AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout 2012-2013
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 109

post #3241 of 4168
Thanks Geoff. I may have to eat my words if I find Enhanced allows 17 to be seen without raising the black floor. redface.gif

On a side note: My lux reading has barely dropped at all since it was measuring 100 Lux last night after 102 hours use compared to 102-3 (which is the highest I've measured between 0 and 102 hours). I then wondered if maybe the red had dropped in the lamp, but checking the 100% white balance last night it was pretty much still good (less than 3dE out). I did tweak 100% a little bit (using the JVC RGB gains) prior to the gamma experiments, but I'll run a full autocalibration in a week or two's time since the lamp seems nicely stable now.

These lamps certainly seem much better than the old models from my experience.
post #3242 of 4168
Good to hear about the lamp!!

I don't think word eating is required....wink.gif because I do think there is some unit to unit variation. Manni tried Enhanced at one point and found it didn't help much but it did result in a small improvement for me.

I looked at my hours last evening and wow...it's close to 150.... eek.gif I do not have time at the moment to calibrate but a quick look at the ramps shows it's not bad but it could use some grayscale adjustments at lower levels (looks pretty neutral above 50%, less so below that).
post #3243 of 4168
Mine was 145 lux measuring 100IRE with aperture 0 & lamp time 25h.
Edited by freebits - 1/26/13 at 7:08am
post #3244 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I then moved the point to 1% and tried 1.1, 1.2 & 1.3 as output.

@Kelvin, what does the output mean? Is it Luma? for IRE 1%, you set it 1.0/1.1/1.2?
post #3245 of 4168
Finnally, with all the good talk about the High Power, I decide to go with a dual screen setup I will buy a High Power 2.35:1 smile.gif

I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details
post #3246 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Finnally, with all the good talk about the High Power, I decide to go with a dual screen setup I will buy a High Power 2.35:1 smile.gif

I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details

Weren't you satisfied with black level of HW50 or uniformity?
post #3247 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Finnally, with all the good talk about the High Power, I decide to go with a dual screen setup I will buy a High Power 2.35:1 smile.gif

I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details

Weren't you satisfied with black level of HW50 or uniformity?

The uniformy is good for a projector is this price range... But compare to a better lens like the VW95 its not the same thing... But the RC really help to give a super sharp image...
post #3248 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

It looks really cool. Thanks for sharing this.

Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

that is a cool pattern test, thanks for posting!

Thanks again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjsbuyer View Post

This is an awesome set of patterns. Is there anyway you could just post them as indivdual jpeg so they could be displayed from a thumb drive or similar. My assumption is I need to have a PC or something hooked up to display these. I'm lost a bit here.

Thanks and... the patterns are generated on the fly by the JavaScript code. It should be fairly trivial to view them on your projector as long as you have a computer connected to the internet. Connect computer, open modern brower, go to the link... As of now, I'm not planning to convert them to jPG (or PNG?).

Anyone find anything interesting with their favorite "this years model" projector using these?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjsbuyer[quote name= 
... please try out my simple convergence page. It's at

http://www.aaarpinball.com/Miscellaneous/p1080.htm

It's a very simply HTML5/JavaScript page with 2 patterns:

1) Single pixels spaced every 5 pixels
2) "Plus" signs (10 pixels high / 10 pixels wide)

Each of these two patterns comes in 6 variations: Red only, Green only, Blue only, Red+Green, Green+Blue, Red+Green+Blue (aka White)

There are 12 buttons on the top to pick the appropriate pattern/color.

