Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 111

Most 3d blu rays, the jvc does an acceptable job. Those animated and sbs content is what ghost the most. I still prefer a dlp tho. 3D is easier on my eyes than the jvcs

How can you make that claim? Have you measured your unit? If you have some sort of evidence that might suggest the 560 figure is somehow due to a bad lamp, please share it with us. If you dont have that evidence, all you are doing is throwing out subjective impressions/opinions which dont mean a whole lot since brightness is SO subjective as your setup perfectly illustrates (I would not personally be happy with that kind of light output compared to what I am getting in my setup in all due respect). There is NOTHING to suggest at this point that the 560 figure is due to a bad lamp (or a bad measurement as Zombie obviously knows what he is doing here and has taken more than one measurement just to assure he had it right) and the fact of the matter is that this is ~1/2 of what the Sony puts out in 3d, 1/2 of the 7000 and the Epson is ~2.5x brighter than the 4810 in 3d which is HUGE. Part of the reason ghosting and flicker are not sticking out is because you are watching very dim 3d in general considering the light output of the 4810 in conjunction with your large low gain screen. Throw that same projector on a 110" HP screen and I would bet both ghosting and flicker would be considerably more noticeable for those sensitive to these issues.

From the shots Zombie has posted, it is obvious that JVC has traded light/contrast/detail for improved ghosting this year. If you have objective evidence that shows otherwise, I am sure we would all love to see it.

How about this shot of the JVC vs the Sony that was just recently posted from another review that clearly shows a significant brightness difference between the 2 machines and FULLY supports the Zombie ~560 lumens findings............. was this projector defective as well? Was this also a bad measurement?
Edited by Toe - 1/29/13 at 3:41pm

I'm not buying the recent comments on the JVCs unless some of the members who have been on this forum long enough post the same. There's too many on this forum that try to sway people one way or the other based off of their purchase. The Sony is certainly not unwatchable in 3D and it's one of the better 3D projectors. The Sony even has advantages over the JVCs in 2D in certain aspects but JVC is the king of black levels/contrast. But for 3D lumen output is a must if you like a bright pic and at least from Zombie's reports that hasn't been the case and he certainly hasn't been biased and provides great information for those just looking for the best projector to fit their needs.

Who said Sony 3D was unwatchable? Sure hope you're not quoting me-- I said it's unwatchable only for Crysis 2/Uncharted 3 games in stereoscopic 3D. Those are all 720/60p, very different from 1080/24p 3D Blu-Rays; the latter are perfectly watchable, with minor ghosting (that's certainly better than the Panny AE8000U I tested). Haven't seen JVC or Epson, though.

I also watch my 3D movies on my RS46 in Stage mode and I'm very happy with what I see. I've been wondering about something though. I've read a few times in the forums, including this thread I believe, that the CMD is not active in 3D but it shows as active (low setting but greyed out) watching 3D in Stage mode. Am I right to think that this confirms that the CMD feature works with 3D?

There's been quite a few people on this and other forums that have had positive comments on the 3d performance of the new JVCs. Geoffrey Morrison, in his Sound & Vision review of the HW50, 5020 and X35(RS46) states that while the X35's 3D image is not the best that he has seen, he states: "the lightweight glasses and impressive brightness/contrast made it one of the better 3D experience I've had with a projector". From everything I've read it may not be the best at 3d, but a lot of users certainly seem very happy with the performance.

Well, to be honest, I thought the 3D performance on the JVC DLA-X3 I had was good. Yes, there was some crosstalk and it wasn't the brightest thing in the world but it still had good depth and pop. Each member here has their own definition of what will pass for "good" 3D. For some perfect and good are synonymous with each other. To others the 3D performance of a lesser machine still suffices and pleases them enough not to care about some of the negative things of the 3D performance. Considering most users here watch less than 10% of 3D content I think the main focus of most of the upgrades should still be in the 2D department. I still think that 3D is going to be a fad and in another couple years it will dead.

@JVC 3D
As has been said throughout this forum over and over again, the 3d performance of NON-DLP's ghosts more as the lamp ages (much much much more). I don't know why we keep re-having this same discussion, Zombie already tested it and he has seen them all. I know for a fact that some stuff looks good on the JVC with a new lamp, but I guaran-freaking-T-u that the JVC ghosts, every non-DLP ghosts. Throw in the right content even on a JVC RS-46 and ghosting will be pretty bad, even on a new lamp. As that lamp ages, it will only get worse, there is no design difference to change this, and no non-DLP has been able to do this yet that I know of (prevent ghosting on aged lamps).

