise to make?

I'm too lazy to convert the dollar lol, but that seems about right doing some quick math in my head. We're close enough to the new ones dropping I'd recommend waiting if you don't need one right away. The pre order prices through AVS are pretty attractive.

Excited to hear that projectors are making progress on lumens output and black level. I had a 1.0 gain screen, and white ceiling, so those 2 aspect are what I am looking for most.
Thanks Zombie for the shootout. For most of us, we do not have $$$ and time and experience to do, so what you have done allow us to pick what fit us best. Many thanks!
I currently had an RS55, and after 3D cube calibration, it is looking really good. However, I think my lamp is getting old (only 300hrs), as GAMMA is drooping like crazy, and red cannot keep up at high WHITE%. I am probably going to skip RS56 for this year, and hopefully Sony or JVC can come up with even better model for next year!!

Thanks zombie for this! Question: was the Panny AE8000 left out for any specific reason, or was it simply not within reach for you to evaluate? I was wondering how it would stack up to the Epson 5020 and many consider these 2 PJs direct competitor models. Thanks!