If you want to give your PJ a focus workout, do the single pixel green test and see if that dot is clear all over the screen.
post #3249 of 4168
anyone try a 5020 + darbee ?
does it make the pic look sharper?
post #3250 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Finnally, with all the good talk about the High Power, I decide to go with a dual screen setup I will buy a High Power 2.35:1 smile.gif

I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details

Just a thought (and perhaps you've already considered it) but wouldn't waiting for the VW95 rev2 be a better (financially as well as technologically speaking) option? I guess if you've already decided to go to 2 screens then you don't want to hassle with the manual zoom of the HW50? I suppose it also depends on what you can get for your HW50 as well as pay for the HW95 vs buying it's replacement directly (which still isn't confirmed). Anyway, just some food for thought.
post #3251 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Finnally, with all the good talk about the High Power, I decide to go with a dual screen setup I will buy a High Power 2.35:1 smile.gif

I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details

Just a thought (and perhaps you've already considered it) but wouldn't waiting for the VW95 rev2 be a better (financially as well as technologically speaking) option? I guess if you've already decided to go to 2 screens then you don't want to hassle with the manual zoom of the HW50? I suppose it also depends on what you can get for your HW50 as well as pay for the HW95 vs buying it's replacement directly (which still isn't confirmed). Anyway, just some food for thought.

My plan is to buy the 95 replacement as soon as available but would like to install my new screen this month so... Another option I was considering is a anamorphic lens for my HW50, but I know nothing about lens and really dont know what to buy and how to install that. Also, can a lens work with a 2 screens setup? I think the screen will need to be perfecly align to avoid any zoom/shift change...
post #3252 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

...I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details

Wow that was a short honeymoon! Is the lens the biggest change you want from the VW95 or is the the better contrast/black levels?

My HW50 looks sharper than my RS45 (which doesn't have perfect convergence) but in most things viewed the HW50 looks very sharp to my eyes. I've only seen one movie thus far that the RC needs turned down to minimum and that is Monsters Inc. The main character Sully is mostly hair and the RC makes this stand out but if RC is turned up just a little bit I can see some stairstepping from my seating distance (which is very close).

I've never seen the VW95 but I could see wanting the better contrast/black levels (most specifically in dark scenes). I almost went with a VW95 but AVS didn't have any more B stocks so this made my decision easy. At the same time I was concerned about the brightness of the VW95 which was less than my RS45 which was very dim in 3D even with my HP screen IMO. For me no matter which direction I took something would bother me. Life's tough for the picky I suppose. The RS45 had poor 3D to say the least and at the time the 2D PQ looked flawless but now the picture doesn't look as sharp and motion looks poor (I use FI) after owning the HW50. I'm sure the VW95 would look dim to my eyes in 3D and the HW50 could improve with black levels. If only there was only one projector that combined the best of these 3 projectors at an affordable price!
post #3253 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

...I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details

Wow that was a short honeymoon! Is the lens the biggest change you want from the VW95 or is the the better contrast/black levels?

My HW50 looks sharper than my RS45 (which doesn't have perfect convergence) but in most things viewed the HW50 looks very sharp to my eyes. I've only seen one movie thus far that the RC needs turned down to minimum and that is Monsters Inc. The main character Sully is mostly hair and the RC makes this stand out but if RC is turned up just a little bit I can see some stairstepping from my seating distance (which is very close).

I've never seen the VW95 but I could see wanting the better contrast/black levels (most specifically in dark scenes). I almost went with a VW95 but AVS didn't have any more B stocks so this made my decision easy. At the same time I was concerned about the brightness of the VW95 which was less than my RS45 which was very dim in 3D even with my HP screen IMO. For me no matter which direction I took something would bother me. Life's tough for the picky I suppose. The RS45 had poor 3D to say the least and at the time the 2D PQ looked flawless but now the picture doesn't look as sharp and motion looks poor (I use FI) after owning the HW50. I'm sure the VW95 would look dim to my eyes in 3D and the HW50 could improve with black levels. If only there was only one projector that combined the best of these 3 projectors at an affordable price!

