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Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 105

post #3121 of 4171
1/19/13 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post

Jvc actually put a proper cms adjustment in the 4810?! May indeed be worth it.
I guess it depends on what your definition of "proper CMS" is. But it worked for me.
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post #3122 of 4171
1/19/13 at 8:24pm
A color management system that gets it spot on to Rec 709?
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post #3123 of 4171
1/19/13 at 10:55pm
I can not find a dealer of Xpand or Monster Vision glasses over here - Is it possible to make the Optoma RF emitter and glasses work with an X30??? Paying 600$+ for 2 RF glasses and emitter is rather painful... :-(1.gif
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post #3124 of 4171
1/20/13 at 7:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billsmith45 View Post

I can not find a dealer of Xpand or Monster Vision glasses over here - Is it possible to make the Optoma RF emitter and glasses work with an X30??? Paying 600$+ for 2 RF glasses and emitter is rather painful... :-(1.gif

The Optoma RF emitter is the same as the MV3D, both are made by the same company. As long as you have the 3 pin connector to plug into the JVC and provide the transmitter power via a micro-USB connector, it will work fine.
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post #3125 of 4171
1/20/13 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post

A color management system that gets it spot on to Rec 709?
I guess it depends on what your definition of "spot on" is. To a dE of less than 3? That the JVC's CMS will do.
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post #3126 of 4171
1/21/13 at 1:41am
This thing still looks so attractive http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en/displays/projectors/PDF/brochure_8000D.pdf
Zombie, do you still have it? I think there is a way (a twisted one, but nevertheless) to mount it on your shelf to make it an eye-level: use maximum lens shift and angle it towards the floor to make it project on the screen. Use keystone correction to compensate...
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post #3127 of 4171
1/21/13 at 7:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post

A color management system that gets it spot on to Rec 709?

A CMS can only be used to produce the limits of the spectrum the projector can produce. The projector must be designed (filters chosen to produce) the correct points or beyond. A CMS allows the projector to be adjusted to produce the correct points if the project is designed to produce them . Its not a design limitation of a CMS if the projector is not designed to achieve Rec 709. There are other reasons why the CMS in the JVC is not as good as others but the inability of the projector to meet fully Rec 709 is not one of them. That said, to me it is really no big deal because the JVC comes close enough not to have noticeable color errors in real life viewing.
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post #3128 of 4171
1/21/13 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

This thing still looks so attractive http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en/displays/projectors/PDF/brochure_8000D.pdf
Zombie, do you still have it? I think there is a way (a twisted one, but nevertheless) to mount it on your shelf to make it an eye-level: use maximum lens shift and angle it towards the floor to make it project on the screen. Use keystone correction to compensate...


Sounds like a plan. Love the part about using keystone adjustment. What's the purpose of the comparision once you use maximum lens shift and keystone adjustment?.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/21/13 at 11:23am
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post #3129 of 4171
1/21/13 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

I guess it depends on what your definition of "spot on" is. To a dE of less than 3? That the JVC's CMS will do.

Keep in mind too that "spot on" on the outside 6 points (3 primary, 3 secondary) doesn't mean that the other millions of points within the gamut are accurate (the area between the outside most saturated points and the center point). For years we've been patting ourselves on the back thinking that getting the outsides correct along with the greyscale meant a perfectly calibrated display when in fact many displays showed completely non-linear respones in the areas between the outside and center.

Kal
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post #3130 of 4171
1/21/13 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Sounds like a plan. Love the part about using keystone adjustment. What;s the purpose of the comparision once you use maximum lens shift and keystone adjustment?.

It'd probably be better to just make a temporary stand if he wants to compare the projector. That way you can stay close to the sweet spot on the lens and avoid keystone.
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post #3131 of 4171
1/21/13 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Keep in mind too that "spot on" on the outside 6 points (3 primary, 3 secondary) doesn't mean that the other millions of points within the gamut are accurate (the area between the outside most saturated points and the center point). For years we've been patting ourselves on the back thinking that getting the outsides correct along with the greyscale meant a perfectly calibrated display when in fact many displays showed completely non-linear respones in the areas between the outside and center.

Kal
Understood. But short of buying a Lumagen (or similar), the JVC's internal CMS seems to satisfy plissken99's "demands." smile.gif
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post #3132 of 4171
1/21/13 at 10:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Keep in mind too that "spot on" on the outside 6 points (3 primary, 3 secondary) doesn't mean that the other millions of points within the gamut are accurate (the area between the outside most saturated points and the center point). For years we've been patting ourselves on the back thinking that getting the outsides correct along with the greyscale meant a perfectly calibrated display when in fact many displays showed completely non-linear respones in the areas between the outside and center.

