Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 108

I've given up hope on any NON-DLP for 3D to be honest, even my friend's Epson 5010 is starting to ghost worse than when he had a new lamp (saw it 2 days ago), 1200 hours on his lamp now I think. Between 500 to 1000 hours his ghosting increased a lot, it's still not that bad (nowhere near the JVC's), but it's substantial enough to be distracting on some scenes after being used to zero ghosting on the Benq.

The Benq blacks surely doesn't satisfy all but the pickiest, I still think even the JVC's could do a lot better black levels. It depends how bright someone watches it as well though I suppose, I like to watch bright PJ's with dark blacks and those two kind of contradict. The JVC needs an IRIS IMHO to re-gain a substantial lead over the Sony hw50.

There are some movies where the JVC's just sink other projectors, the Harry Potter movies are still where I saw it the most (although I will probably never watch another Harry Potter movie, so burned out). The JVC tore these movies up, and I've watched some of these on other PJ's and it looked bad, when I saw HP movies at the theater it was horrible compared to the JVC at home.

I agree it's partly bad IRIS programming, but with a good IRIS you can do 5x 6000 = 30,000:1, that is about the same as a low-end JVC. It's just bad IRIS code on most of these. I've done several IRIS tests and many IRIS's just do not work correctly. I guess they don't budget that much development money to the IRIS. Of they really want to make IRIS's better, they need to use read-ahead buffers, of course that won't work in gaming, but it could work for bluray watching, although it would cause some side effects as the projector would need to pre-cache a few seconds worth of video.
Edited by coderguy - 1/24/13 at 1:31am

Perhaps this may be useful for some
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/sony-vpl-hw50es.shtml

Awesome review as always.

What are you asking for? I assume xyY. But which ones, after application of the CMSs on the 4810 and 55. The 46 OTB/ Please be more specific.

Yes, I have it set to -7 for that reason (and because I'm using HDMI Enhanced in the JVC). Raising the black floor decreases contrast but I have a JVC because I like high contrast so therein lies the rub - and the reason I won't raise the black floor.

I briefly tried measuring 0% black (but not with the meter facing the projector with the diffuser in place) but changing the iris changes the CR so I'm not sure it's valid to be diddling the iris to make measurements.

---

On another note I looked and could not find the "Black Level" control on my RS4810.

Kelvin

If you wanted to test your ide, just lower the contrast control, not the brightness control - I dont know if it will lower the ghosting on the JVC, maybe Zombie have tryed ?


dj
Edited by d.j. - 1/24/13 at 8:49am

Yes. On RS4810, we have 'dark/bright level' for RGB & White. On RS46, it has 'Black Level' control.

My RS55 had both....

If the Black level control is a fine adjust for Brightness then it would be nice to have....

I've looked at the owners manuals for this years JVC's and discovered this:

RS48, RS56, RS66 all have an Environment Setting

RS46 has a Black Level Setting

Some of this sounds like gobblie gook to me (This adjustment reduces the black side, and has a subtle influence from the black (dark) side to the white (bright) side) but I gather that JVC intends that the Environment setting is an upscale version of the Black Level setting. So I'm confused.....I've set the Environment settings but I didn't notice any difference at the time. I guess I'll have to play [ahem, experiment] with this some more. One question that immediately jumps into my head is what effect does screen size/viewing distance have [if any] on eshift2 (and/or 3D)???
Edited by Geof - 1/24/13 at 6:28am

That is really the case, JVC should have written some comments on the correlation in the manual.

That's what I assumed he was asking for, the X models equivalence with the RS models, but I might have been wrong.

Thanks!

(yes, I meant the 56...)

As it's already been mentioned that it has been tried then it's a moot point, but it seems that you've missed my point:

My suggestion to raise the black level slightly to reduce the contrast ratio since a small increase in black level can reduce the overall contrast ratio. My idea was that perhaps there is some issue with the speed of the panels and therefore if not allowing them to go as fully into black as using the correct brightness setting, then perhaps it might improve crosstalk. Lowering the contrast control would have a similar effect by limiting peak white, so just two ways of achieving the same thing, except my way doesn't reduce the peak light output which seems to be more in keeping with trying to keep 3D as bright as possible. The cheaper 3D options some are buying for 3D only use along with a JVC for 2D have much less contrast than the JVC, so my idea was based on 'throwing away' some of that contrast. If for example these DLP models have 5,000:1 contrast, then we could raise the brightness control quite a few clicks before even an X35 was only producing that level of contrast. If it saved buying a second projector then I figured it might be worthwhile, but as I said I can't test this since I don't have any 3D glasses or emitter,it was just an idea that I though might be worth trying, though it seems not.

I know that raising the brightness control won't increase the peak white output, which is the mistake many new projector owners make when fiddling with the controls.

BTW There's an 'L' in my name.

Sorry Kelvin


dj

No worries .

Zombie,

Any suggestions on alternative Sony glasses? I really like the picture through the glasses on the Sonys from what I've seen so far. I think the tint seems about right. However, I wear prescription lenses, and they aren't very comfortable to wear over my existing glasses for extended periods.

Thanks

I've been pretty quiet on this this thread since I'm living in the last model year with my HW30. FWIW, I think the HW30 is a great projector and a year later (with 750 hours or so) I wouldn't have changed my decision. It's excellent in every way except for lens uniformity. The good news is I've only ever seen it with test patterns, not in real content.

Its been about a year since I got my HW30 and I wanted to revisit the lens uniformity. I couldn't find exactly the right test patterns, so I ended up creating my own. I wanted to be able to focus with a single color (Green) and then add Red and/or Blue. The goal was to check for focus independent of convergence. If you are only displaying Green and you are see oddities in some areas of the screen while the image is sharp in others, that's a focus issue. Also, if green is sharp then, with no focus changes, blue and red should individually be sharp. I would argue that if you cannot get R/G/B focused tightly then convergence is the least of your problems.