The HW50 is way brighter in 3D than the 95. Also, to be honest, I dont know if I will be able to see a real difference in lens sharpness between the 2 sit 10 feet from my screen... The main reason is I want the lens memory. Since I dont watch a lot of 3D (almost never) I dont mind go with the 95.
post #3254 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

@Kelvin, what does the output mean? Is it Luma? for IRE 1%, you set it 1.0/1.1/1.2?

Yes, I should have put Luma setting, but I was trying to keep it clear to understand for the non Lumagen owners. I changed greyscale point 1 (or is it 2?) from 5.0 to 1.0 and then changed the Luma to 1.1/1.2/1.3 to see how this effected the 17 flashing bar.

Also my 100 Lux reading is at -15 iris, minimum zoom which gives approx 100" diagonal for 16:9 content (non lens use on my 2.35:1 screen).
post #3255 of 4168
I had a quick try last night using Enhanced HDMI setting and I couldn't get the 17 bar flashing without making the 16 bar flash as well (or crush to 18) so it seems that on my example the only way I can get the 17 bar slightly visible is using the 1% in the Lumagen. I watched a couple of films last night and still didn't notice any side effects to using this 1% setting so I'm quite happy to continue this way. I think my findings at least show that there are tolerances between units (and different set ups/equipment) so each user will have to test for themselves what setting works best for them.
post #3256 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I had a quick try last night using Enhanced HDMI setting and I couldn't get the 17 bar flashing without making the 16 bar flash as well (or crush to 18) so it seems that on my example the only way I can get the 17 bar slightly visible is using the 1% in the Lumagen. I watched a couple of films last night and still didn't notice any side effects to using this 1% setting so I'm quite happy to continue this way. I think my findings at least show that there are tolerances between units (and different set ups/equipment) so each user will have to test for themselves what setting works best for them.

That means you calibrate grayscale like 0%, 1%, 10%, 15% ... 95%, 100%? If you measure with Chromapure, do you see straight line and 5% looks good?
post #3257 of 4168
I didn't do any measurement last night, just a basic test to see if using HDMI enhanced and adjusting brightness, black level and gamma controls (all in the JVC) could be used to make 17 bar visible without raising the black level. I had already checked my greyscale and gamma on Friday night but using Superwhite (brightness at 0) and maintained a gamma that slightly lowers towards 0% (2.3 above 20% or so, dropping towards 2.2 lower down).
post #3258 of 4168
Thoses lucky enough to have a Lumagen.

For more shadow detail...

Move point 2 (in 21 point gamma) to 1% and increase output to around 2.

That's it. Set point 3 at 5% and continue on from there.
Edited by SOWK - 1/27/13 at 3:24am
post #3259 of 4168
Don't you see banding with it set that high? If you look at the 18 and 19 bars then I start to see vertical stripes down them on my X35 with 1% set above about 1.5?

Also, you could use the JVC 5% control but I didn't need to plus I don't know how much impact it has on surrounding % levels (one of the reasons I got the Lumagen in the first place was the flaky custom gamma in my HD350.
post #3260 of 4168
Yes I did, but it does not show in real world material.

0.5% does not chage much, so 1% was the better option.

If you feel you have enough shadow detail at luma output 1.5 leave it at that.

At 2 it pulls out a great deal. 1.7 or 1.8 would be perfect.
post #3261 of 4168
I found that using 0.5% and adjusting the Luma to 0.6 or above would raise the black floor anyway, which was why I moved to 1%. In a way it's a moot point for me since my room needs further improvement, but this will happen hopefully in a month or two, so no harm in preparing for it.

I haven't got myHD350 anymore, but I'm sure I went through this process and found that I could see the 17 bar without having to tweak the Lumagen (I've never moved the 5% control previously for sure). Perhaps it was just down to slight tolerances that it worked OK on the HD350 (and I had a temporary black 'tent' set up that helped reduce room reflections considerably.
post #3262 of 4168
If we talk about depth and popup effect @3d which one is better? Epson5020 or sonyhw50es?
post #3263 of 4168
I haven't seen an HW50, but one feature that really works for me on the 5020 is the depth controls/screen size settings and 3D brightness. You can adjust these to help control the 3D effect and crosstalk.
Many say you should only adjust the brightness setting, but I found playing with the screen size created a difference in the perception of 3D, something that DID NOT happen when I adjusted it on my JVC RS40.
I did however choose to leave it at factory default, as I found the 3D very good out of the box.