Kal

I think most would be surprised if they saw saturation tracking errors under 100%. Some projectors are off by quite a bit while 100% looks golden.
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post #3133 of 4171
1/21/13 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

This thing still looks so attractive http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en/displays/projectors/PDF/brochure_8000D.pdf
Zombie, do you still have it? I think there is a way (a twisted one, but nevertheless) to mount it on your shelf to make it an eye-level: use maximum lens shift and angle it towards the floor to make it project on the screen. Use keystone correction to compensate...

I had it in the best possible spot for my setup which was a low mount near the bottom of the screen. My screen is too large (very close to ceiling) so I couldn't go above.

I mentioned this earlier, but there was a difference in the PQ when switching between 4x and 6x mode in 2D. In 6x, the image look a little flatter, possibly due to a drop in brightness. I was 3 feet closer than most of the other projectors (14 feet vs. 17) and the projected image was 133" vs. 142", so it was difficult to fairly compare the overall 2D and 3D lumen output. I generally left the 2nd iris open since it wasn't bright enough for my preferences.

I did like the high speed 3D glasses.

it's a nice projector if the mounting requirements can be made to work. However, I think most folks have become spoiled by the wide range of mounting locations possible with the JVC, Sony, Epson and BQ W7000. The W7000 is proof that a 3D DLP can have a wide range of lens shift, so I'll be looking forward to see if any other DLP manufacturer comes up with a similar design and higher end specs.

The ideal setup would have been shoe-horning the 8000 DLP engine into the HC9000 chassis.
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post #3134 of 4171
1/21/13 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I think most would be surprised if they saw saturation tracking errors under 100%. Some projectors are off by quite a bit while 100% looks golden.

Which is why it's probably a good idea to calibrate at 75% and let the 100% fall outside the dE target as 75% is more in line with typical content.
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post #3135 of 4171
1/21/13 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I had it in the best possible spot for my setup which was a low mount near the bottom of the screen.
I'll take your word for it.
*sigh*
But did you try dynamic iris? How was it? Mitsubishi promised 330000:1 contrast ratio!eek.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The ideal setup would have been shoe-horning the 8000 DLP engine into the HC9000 chassis.
I recently saw HC9000 against JVC X-30. I liked HC9000 much more. Cleaner image, brighter colors, smoother motion. Totally comparable contrast. I can't say anything about sharpness though.
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post #3136 of 4171
1/21/13 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post


I recently saw HC9000 against JVC X-30. I liked HC9000 much more. Cleaner image, brighter colors, smoother motion. Totally comparable contrast. I can't say anything about sharpness though.

If the X30 was in Standard colour space mode then the colours would have been pretty close to rec709 anyway, so it might just be that you prefer oversaturated colours. No issue with this, but bare in mind that if you ever have a calibration done it will tend towards the colours you (should) have seen on the X30. Of course if the greyscale was off it will effect the colours too. I've no idea what the HC9000 colour gamut is like or whether it can be corrected (if it has a CMS?).
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post #3137 of 4171
1/21/13 at 11:24am
Thread Starter 
I was doing everything possible to avoid keystone which caused too many artifacts even with minor use.

I spent hours testing the various iris settings with my favorite scenes which includes a number of dark sci-fi clips. None of the settings were as convincing as the Epson 5020 or Sony HW50 and definitely not the JVC @ -11. In other words, I could get away without masks on 2:35:1 sci-fi with the other projectors, but would prefer masks with the 8000.

There's many good qualities to the DLP's (they are my top pick for 3D performance), but I haven't seen one yet in this price range that could be my main 2D projector since I prefer the darkest black floor possible.
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post #3138 of 4171
1/21/13 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

If the X30 was in Standard colour space mode then the colours would have been pretty close to rec709 anyway, so it might just be that you prefer oversaturated colours. No issue with this, but bare in mind that if you ever have a calibration done it will tend towards the colours you (should) have seen on the X30. Of course if the greyscale was off it will effect the colours too. I've no idea what the HC9000 colour gamut is like or whether it can be corrected (if it has a CMS?).
No, I prefer viewing my displays calibrated.

I am pretty much sure that what my eyes saw is supported by this.

