Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 99

Like I said, I'm realistic lol. I know going in that I'm not gonna get Plasma type black levels. I also know that it's much more affordable to get a projector and a 100-110" screen than it is to get a 100-110" plasma, so, got to trade off somewhere.

I'm just looking for good black levels and great perceived contrast more than actual. Better than waiting for affordable OLEDs lol.

I know I keep using Art's numbers, but he sets up all his PJs the same way and uses the same equipment and environment, so their is a baseline there to go off on.

He measured the 5020 in best mode at 678 lumens, the HW50Es in best mode at 992 lumens, and the VW1000ES in best mode at greater than 1200 lumens. Maybe my understanding isn't up to snuff, but wouldn't you use 3D in one of the calibrated cinema modes? If so, I don't see how the the 1000ES wouldn't be brighter. Again, I'm new to the projector game. Hell, I don't even have one yet lol. I'm just trying to absorb as much as I can and make an informed decision.
Edited by Stuntman_Mike - 1/11/13 at 11:12am

Art had this to say about the Sony 1000: "I am rather happy with the Sony for 3D. Sure, some more lumens would be better, but the 3D is rather clean. Even in the High setting for the glasses, it was rather good. Certainly the best I've seen from an LCoS projector or 3LCD projector. Single chip DLP's are different, when it comes to 3D artifacts. I haven't had a good one of those in here in a while. I think just about everyone will find the 3D to be at least satisfactory." I think he measured the Sony at 1176 lumens for 2D. No idea about 3D, but I'll bet it is a lot less than either the Sony 50 or in particular the Epson 5020 when calibrated -- if a projector in best mode for 3D is so dim you can't see anything on the screen then who cares? I think Zombie calibrated the 5020 in 3D and got 1400 lumens. That's more than the Sony 1000 in 2D!

This is a $25,000 projector and he says he thinks everyone will find the 3D at least satisfactory. I hope so for that price! The problem with projectors in this price range (as with the Qualia 004) is that in 4 or 5 years they're dinosaurs and have lost so much in resale value that they can't compete with current $3,000 projectors. I should know since I owned a Sony G90. The world moves on. If I remember correctly the 1080p Qualia sold for about $30,000 or a little less) in 2004 or 2005 and shortly after that Sony introduced the 1080p Ruby at $10,000 with 8 Xs the on/off contrast ratio!
Edited by Deja Vu - 1/11/13 at 11:16am

I know that DLPs are generally louder than the other technologies, but when ceiling mounted, is the fan noise and iris that noticeable during quiet moments of viewing? I know that this is pretty subjective, but I don't know of any place to experience some of these projectors first hand, so I'll take all the subjective I can get.

I listed his measurements for best mode for each projector in 2D and the 1000ES was brighter than the 50ES and twice as bright as the Epson.

You can't compare zombie's measurements to Art's because they aren't in the same environment and don't have the same throw, zoom, screen etc. That's why I'm going by Art's because the environment is the same and he measured all of them under the same circumstances.

If zombie had a new 1000ES and calibrated it in his room it would probably be higher than what Art got also.

First RS46 had stuck pixels so AVS took it back (it only had 3 hours on it). Second RS46 was fine but decided to trade up to the RS4810.

Have you tried calling JVC directly and going through their Perfect Experience program? If your projector is defective within the first 30 days they'll advance-ship you a replacement.

How can you say this unequivocally about the 2013 JVCs? No one has that many hours on a new JVC projector yet and the bulbs this year are supposed to age more gracefully than they have in prior years. Plus, if the performance of last year's models is your benchmark for JVC 3D performance, and if the pre-firmware RS46 is representative of last year's models in 3D, then 3D has come a long way for the 2013 projectors IMHO.

I guess only time will tell for sure how the 2013 JVCs perform as the bulb ages. I'm not saying you won't be right, but no one knows for sure until get some real evidence.

I just calibrated the Sony HW50 in Low Lamp mode.
After calibration it went from 12,30fL to 18,60fL on my 120"screen.
It is a perfect projector to calibrate as well.
Everything stay's at place while going from Greyscale to CMS and back for check.
What a great pleasure to do with this unit.

