Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 96

I'm forced into a short throw set-up as well. My RS4810 is gonna be about 12 feet away from my 110" Carada Brilliant White 1.3 gain screen. Can I just close the iris a little or something?

I missed it if there was discussion of how the filter mounts to the projector. How does that work?

No worries! I still need your address so I can ship the filter to you too.

The Duo doesn't do anything more than 1 point per color, so I don't think an autocal would be any better than a manual, just faster. The Mini 3D on the other hand...

I have the same screen, same throw distance, and same projector and closing down the iris works great. Don't worry, it won't be too bright.

Thank god, that's great to hear!!!

Got my DLA-4810 yesterday. I did a basic calibration only.
I have a 150" 16:9 Elite Screen Lunette with CineWhite (1.1 material), with a 15'6" throw distance, which is short throw distance for this size screen.
With my quick calibration I ended up with aperture at -15 and low lamp setting.
I have not measured the lumens, however, it is noticeably brighter than my previous projector (DLA-HD250), and almost brighter than I like.

I also watched tested 3D with Hugo, and for me there was more than enough brightness on my screen.
I enjoyed the movie with no ghosting issues to reduce my enjoyment.
However, bear in mind, I watched the movie with intent to enjoy the movie, rather than putting my face within 2 feet of the the screen to look for ghosting.
I will watch other 3D movies over the next few days to see how the projector performs. My focus will be on the overall movie presentation and not microscopic search for defects.
I think many may be loosing out on their projector enjoyment due to searching for defects, rather than just sitting back and enjoying the movie watching experience.
Will see - I hope other 3D movies will perform as well as Hugo - if they do I will be very happy with this projector.

Please keep in mind, my HT has complete light control (pitch black, no windows), with dark walls, dark carpet, black ceiling and black seating.
The screen is surrounded with ~2 foot deep custom cabinet wrapped in black fabric, which also contributes to reducing light reflections.

Update - Convergence on my unit was very good. Only had to adjust red horizontally by 1 pixel. Now the white grid pattern is perfectly white. Focus with e-shift turned off shows sharp pixel grid from close up.
Edited by Dionyz - 1/9/13 at 10:04am

My room, though light-controlled, isn't the bat cave yours is. And you won't have to put your nose to the screen so see ghosting, so if you didn't see it on Hugo, you should be pretty good to go.

But I'm with you...whenever I get a new display I always over analyze it for the first few days looking for any and all anomalies before I'm finally able to accept its flaws (real or imagined) and enjoy the show.

The problem with ghosting is that it tends to worsen as the lamp ages and unless you are using a DLP for 3D you will at some point find it annoying. My Epson 6010 now has some hours on the lamp and I notice more ghosting. The Epsons are known to be about as good as it gets for non-DLP projectors when it comes to ghosting. I am now seriously considering a DLP for 3D only. Don't get me wrong -- on the majority of stuff the Epson is very good, but like many here I'm really fussy.

Jason: at some point would you please rate these projectors for 2D, 3D and for both. Have you tried the 2D to 3D conversion on the Mits yet? Maybe the same projector will win in every category, but I doubt it. I've decided not to bother trying the Sony so I'll do what Toe did and get a DLP for 3D only chores in my main room. I think I'm going to move the 6010 to my "secondary" screening room for 2D and 3D duties.

General question... Should x.v.color setting be used when available? Any downside to using it? How does its use effect the color space chosen in the projector settings? Is the color space still as selected but now it just uses more bits?

Thanks

Rec 709 is the color space used by the movie and TV industry. Using any other color space is, for all intents and purposes, incorrect.

Does that mean it will have negative impact on your picture? Depends what you mean by negative. When using colors outside the space of the standard your display has to guess what colors should be used in lieu of the ones it doesn't know. This would result in something other than the maker of the content intended you to see, assuming it's rec 709 content, and would be incorrect, but that doesn't mean that it won't look better in your personal opinion.

It's up to you if you want to use it but if you do use it, just know that you probably aren't seeing what you were intended to. Whether that makes any difference to you or not, only you know.