I understand some are happy with the newer JVC 3D performance, and it is perhaps a tad better, but to say any NON-DLP does not ghost is just ridiculous. I've seen the Epson 5010, and although ghosting is 1/10th what the JVC is, it's still there at times. As the lamp on the Epson ages, the ghosting gets to about half of what a JVC was on a new lamp, maybe even close to equal on a really really old Epson lamp (but haven't seen it on a lamp > 2000 hrs). The Benq I have = 0 ghosting.
Edited by coderguy - 1/29/13 at 6:51pm

I confirm that Sony hw50 has no ghosting with 3D blu-ray and even with HSBS content.
Only time I've seen ghosting is when I was watching Prometeus HSBS (scene on 18th min). Glasses brightness was on "3", I tried to change it to "0" and crosstalk disappeared.

zombie,

Where you still interested in adding the Panny AE8000U to the shootout? I can send you one to test just need an idea on how long you would need it?

It appears that you and others are calling me and others that do not see ghosting, liars.
I know what I see and I see NO ghosting on my DLA-4810, with my eyes, under my conditions.
And I am not trying to justify my purchase to no one - I have no need to do that.

What is obvious is that Zombie and many others like an overly bright image (to my eyes)
Now if the Sony is truly 2x as bright as JVC in 2D and it is projected on 2.4 or 2.8 HP screen, then the image has to be unpleasantly bright (exaggerated BB type image).
Now if that is what one likes, then that is your choice, but it is not mine.
To me it would be unpleasantly bright and I would venture to say it would require me to put on sunglasses.
Remember, not everyone likes a blazing BB image.
Calibrating a TV or projector, always leads to turning brightness levels down from BB image levels.
I had to adjust the aperture to -15 to have a calibrated image that was not overly bright.
Again, please don't get me wrong. If you like that type of brightness, by all means use it

And this may explain why those that crank up brightness (looking to replicate BB) may be seeing ghosting on the JVC, while those that do not care for an overly bright image do not see ghosting.

As far as 2D brightness, all I can tell you is that the DLA-RS4810 is significantly brighter (with aperture at -15) than the DLA-HD250 I had previously, with both in calibrated 2D cinema mode. Opening up the aperture more than -15 started throwing off my calibration and to my eyes was brighter than it needed to be. No review I have seen of the HD250 has shown calibrated cinema mode output of less than 750 lumens. The 4810 is without any doubt, brighter than the 250, it replaced in my HT. Now if you want to call me a liar,that is your prerogative, but I know what I see.

The 3D mode is significantly brighter than the cinema mode.
I did not calibrate the 3D mode as I did not like it and thought the stage mode was more than bright enough.

So why don't we try to show a little respect for one another and not go around calling others liars.
All I was saying, is what I see in my HT, with my eyes, without disputing others, without making definitive statements and without calling others liars.

I have said all that I have to say and will not say any more. I have no intent to argue with anyone.
I just stated what I see, with my eyes, under my conditions.
If you all want to keep on arguing, go ahead.
However, I am going to get back to enjoying movies in both 2D and 3D (ghost free and flicker free), in my HT, under my conditions, with my eyes and not spend any more time in this thread.

Peace to all

No-one called you a liar, we are just saying they all ghost. You may not see the ghosting, but it's there with the right content. If you really want to see ghosting, load up a game and try it in 3D, enuff said.

You are misunderstanding what we are saying, it's due to the technology limitations, ALL NON-DLP's have SOME ghosting, whether you see it or not, it's part of the tech, their is no argument here as it is a known fact. Not seeing ghosting on certain 3D blurays does not mean the PJ does not ghost.

As far as lumens go, this is impossible to tell without measuring it, you can buy a $15 light meter and measure it. Of course when you get a new projector it will seem brighter because you now have a new lamp, doh...

@ Dionyz... I think it is a bit disingenuous to claim those wanting more 3D lumens desire a BB image. There are standards (e.g. SMPTE 196M) and recommendations (e.g. 12-16ftL) for brightness and just because most have accepted well below those standards and recommendations for 3D and have allowed for things like ignoring calibration and lowering gamma (not saying that you have done either of these) does not mean that those that pay attention to brightness in 3D desire a torch-mode image. Just do the math... if you desire 12ftL for your image and your 3D glasses eliminate roughly 80% of the light, a rough estimate is that you should have 60ftL in 3D mode. Calibrated. Can you point me to a projector that does that on a reference 142" screen for under $5K? 60 sqft of screen, 1.1 gain, 60ftL... that translates to nearly 3300 calibrated lumens in 3D mode to get 12ftL to your eyes. It is not a desire for BB style image that people want more brightness in a 3D mode, it is a desire for a decently bright, detailed image with correct colors. Again, doing the math, if zombie is getting 1K lumens to his 60 sqft screen in 3D mode for a given PJ, and is getting 2.5 gain at the viewer position, that still only comes to about 8ftL equivalent after the glasses... I can see why he's still searching for more brightness!
Edited by dougri - 1/29/13 at 11:13pm