I was planning on keeping it in High Lamp mode but since this will save a lot of Lamplife, I can now brighten the projector in at least three stages while lamp ages while picture keeps great.
If it is going too dim I'll go to High Lamp Mode and Limited Iris, and than Full Iris whit a perfect DeltaE.
Picture keeps 100% perfect this way through the entire lamplife.

I was stunned how good this projector looked in 3D.
Everything works while watching 3D on this projector and it is amazing to experience.
No way I'm going to the cinema now I have this projector here..
Motion Enhancer and Iris in 3D is fantastic.
This is just what I missed on the TW9000W.
It is time Epson is putting FI in their next Gen projector.

Is the Buzzing sound during 3D solved or is that something that belongs to the HW50.
Edited by Matthieu - 1/11/13 at 12:32pm

Hi zomie
If you permit me .. Where did you get these wonderful lamps? I looked it up in the Internet and did not find it ... Please could you tell me where I get them.

I plan to make the darkness in the ceiling of my room

How about a $1000 3D projector as a comparison -- the Benq 1070? Art had this to say:

"Back to the 3D performance. With a proper cable, crosstalk is a non-factor. I found watching 3D to be rather enjoyable and relatively bright. Color was pretty good (in 3D), I don't expect color as good as 2D, and we have never tried to calibrate 3D. The excellent brightness allowed me to put on some widescreen movies and fill my 124" diagonal. Not bad, watchably bright. At 100" diagonal there's plenty of lumens for 3D. Afterall, consider that 400 lumens is more than enough (with proper lack of ambient light) to watch a 100" screen. With over 1700 lumens calibrated, that's more than 4 times as much. 3D no longer costs 75% of brightness even if it does cost viewers a good bit more than half the brightness. Translated, this W1070 can do a great job in 3D on an average sized screen."

I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

The 3 projectors mentioned were measured in the same environment and all were calibrated for 2D. The 1000ES measured highest of the 3 and almost twice as bright as the Epson. I know that Art doesn't calibrate for 3D or list lumens measured through the glasses for 3D, which is why it wasn't listed. The point is, if you have the PJ calibrated, wouldn't you either:

A) use a calibrated mode for 3D viewing, or
B) calibrate in 3D through the glasses for an even more accurate picture to offset glasses tint?

If you choose either A or B, then it makes no difference what Art measured in an uncalibrated 3D mode. Furthermore, the 1000ES is brighter than the 50ES in both Best mode (calibrated) and brightest mode (uncalibrated). It's brighter across the board. And the Epson is obviously just pushing a lot of Green to get its inflated brightness numbers out of the box. Why else would it lose so many lumens after calibration (678 )?

Not trying to be a jerk, and don't take this as an attack or in a condescending tone. I really am just trying to understand what you are trying to say.

Experience...
Every non-DLP projector ghosts more as the lamp ages, every one I've seen, and LCOS is the worst at this. You guys are watching 3D at micro-lumens compared to how I was watching it. Sure if you don't mind dark 3D it won't ghost that bad, JVC always been like that. Zombie is the expert and he's the one that stated it's a very minor improvement if you EQUAL LUMEN for LUMEN.

Yes, I'd expect the performance to degrade as the bulb ages. But the bulbs are different on the 2013 JVCs, so if they don't dim as fast, then why would the 3D start to ghost at the same rate as prior years' models?

Zombie may well be the expert, but there was a substantial improvement when going from 3D on the RS46 to 3D on the RS4810. It was not a subtle improvement. For example, BD menu text on the RS46 was practically illegible because there was so much crosstalk. Not so on the RS4810. I could go on and on, but both settings were compared using the same settings and same configuration.

More importantly, AFAIK Zombie (nor anyone else other than me) has used the JVC RF emitter with the JVC glasses on the 2013 projectors. Anything other than this combination would likely be sub-optimal, but without actually trying it, you guys certainly can't assume that what you saw was representative of the performance of the JVC projectors with JVC's own emitter and glasses.

I'm sure Zombie is accurately describing what he saw with respect to JVC's 3D performance. And I'm not arguing that most other 3D projectors wouldn't beat the 3D performance of the JVCs in brightness and crosstalk. But for you to dismiss the fact that there's a substantial improvement by extrapolating last year's projectors' performance to this year's projector's performance without giving the JVCs a fair shot (by testing them using the recommended OEM equipment) is disingenuous.