Let me translate a bit. when a source is captured it may contain colors outside those within 709. if these colors are put into rec 709 space, they must be moved from their real color to a color within 709. So basically every picture you see in rec 709 has wrong colors because real colors outside the space are moved to within it,


Now let's playback the source on a rec 709 space. The rec 709 space will be able to display every color stored with the source 709 space. Those colors themselves were not the true colors filmed by after they were moved they are reproduced as moved.. Now we say lets play that 709 space back on a wider space display. One with redder redderd, blueer blues, and greener greens. however the source has placed those colors, or coded them to locations within the 709 space. The display has to somehow move those colors to some place with its own space. So its like a duh, lrets move this one here and that one there withrespect to any color coded on a boundary of the rec 709 space. How much bluer than rec 709 max blue. I dunno. that's the problem but differtent it will be from what colors are in the source.;

Maybe a naive question, but: are projectors color-managed? I.e. do they translate colors from the rec 709 color space to the color space of the projector using a color engine (like Mac OS X does transparently, or Adobe CS via the Adobe Color Engine)?

My guess is no. Which is probably why color calibration is important.

Our Cinerama in Seattle appears to have a projector that puts out gaudily saturated colors. Samsara & Cloud Atlas were all ridiculously saturated. I have a feeling it's b/c their projector is a pretty wide gamut projector that hasn't been profiled/calibrated. A wide gamut display, if sent uncorrected sRGB values for example, will appear gaudily saturated.

Of course, I can profile my HW50 using my ColorMunki spectrophotometer & create a profile for use with Mac OS X. Then anything that I watch via my MacBook Pro will have colors properly converted before sent to the display. At least that's how it works for photographs.

I don't know about video/video players.

Can someone clear all this up for me? Thanks

That was Yoda-esque. Thanks.

I gather bluray does not support x.v.color so I would have to use a source such as a camcorder. As this is not likely in my setup I believe I can leave X.V.Color OFF in my Sony HW 50 and also OFF in my bluray player until such time as I have source material that might take advantage of it.

Thanks

Not all projectors have a CMS (colour management system) but many have modes that are reasonably accurate. The older generations of JVC projectors such as the RS1 had very oversaturated colour gamuts so greens would look a bit 'neon' and red lips could look a bit too red (even on men sometimes).

What Mark says about the cameras may be true, but films are processed/colour timed using calibrated displays so they adjust the colours so that they look how they want you to see them. Therefore the only way you get to see the film as it was intended to look (rather than with an expanded colour gamut which isn't accurate, though it may be your preference) is by viewing on a display with a colour gamut that matches rec709 (or perhaps SMPTE-C some would argue).

can anyone give me their comparison of the "apparent sharpness" (i.e. from viewing distance) of the hw50 with RC ON vs the benqw7000?
I know the sony isn't as natively sharp, but with RC on does it appear sharper still?

thanks for that. sony with rc and darbee is the ultimate in sharpness at this price range then?

I got a Darbee for my Epson 6010, and I liked it so much that I added one for my Samsung plasma. It does wonders for both displays.

How would you rate the different projectors for native and perceived/enhanced sharpness? Did you get a chance to tweak each of the projectors for perceived sharpness (even the ones without fancy on-board enhancement, e.g. the HC8000D with the Darbee)?

This is concerning for those with powerful subs. Which projectors handle LFE without losing focus or other issues with the projector/lens?

You should start a thread for that. I've had to work to keep subwoofer vibrations from affecting my picture ( small room, big sub ) !!

I have had issues as far as LFE lens disturbance with ALL my manual lens projectors over the years, so this is not just a 7000 issue. Projectors that have fully motorized optics from my experience are much more stable and only have very slight shift in my room which is a non issue for the most part. If you want the least issues though I would get a motorized lens if possible.

Having said the above I would certainly not rule out a manual lens projector as far as LFE shake goes if you have strong subs. With a little creative effort padding up the lens, putting on sorbothene feet, etc.....you can make a manual lens projector work as long as you are not planning on messing with the lens once you get it stable (doing the zoom method for CIH as an example).