JVC X30 spectral power distribution and color separation graph:



Mitsubishi HC9000D spectral power distribution and color separation graph:



HC9000D's CMS seems to be broken. But it's a small issue for HTPC users (or ones with the excessive money to buy external color processor).

P.S. I didn't mean that JVC's color is worse because it has less wide gamut. Both can extend beyond Rec.709. It's just how both projectors were set up that made JVC look considerably worse. Mitsu had much smoother picture.
P.P.S. For info Mitsubishi also has less input lag - 42 ms without activating frame interpolation, 98 ms with it. So, unlike JVC, it's quite usable for gaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I spent hours testing the various iris settings with my favorite scenes which includes a number of dark sci-fi clips. None of the settings were as convincing as the Epson 5020 or Sony HW50 and definitely not the JVC @ -11. In other words, I could get away without masks on 2:35:1 sci-fi with the other projectors, but would prefer masks with the 8000.

There's many good qualities to the DLP's (they are my top pick for 3D performance), but I haven't seen one yet in this price range that could be my main 2D projector since I prefer the darkest black floor possible.
Thanks a lot. Yeah, I feel your pain. I'm stuck with the choice of Mitsubishi HC5 vs. Sharp XV-Z17000 (two best values ATM, IMO). Despite weak black levels I really like the DLP look. Also, I want to experience that ultimate crosstalk-free experience.
You might try Sharp XV-Z30000 though, here it says the dynamic iris is actually usable:
Quote:
I did all of my viewing with Sharp’s auto iris (Iris2) engaged. Automatic (dynamic) irises can dramatically improve the peak (full-on/full-off or sequential) contrast ratio, but they don’t always do so without side effects, such as obvious pumping of the image brightness as the iris opens and closes. However, the XV-Z30000’s auto iris (Iris2) worked beautifully. The only times I thought I caught a hint of it operating turned out to be in the source material itself.

Edited by Elix - 1/21/13 at 12:36pm
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post #3139 of 4171
1/21/13 at 3:34pm
I guess if you like 3D, gaming and the DLP 'punch' then it's not a hard decision, unless you also want the lowest black level as Zombie and I both do. I can't watch single chip DLP myself due to headaches and rainbows, which is a shame as I like certain qualities that DLPs have. Not sure what those 2D graphs show apart from the Mits looks even more oversaturated unless I'm mistaken. The spectral power distribution is interesting, but provided the internal filters and a suitable colour space option can provide a rec 709 gamut (or very near too) then it's more of academic interest.
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post #3140 of 4171
1/21/13 at 9:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Which is why it's probably a good idea to calibrate at 75% and let the 100% fall outside the dE target as 75% is more in line with typical content.

This is what I was doing before using the mini 3D. If you recall I was getting some erratic before/after readings. After I blacked out my ceiling, it seems much better now. I think I was getting reflections from the ceiling and HP screen.

The gamma setting topic always bring up various arguments. This may be wrong, but I like playing around with the darkness settings on the RS55 which makes minor changes at just the lower IRE. I'll pick a favorite dark sci-fi scene like the beginning of underworld evolution, tweak the setting to my liking and then leave it there for the rest of the movie.

I think this is a great feature they included in these models since it's easy to access in the menu and I can make quick changes depending on the content.
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post #3141 of 4171
1/22/13 at 12:42am
I like the feature, but I also think it might help if you could see the picture while adjusting it rather than the two black squares.
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post #3142 of 4171
1/22/13 at 5:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I like the feature, but I also think it might help if you could see the picture while adjusting it rather than the two black squares.

Does the X35 have the Dark Level control? The 40/45/X3/X30 does not have this, but they do have the Black Level control which is not the same thing. What you are describing sounds like the Black Level control.
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post #3143 of 4171
1/22/13 at 6:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I like the feature, but I also think it might help if you could see the picture while adjusting it rather than the two black squares.

I think we're confusing the different settings. The dark level controls i'm referring to allow the minor gamma changes to be made while watching live content.