S A M33
post #3264 of 4168
Kelvin/SOWK, thanks for testing this and reporting in. I did just the 11 point gamma last time (which is what Tom suggested), but will do the 21 point and this tweak next week when I have to recal anyway for my 2.35 (I calibrated in high lamp last time which has a constant flicker so I am going to recal in low).

I did do a 21 point gamma on my first calibration (which I had to scrap and redo for other reasons) and noticed the 11 point was checked in the Lumagen menu after, not 21......any idea why? confused.gif
Edited by Toe - 1/27/13 at 9:11am
post #3265 of 4168
Thread Starter 
great discussion on the lumagen calibrations... keep it going.. !

a few weeks ago I mentioned wanting to directly compare the 3D performance of the Epson 5020 and BenQ W7000. I recently spent a few hours with a direct A/B setup watching various clips of my favorite 3D movies.

This is the first time I've had to chance to watch 3D with my newly blacked out room. My 142" 16:9 is very close to my ceiling (inches) and fills up an entire wall. It's remarkable how much more engaging the 3D is when there is nothing in sight around the frame to distract our attention.. this is a good and bad thing...

The bad is now PQ flaws are more obvious to my eyes. For example, I can now see the iris on the 5020. In 2D and 3D. My HP screen is bright so subtle changes in brightness are magnified times 2.8 and it becomes a bit distracting. I'll probably get used to it,but it's something I didn't really notice before the treatments.

After the change to the dark side, the RS55 is the 2D star of the show here, it looks outstanding @ -11.

Epson 5020 vs BenQ W7000

5020vsW7000.jpg


Both projectors have been discussed in detail regarding 3D, so these are just a few observations.

  • 3D glasses - For the Epson, I was using the factory RF glasses. I used the Optoma ZD201's for the BQ. These are 'technically' the best DLP link glasses i've used since both lens completely block out the red flash signal. This is important for maintaining perceived contrast in both eyes. The 2nd best in this regard is the TrueDepth 3D's. The BQ 2nd gen are amazingly comfortable with large lens but actually perform the worst in this regard. Too much red flash gets through the right eye which is distracting.

  • Brightness - The Epson is a bit bright than the BQ. I also have 375 hours on the BQ lamp and the Epson is less than 100, so it's hard to compare them directly in this regard without new lamps. The W7000 at dead center on the HP is bright enough for me. The Epson appears 1 notch brighter in the direct A/B.

  • Color - Both projectors can be calibrated behind the glasses and corrected for the tint color. Everyone who has a meter should do this. 3D is much more convincing when the color is right. Both looked very good behind the glasses, no real winner here.

  • Contrast - The #'s show there is a noticeable difference between the 5020 and the BQ W7000. You can easily see this in 2D if we're watching sci-fi. It's not as obvious in 3D mode with the glasses.One of my favorite movies to use in this comparison in Step Up 3D. It was shot in native 3D, very sharp overall and has great shadow detail in the various night club 'battle' scenes. The Epson has a bit of an advantage here, but it's not as clear-cut as the #'s would have you believe. Neither are the JVC in this regard.

  • Flicker - Epson is very good here. Better than the the Sony, and definitely better than the JVC. Overall a non issue for those sensitive to flicker. Those 480hz panels are doing some work here.

  • Crosstalk - My room is a now a math formula for seeing crosstalk. Big Screen + 2.8 High Power material + close seating + dark room = you will see crosstalk if it's there. At least I will since I have been spoiled by the 3D DLP which cannot display crosstalk under any circumstances. The Epson 5020 is very good in this regard for a non-DLP. About on par with the HW50 with 3D frame packed content. Just like seeing the iris now with the dark room, the crosstalk on the 5020 has become a bit more obvious.