What if you decoupled the mount from the ceiling? (assuming you ceiling mount)

That could work, but I am using a shelf mount with my projectors to accommodate a HP 2.8 screen which I LOVE. When I was using a ceiling mount though with my other screens, I was able to simply pad up the lens between the lens and projector housing with some foam/rubber type material which was enough to keep things stable for the most part. A little experimenting and trial/error should get a stable lens though from my experience even though it is a PITA initially.

Us serious projector hobbyists just have to use shelves most of the time, changing projectors out and adding/removing as often as we do, it is an absolute pain to keep ceiling mounting different PJ's.
I use a tall wire-grid shelf for multiple projectors, the HP screen is the BEST screen for A/B'n because you can modify the gain of different projectors by moving them higher or lower on a shelf to equalize the FOOT LAMBERTS between them when A/B.

This is why even though my setup is FAR uglier than a ceiling mount (mainly because of my current room's design), I just don't care. There are ways to make shelf mounting semi-aesthetically pleasing, but not in my current room as there is a dumb bar area behind it.

A color is one point defined by a set of coordinates. The Duo only does the primaries, secondaries, and white, so it does 7 points. The Lumagen will do 124 points. Some mistakenlt say 125 points but the 125 point is black and you can calibrate black..

Okay, it took several days, but I finally made it through this thread. I'm still on the fence between the JVC RS46 and the Sony HW50, and my leaning changes about ever 3 or 4 hours...

One area that I haven't seen discussed much (if at all) is normal TV viewing (but not sports). I understand the focus on movies in the thread, but I use my current PJ (7+ year old Optoma HD77) as much if not more for watching normal HDTV shows than I do movies. Shows like NCIS, Covert Affairs, Burn Notice, usually something from SyFy (when they stop canceling shows I like). I suspect that for this type of material that either could be equally well suited, but am curious if anyone has any comments either way. I've never had any sort of FI on my PJ and even on my 65" plasma I've never used it, but maybe I could see using it for the larger PJ image if the effect was natural looking. It seems like from the motion standpoint that the Sony might have the advantage here.

I've yet to see any 3D (commercial theater only) that made me think, oh wow I have to have that, so 2D TV and movie performance are definitely top priorities. I'm not opposed to trying out 3D to see if there is content that I'd appreciate/enjoy.

Just as an FYI since it's always said, so many factors contribute to...
My room (currently a work in progress) will be approximately 20'x14' with 10' ceilings. It will be totally light controlled with dark walls and ceiling (flooring is still being decided but I'll go dark if I can).
Screen will be small by comparison to many here at 110" 1.1 gain with the primary seating around 11-12 ft. I plan on a riser and a second row of seats behind the first.
Projector will likely be ceiling mounted but location isn't set yet. Likely over top and slightly behind the first row of seats (say 14' or so), further back is possible too so long as it can be placed out of the way of people in the second row moving in/out of their seat.

I quiet agrre with Zombie

For video projection (unlike phtography) , when you already reach a certain degree of « pixel level » résolution, then other factors like :

1- Temporal résolution will have a real importance for perceived « dynamic » sharpness : temporal resolution is proportional to the number of real full hd frames per second. Thats why in camcorder domaine filming a moving subject in 1080p (p : progressive : 50real frames per sec ) the perceved sharpness will be higher than with 1080i ( interlaced only 25 real frames mixed up to make 50 as old VHS standard).
(Frame doubling, insertion is one artificial way to overcome technical challege of 1080p in projection to make it more flued and more sharp)

2-The other factors contributing to perceived sharpness are , dynamic range, color space, contrast and black level (Darbee helps) . Those have a big contribution to make an image looks more « real » more 3d looking ( ex plasma blacks adavantage versus lcd flat pannels)

3- Installation conditions : If 1 and 2 conditions are OK and you have a top notch projector , then installation conditions (prépared or not home conema will be the next factor for perceived quality .

These are my temporary conclusion , being interested in video+photography and projectors waiting for other persons perpective