I also like changing the 'film tone' setting as well. I can tweak these 2 settings in under a minute depending on the movie, but I generally leave the dark setting @ +4 which brings out some nice shadow detail without messing with the gamma settings.


jvc-darkness.jpg
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post #3144 of 4171
1/22/13 at 10:25am
I've got the X35, it only has the black level adjustment not the white one. When you go into the menu it brings up two black boxes. According to the manual you are supposed to raise it to the point where the right hand box is just visible IIRC. You can't see video while doing this, so I have to press OK then go out of the menu to see the test pattern or film I'm watching.
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post #3145 of 4171
1/22/13 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I've got the X35, it only has the black level adjustment not the white one. When you go into the menu it brings up two black boxes. According to the manual you are supposed to raise it to the point where the right hand box is just visible IIRC. You can't see video while doing this, so I have to press OK then go out of the menu to see the test pattern or film I'm watching.
Some JVCs have a Black Level adjustment. I am not sure how that differs from Brightness though. When I experimented with this back when I had the RS50 they both did the same thing. I was hopeful that black level was a fine adjust to Brightness but that is not the case (at least it wasn't on the RS50). I did send an email to JVC USA Support at that time asking for clarification of how they differ but it was ignored (unanswered).

The Dark Level control is what Zombie's post above your is describing. It works fine and only affects gamma in the portion of the curves that are shown. On this years models one can adjust RGB as well as W.
Edited by Geof - 1/22/13 at 10:46am
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post #3146 of 4171
1/22/13 at 11:37am
I have a couple of questions relative to this thread.

One--is there somewhere in this thread a "Cliff Notes" for the various projectors tested? I have read the whole thread and when trying to go back and find specific tests on the various projectors tested it is difficult to find anything other than the two on the first page.

Two-How bad is the motion blur with the JVC tested and how does the 2D lumens and PQ compare to the Sony and Epson?

Thanks a ton Zombie...you are a God!

My search for the correct pj for my application continues....
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post #3147 of 4171
1/22/13 at 11:38am
Thanks Geoff. I'll make sure mine is set to 0 then (it might be at +1 at the moment as it's a global setting I don't want it raising the black level).Though I'm sure I checked the black level using a 0% pattern and comparing it to 'hide' setting. redface.gif

I've just been busy sorting out buying some PMC speakers that I've been after for a long time (Wafer 1 on wall to use as side surrounds), so I'm slightly distracted at the prospect of getting these: I sold my old HD350 last week so the money just got transfered to the speakers. biggrin.gif
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post #3148 of 4171
1/22/13 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Some JVCs have a Black Level adjustment. I am not sure how that differs from Brightness though. When I experimented with this back when I had the RS50 they both did the same thing. I was hopeful that black level was a fine adjust to Brightness but that is not the case (at least it wasn't on the RS50). I did send an email to JVC USA Support at that time asking for clarification of how they differ but it was ignored (unanswered).

The Dark Level control is what Zombie's post above your is describing. It works fine and only affects gamma in the portion of the curves that are shown. On this years models one can adjust RGB as well as W.

Hi Geof,

When I tested this with the rs50, the black level controls was indeed the same as brightness, but with more granularity. So if for example 1 notch in brightness raises your black level and 1 notch in the other direction makes level 17 invisible, using the dark level control can help you finding the right compromise. Haven't had to try it on the rs45.
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post #3149 of 4171
1/22/13 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I think we're confusing the different settings. The dark level controls i'm referring to allow the minor gamma changes to be made while watching live content.

I also like changing the 'film tone' setting as well. I can tweak these 2 settings in under a minute depending on the movie, but I generally leave the dark setting @ +4 which brings out some nice shadow detail without messing with the gamma settings.
This is a great control. It got my low-end gamma exactly where I wanted it without having to muck around with custom gamma curves (that can be a bear to properly adjust on the JVCs).
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post #3150 of 4171
1/22/13 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Some JVCs have a Black Level adjustment. I am not sure how that differs from Brightness though. When I experimented with this back when I had the RS50 they both did the same thing. I was hopeful that black level was a fine adjust to Brightness but that is not the case (at least it wasn't on the RS50). I did send an email to JVC USA Support at that time asking for clarification of how they differ but it was ignored (unanswered).

The Dark Level control is what Zombie's post above your is describing. It works fine and only affects gamma in the portion of the curves that are shown. On this years models one can adjust RGB as well as W.

I found that if I raise brightness at all from 0 (for standard HDMI) that the black floor raises which seems to be the norm with the JVCs, but if I have the black level control at +1, I cant see any difference in my black floor either through the AVS709 test pattern for brightness or by doing the hide trick. Should we still leave this at 0?

I wish the 45/X35 had the Dark Level control as this sounds like a nice feature to have for quick and easy gamma tweaks on the low end.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout 2012-2013