I'm now the second person around here who's claimed that the 3D performance of the 2013 projectors isn't that bad. Doesn't that at least make you interested enough to check it out using the matching OEM equipment before dismissing our claims out-of-hand because we don't have as much "experience?" That doesn't seem very scientific or objective to me -- more like hard-headed and stubborn.

I don't have anywhere to go see it atm, it was hard enough finding a place to see e-shift. Got a DLP moved onto greener 3D pastures.
Until the JVC Ghosting = Epson, I am not interested in making assumptions based on a few people.

When I first got the RS-45, it didn't ghost that bad either, it took a while and depends on how bright you have it and what you are watching. Granite, your JVC may ghost significantly less than the RS-45 even if at the same lumens, but I have doubts to these testing methods unless A/B at exact same lumens.

My x35 with the new firmware and the JVC RF glasses is too bright in 3d on high lamp for me and the missus.
Have a 100" screen and a reasonably dark room.
No ghosting to report whatsoever,even with SBS material.
Image is incredibly clean and popps heaps.
I set up my brothers x35 the other day.He has a 120" screen in a bat cave.His was bordelining between low and high lamp
mode for 3d.Some prefered the low,others the high.
Again no crosstalk whatsoever.I mean totally absent on 2 projectors after several hours of viewing.
Also in relation to Zombies test.I set my crosstalk cancell setting around 6-8,and see no crosstalk.I beleive his was around the
0 setting.
We have never ever seen better 3d.Be it at the cinemas or the many projectors i demoed last year.Someone i know went from a
Panny 7000 to the X35 and is over the moon with the improvement in 3d.
I think it depends on the kind of movies watched.We dont watch kids cartoon 3d movies,where the extra brightness maybe beneficial.
On Avatar ,Prometheus, and other such movies i cant reallly imagine anything better.Dont think extra brightness will make these movies any better.
Better contrast on the other hand makes these 3d movie really shine.
Watched the last harry potter last night.I kept flicking it over to the bright 3d mode.Then we would switch it back to natural low lamp as the
picture and black levels was just far superior.

I remember being elated when I got my replacement JVC RS40 a couple of years back. I had racked up 2-300 hours on the first one by the time the second arrived (AVS replaced it because of bad convergence, but there was a substantial delay getting the replacement). At that time, the first RS40 had already begun to ghost badly. I was happy to report in the original comparison thread that the second RS40 had very little ghosting. A couple of hundred hours later, it was deja vu all over again. When I read JVC's claims that it had improved ghosting with the second gen projectors, I ordered an RS45. But the 3D sucked - really sucked - and the ghosting controls never did anything. From what I've seen of screen shots from this generation, it looks like JVC returned more to its first gen formula, sacrificing contrast for the sake of ghosting and providing ghosting controls that actually do something. Pardon me if I'm skeptical, but I expect to hear the same familiar ghost stories after users get a few hundred hours on their lamps. Only time will tell.

The JVC panels remain the same this year, so I don't expect performance to be that different. As Jason says, the only real fix for ghosting is probably going to involve a major do-over of the technology. Even my Epson 6010 has substantially more ghosting at 2,000 hours, although I'd rate it right now as better than my JVCs at 200 hours (better than the RS45 when the lamp was NEW). As a matter of fact, I'm satisfied enough with the Epson 6010 as both a 2D and 3D projector that I'm still holding to my plan to wait for the Red laser projector before I buy again. I'd have to read about something more than the incremental improvements this year's models seem to have achieved to change my mind.

Thanks Zombie (Jason) that is the reason why I decided to stick to my RS45 with great converegence and focus. for 2D. I have tried the new emitter and many glasses work with it including the $20 Samsung. I would also guess that the Panasonic and other 2012 glasses would also work. The problem is ghosting. I put on Sammy again and I could not watch it. I have been playing around with the Benq W1070 and while it is no match in any way with the JVC or most any other $3000 plus projector for 2D it is a great option for those who can place it for 3D. It is really a pleasure to watch 3D without ghosting and with enough brightness. The 1070 is also nice for sports or casual viewing since the lamp can last up to 6,000 hours. It has received good reviews and will worth for those who can place it. It will not work with HP screens as has been pointed out.