Having said all that...

I'm interested in how the HW50 model's lens behaves. If someone with an HW50 has a few moments and a computer hooked up, please try out my simple convergence page. It's at

http://www.aaarpinball.com/Miscellaneous/p1080.htm

It's a very simply HTML5/JavaScript page with 2 patterns:

1) Single pixels spaced every 5 pixels
2) "Plus" signs (10 pixels high / 10 pixels wide)

Each of these two patterns comes in 6 variations: Red only, Green only, Blue only, Red+Green, Green+Blue, Red+Green+Blue (aka White)

There are 12 buttons on the top to pick the appropriate pattern/color.

If you want to give your PJ a focus workout, do the single pixel green test and see if that dot is clear all over the screen.

I'd love to hear how the HW50 handles this... and for that matter, I'd be interested to hear about any of the other PJs.

Thanks

The HW50ES uses the same lens as the HW30ES. This has been confirmed by Mark Haflich who knows a lot of people on the inside and obviously someone at Sony. There is already a dedicated thread for nonuniformity issues with the HW50ES here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436740/sony-vpl-hw50es-focus-nonuniformity/0_50

You'll probably have better luck posting this info there to get more people to give you results.

This is an awesome set of patterns. Is there anyway you could just post them as indivdual jpeg so they could be displayed from a thumb drive or similar. My assumption is I need to have a PC or something hooked up to display these. I'm lost a bit here.

It looks really cool. Thanks for sharing this.

I've read this whole thread (awesome and very helpful btw) and concluded that for my specific scenario if the HW50 had lens memory I'd have already ordered one. So I'm thinking HW50 w/ lumagen might do the trick. Any comments on how the 16:9 looked scaled sown?

16:9 looks OK scaled down for menus and trailers. I used to do this when I first sold my AE3000 (which had lens memory) and got my HD350. I would still zoom back for full res 16:9 films though. I've since got a lens so I effectively downscale 16:9 menus and trailers with the lens in place, but I always move it out of the way to watch a whole 16:9 film. Of course the lens memory on my X35 helps anyway since 1.85:1 non lens viewing requires a small amount of zooming.

However, as I discovered with the AE3000 and it's lens memory: It's the picture that you enjoy after the adjustments that is important, so don't get too hung up on how you achieve CIH, just which one gives the best picture once you are viewing. (HINT: It wasn't the AE3000 ).

Regarding the black crush issue on JVCs that SOWK posted about, I did some experiements last night and replied to his PM as below. I thought it might be useful to post it in here as well for information. My room currently is completely dark when viewing films, but the walls are light grey and the ceiling is white until I can add my black velvet screen surround. This might make seeing differences at very low levels harder to see, but I've done what I could to help see the flashing bars on the AVS HD709 basic pattern for brightness. I tried various methods tomake the 17 bar more visible, while then checking against the hide function and a 0% test pattern to see if the black floor was raised.

These tests were done using my JVC X35 and a Lumagen Mini3D, Chromapure and an i1 display Pro enhanced.

So in conclusion there is only one adjustment that allowed me to make the 17 bar more visible and not increase the black floor and this was using the Lumagen at 1%. Last night's viewing (Anonymous on BluRay and a TV series called Utopia on Channel 4 HD from a1080i PVR source) didn't show any issues with noise in dark areas that I noticed, so I plan to make setting 1% in the Lumagen my standard procedure from now on.

Those without the luxury of a Lumagen might be able to adjust the black level control slightly to +1 or possibly +2 to make the 18 bar more visible, but would need to check using the hide function and a 0% pattern to make sure that this doesn't increase the black floor. I'm not convinced it is possible to make the 17 bar visible without raising the black floor without external processing on a JVC (at least on my X35).

NOTE: All these tests were done with the HDMI setting at Superwhite not standard as I put in my PM quoted. I might try a test tonight using Enhanced to see if I can make 17 visible without raising the black floor as some others have said they use Enhanced for this reason.
Edited by Kelvin1965S - 1/26/13 at 2:31am

I will also be testing a lumagen Mini 3D today. I will need to see if there is any negative side effects on live material with a raised 1% gamma.

Kelvin, I always use Enhanced HDMI. Also, Thank You for taking the time to do this. I hope you can address your room as well soon to kill off some reflections.

I completely forgot about trying enhanced last night, so I'm keen to see if it makes any difference later today.

I'm itching to get my room improved since I already know how much better it could look even with some cheap black sheeting hung in a temporary 'tent'. I'm sure black velvet will be even better. However, I'm working on two bedrooms at the moment so until these have reached a point where I can't do anymore without outside help, then I can't start the living room.

Yes. I also always use HDMI enhanced. Never tried Super white.
Let me try adjust 1.0-1.3% with Lumagen mini.

Nice report Kelvin. I'm not surprised by your brightness and black level findings. I think we're all so accustomed to thinking that the brightness pattern is the way to set brightness/black level that it's easy to overlook that it may also be raising the black floor (level 16). What we need to is gain separation between level 16 and level 17, not raise both....and fiddling with gamma is the only way to achieve that. I would not have expected that changing gamma at 1/2% would raise the black floor but in hindsight that sort of makes sense. I've always thought that the brightness setting granularity would not allow us to place it at exactly 0% gamma.....I think that is why there may be difference in black crush between HDMI Standard and HDMI Enhanced. However, raising 1% gamma sounds like a viable solution and I'll try that next time I calibrate.

Looking forward to more info from SOWK and Freebits........perhaps though we should take this discussion to the RS4810 thread....