I think it's a little early to make claims about ghosting on your JVC model. How many hours do you have on the bulb? If it's still under a couple hundred I think you should wait to make any claim about zero ghosting.

Mine is at 100 hours.Crosstalk cancellor set to 8(brightest setting).
For me and the missus.3D mode and high lamp is uncomfortably bright
in 3d.
We have it set on low lamp,and stage or natural setting.
My brother also has the x35 but on a 120 ".His we run in stage mode with the lamp on high.
Dont watch any kids 3d,mostly sci-fi type 3d.Am thinking for the type of movies we watch
the JVC does a fab job in 3d
About the Sony,ive heard it crosstalks with SBS.Can any who own it here comment on that.
I fit ghosts like crazy at 300 hours ill send it back.
JVCs web site definately states ghost free 3d as a feature.

Hi Zombie im just reposting this because I think you missed it and I still haven't heard from you. I'm just waiting to pull the trigger on this one, but first have to make sure its going to work.

That ceiling is too low, as the least amount of lens shift is about 10 inches above the top of the viewable part of the screen's edge (not frame) for that screen size.

Take a look at the Benq w7000, it will FIT perfectly for this setup because the w7000 has center-based lens shift (you can place it anywhere within the screen area). Other than black levels, the w7000 beats the Mits anyways (wins in sharpness and has FI in 3D, brighter 2D, brighter 3D). The Benq is actually bareable in dark scenes after some tweaking of the IRIS, it's not that bad. Otherwise, take a look at the Epson/Sony/JVC offerings, because the w7000 is the only DLP that is going to fit in that room.
Edited by coderguy - 1/30/13 at 4:11am

Quick question. I just recently got an RS35. When setting the iris is there any difference between let's say having the projector in low lamp mode with the iris open all the way vs high lamp mode with the iris partially open? In both examples if set up for the same lumens would they be identical?

The contrast is higher with the IRIS clamped down, so you get higher contrast with the IRIS partially closed or closed completely (deeper blacks w/ brighter whites).
Though you might not notice much difference.

Why does an aging bulb create more ghosting? If brightness and ghosting are a tradeoff why would an aging bulb that is less bright result in more ghosting? Just trying to understand.

Thanks

We don't know, but it does. One theory is that it's the extra heat a new lamp generates. Both my JVCs ghosted a LOT more with age, and my Epson 6010 at about 2,000 hours is getting close to having the amount of ghosting of the JVCs with new lamps.

It is a new lamp and less brightness, that is a double whammy against comparing it.
Let's see the same amount of hours on the lamp at equal brightness, then it's a fair comparison. The problem is we can't, so even your comparison (although in good faith) cannot tell us exactly.

At 1,500 hours on the 5010, it's quickly starting to catch up to the ghosting of the JVC (though it's only about half atm).
This is the problem folks with NON-DLP 3D.

I don't know about your setup but on my 119" HP 2.4 screen I can definately see ghosting on the Sony HW50ES with most (all?) brightness settings. I watched Prometheus 3D yesterday and there were several scenes with ghosting visible even when not looking for it, if you look for ghosting you can find it rather easily. All in all Prometheus still looked rather good, even with some ghosting. I think I'm more annoyed by the slight flicker in bright details. Right in the start of Sammy's adventure with the bright sun and sky, the flicker is very apparent and annoying. Some slight ghosting is visible throughout the film.

The idea is to not look for it. If its there but you generally don't see it because you are looking elsewhere in the picture than where the ghosting occurs or God forbid you are taking in the entire scene, you won't see it. Forums are great. We get trained to see every weakness that a particular projector has rather than just enjoying what it does do and training ourselves NOT to see problems.

If you think a HP is great and causes no problems or doesn't take certain desirable characterics of high picture quality away, then great. Enjoy it. that's what most do here. They don't know ad don't want to know. the forum reinforces those beliefs. Its great. Why act differently re projectors? His projector is great. He enjoys it and doesn't see the ghosting. He is a lucky man.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/31/13 at 1:01pm