  • FI in 3D - I watched a number of action scenes in the Avengers and a few other titles. The W7000 has excellent FI in low mode. It doesn't look like soap opera effect, just a very subtle smoothing of the image during fast paced scenes. The HW50 also has an excellent FI in 3D as well. IMO, This needs to be a requirement going forward. Even those who generally don't like FI in 2D are likely going to enjoy in 3D.




This was a personal comparison for me because I was considering going over the 5020 from the W7000. Mainly because of the RF glasses. We have visitors and keeping the DLP links glasses in sync with the younger folks can be a bit of a challenge. It's actually better now that my ceiling is dark, I think the room reflections were causing issues with the DLP link signal. Also, FI is now a requirement for me in 3D. I am expecting we'll see this added to the '5030' assuming they are going to follow up again next year.

My conclusion - I have been tainted by 3D DLP's crosstalk abilities. I saw this in 2010 when comparing the Acer 5360 vs the JVC RS40. How could it have been possible a $500 projector whooped on the expensive JVC? (flicker and crosstalk, obviously not contrast). I am staying with the BQ W7000 (for now) as it's a great 3D compliment to my JVC RS55.

it's interesting that 3D could have become DLP's 2nd lease on life. TI hasn't made changes in years. The mid-tier (5-10k) DLP market is pretty much gone. it's either 3K or below or 10K + now. This is a shame as I think there would be a market for an under 10K 3D DLP with a DC4 and decent brightness. Marantz and Samsung could have likely done this if they stayed in the market.
post #3266 of 4168
Great comparison Zombie, thanks again. I agree with you 100% about your FI comments in relation to 3d. This is a requirement for me from this point forward as far as 3d projectors go. I am not a fan of FI on 2d material other than animation, but in 3d I use it on everything (low mode for all non animated material) as I just dont see the soap opera effect either in low and it really just gives the motion a very natural and smooth sensation which is fantastic and makes the 3d that much more convincing. cool.gif

As far as the DI goes, I have still never seen one in my room that I did not find distracting (there are quite a few projectors I have not seen though to be fair) as I can see them pumping away and in the case of the 7000, I turned it off immediately as it was annoying.
Edited by Toe - 1/27/13 at 11:33am
post #3267 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

As far as the DI goes, I have still never seen one in my room that I did not find distracting (there are quite a few projectors I have not seen though to be fair) as I can seem them pumping away and in the case of the 7000, I turned it off immediately as it was annoying.

FWIW, I've never noticed the DI on the Sony HW30 (so I assume it's that good or better on the later/better models). I did notice it on a Panny before. It's easy to see why people say the DI on the Sonys are quite good...
post #3268 of 4168
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

FWIW, I've never noticed the DI on the Sony HW30 (so I assume it's that good or better on the later/better models). I did notice it on a Panny before. It's easy to see why people say the DI on the Sonys are quite good...

The Sony HW50 DI is better than the Epson 5020 if someone is sensitive to DI changes.
post #3269 of 4168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

FWIW, I've never noticed the DI on the Sony HW30 (so I assume it's that good or better on the later/better models). I did notice it on a Panny before. It's easy to see why people say the DI on the Sonys are quite good...

That is good to hear. I have not seen the newer Sonys or Epsons, but should be able to check them out at Cedia this year.
post #3270 of 4168
Jason,

I have an all black velvet movie room. You do notice more flaws in the picture at times, but only seeing the image on screen is amazing. A 1.0 screen is plenty bright even using my old RS2 clone with 1800 hours on the lamp. I now find theaters way too distracting with all the lights etc.. Also, if you' watch black and white films, nothings beats an all black room.smile.gif

Tom
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout 2012-2013