I also feel that next year we will see big changes from JVC and others.
Edited by rwestley - 1/11/13 at 5:15pm

Guys, I'm not trying to convince anyone that this year's JVC projectors are better (or even on par with) the Sonys, Epsons, and Benqs. All I'm saying is that reading this thread gives one the impression that JVC 3D is completely unwatchable. For my needs (where I fully expect to watch significantly more 2D than 3D), I chose the JVC completely aware of its 3D limitations. I was expecting far, far worse 3D performance than what my RS4810 is putting out. In fact, the pre-firmware RS46 ghost-fest was what I was prepared for. When my 4810 arrived, I was thrilled to see how much better the 3D was. I'm not saying it's awesome or the end-all, be-all of 3D. But it is certainly adequate, if not downright good. I guess the thread set my expectations pretty low, and I was surprised at how much the 4810 wound up exceeding them.

Put it this way...I won't be ashamed to have my friends come over to watch a 3D movie on my JVC. I'm sure they'll be blown away by the picture quality (because they won't have seen anything better)...and that's more than I expected to say about the JVC's 3D.

Thanks again for taking all the subjective talk out of the equation Zombie with those shots which speak VOLUMES. Reduced ghosting................and also reduced brightness, contrast and detail. Lateral move at best this year all things considered for JVC as far as 3d goes. Like you mention, a complete overhaul is needed to get REAL 3d improvements for the 2014 models.

I am going to Cedia this year since it is in my backyard and am looking forward to see if JVC brings this much needed overhaul for 3d. Honestly though now that I have the 7000, my interest in JVCs 3d has plummeted quite a bit. Having a machine with zero ghosting, zero flicker, better motion/FI in 3d and good brightness, my only real motivation for better 3d from JVC is so I could go back to a single projector solution. Going back to one projector would be nice in a sense I suppose, but running 2 projectors actually has some nice advantages in the fact that you can split up the bulb hours and I can save the JVC 45 for what it is truly meant for, 2d movies. My main motivation seeing the JVCs at Cedia is still 2d in light of all this. IF they do an overhaul though, I would also love to see lag time cut in half or better if possible. FI in 3d also needs to be added to not only the JVCs (It would be great if the FI could be even further refined in general to get it on par with the BenQ FI), but the Epson as well as this is such a great feature to have for 3d IMHO. Should be interesting and I am already looking forward to September!
Edited by Toe - 1/11/13 at 5:30pm

Zombie, I'd love to post-firmware RS46 pics to compare to those you posted. I can't believe how soft the RS4810 looks in your pics. I watched a bit of the Avengers in 3D on my 4810 and it was nothing if not razor-sharp. Go figure...it makes me wonder if something was up with the 3D on the 4810 you sampled (although I realize that's highly unlikely).

Oh well, my 4810 is going to have to last me for a few years, so by the time I'm ready for an upgrade, we'll all have holographic glasses-free 3D projectors and will reflect on how quaint the old days were.

Hello how did you calibrate it, is it ISF Calibration or some basic settings can you please give some extra info

IIRC, the low brightness in 3D of the VW1000 is caused by long blanking times to reduce ghosting and it thus drops A LOT when going from 2D to 3D. The new HW50 has new technology that allows shorter blanking times without increasing ghosting and is significantly brighter in 3D even though less bright in 2D. I think this also applies to the competition, i.e. that they have less of a 3D brightness drop than the 1000.

can you post these same shots using the RS45 and Epson 5020?



thanks

For what reason? You can't gain much, other than color accuracy from these images posted here. And even that is a long shot between the camera taking the photo, editing software, and your own monitor. Everyone needs to take these shots with a grain of salt as they do not reveal much about picture quality.

SOLD! Just burned up a gift card and it is on the way. How is the audio? I remember being impressed with the audio on Baraka and I assume the audio is great here as well?

The audio is fantastic. Great 8 channel 24bit 96khz mix. There's actually a ~15 minute documentary on how the audio track was made included on the BD.