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Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 112

post #3331 of 4164
1/30/13 at 8:56am
I don't find that to be the case. I now have both a 1.0 gain screen and a high power 2.4 in front of it, and if anything, the ghosting is less not more. With more gain, there's also the potential to dial back the monstervision 3d glasses settings to potentially reduce crosstalk. This is on my Sony vw95. I see some ghosting occasionally on both, but no more on the high power. I actually find Hugo the most irritating, with the side of the boy's face ghosting frequently (white face with dark backgrounds). Avatar and Prometheus I see minimal ghosting. None of my guests have ever mentioned it on any movies, because they aren't looking for it.
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post #3332 of 4164
1/30/13 at 9:02am
Was there a reason JVC went to the connections on the side of their projectors for awhile? Was there some benefit technically to this design that is was worth moving the connections to an obviously worse location on the side vs the rear?
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post #3333 of 4164
1/30/13 at 9:26am
Ghosting gets bad enough eventually that you'd have to be a one-eyed cyclops not to see it. It's like saying cross your eyes and pretend you're using normal vision because it really does get that bad eventually on some content.
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post #3334 of 4164
1/30/13 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The brighter the 3D / gain of the screen, the more obvious ghosting becomes. With my setup (2.8 HP, lens center mount) you don't have to go looking for crosstalk, it's right there. Especially on a 142" screen @ 1.25 SW.

If you have a small, low gain screen, crosstalk hides in the shadows once the active shutter glasses consume nearly 80% of the light coming off the screen.

With my newly blacked out ceiling, I was surprised how much more I saw it on the Epson 5020 recently with only ~100 hours on the lamp. The 3D DLP's are flawless in this regard.

This is exactly my experience as well. Moving from my ST130 to the HP 2.8 a few years back when I had my RS40, I noticed a few things pretty quickly. Not only did ghosting become considerably more obvious on the brighter 2.8 vs my ST130 and vs what I was seeing on Sam's ~1.0 AT screen, but flicker was also much easier to see now. The brighter the 3d, the more obvious the flaws like ghosting and flicker will become. The dimmer the 3d, the more these issues will be masked which is a big part of why people with big low gain screens in particular using the new JVCs this year are not noticing the ghosting and flicker that is still undoubtedly there to some degree (I know it has been improved). It is a compromise either way you cut it though.............less light with less noticeable ghosting/flicker or more light with more ghosting/flicker............. I was sick of all of those headaches and just grabbed a single chip DLP. biggrin.gif You get the brightness, zero ghosting and zero flicker. cool.gif Thanks to the work done in this thread, I like knowing that not only do I get truly ghost/flicker free 3d with the BenQ, but literally TWO times the light output (560 vs 1100) in 3d vs having gone with the 4810 which I was considering at one point.


Not to mention warm up time, increased ghosting as the lamp ages and no FI in 3d................. I am SO glad not to have to think about the "warm up time" anymore and dont have to worry what my 3d will look like with 500 hours on the lamp (my RS40 got MUCH worse as far as ghosting between 300-400 hours on the lamp). Good riddance to all those headaches!
Edited by Toe - 1/30/13 at 9:44am
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post #3335 of 4164
1/30/13 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

That ceiling is too low, as the least amount of lens shift is about 10 inches above the top of the viewable part of the screen's edge (not frame) for that screen size.

Take a look at the Benq w7000, it will FIT perfectly for this setup because the w7000 has center-based lens shift (you can place it anywhere within the screen area). Other than black levels, the w7000 beats the Mits anyways (wins in sharpness and has FI in 3D, brighter 2D, brighter 3D). The Benq is actually bareable in dark scenes after some tweaking of the IRIS, it's not that bad. Otherwise, take a look at the Epson/Sony/JVC offerings, because the w7000 is the only DLP that is going to fit in that room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Hi, see coderguy's response, it won't work in your setup without tilting + keystone adjustments which isn't recommended. There's a number of other good choices that will provide better mounting flexibility.

Are you guys sure that it wont work because remember the projector sits 5 to 6 inches down from the ceiling not flush with it?
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post #3336 of 4164
1/30/13 at 4:14pm
Yes, we're sure.
Even with a flush mount, it still would not work.
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post #3337 of 4164
1/30/13 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

This is exactly my experience as well. Moving from my ST130 to the HP 2.8 a few years back when I had my RS40, I noticed a few things pretty quickly. Not only did ghosting become considerably more obvious on the brighter 2.8 vs my ST130 and vs what I was seeing on Sam's ~1.0 AT screen, but flicker was also much easier to see now. The brighter the 3d, the more obvious the flaws like ghosting and flicker will become. The dimmer the 3d, the more these issues will be masked which is a big part of why people with big low gain screens in particular using the new JVCs this year are not noticing the ghosting and flicker that is still undoubtedly there to some degree (I know it has been improved). It is a compromise either way you cut it though.............less light with less noticeable ghosting/flicker or more light with more ghosting/flicker............. I was sick of all of those headaches and just grabbed a single chip DLP. biggrin.gif You get the brightness, zero ghosting and zero flicker. cool.gif Thanks to the work done in this thread, I like knowing that not only do I get truly ghost/flicker free 3d with the BenQ, but literally TWO times the light output (560 vs 1100) in 3d vs having gone with the 4810 which I was considering at one point.


Not to mention warm up time, increased ghosting as the lamp ages and no FI in 3d................. I am SO glad not to have to think about the "warm up time" anymore and dont have to worry what my 3d will look like with 500 hours on the lamp (my RS40 got MUCH worse as far as ghosting between 300-400 hours on the lamp). Good riddance to all those headaches!

As the delay on the Red laser projector stretches to infinity, I'm reconsidering a DLP for 3D, too. I just can't keep a resolution. biggrin.gif

You and Zombie got me thinking more about it when you mentioned that the lower contrast of the BenQ doesn't bother you so much in 3D. I had a similar experience when I watched several 3D scenes last night on my LG LM7600 LCD display (passive 3D). It's a set that I've used almost exclusively for 3D editing. The black level and contrast aren't anywhere close to what I get with my Samsung 3D plasma. But the LG is far brighter and ghosts a lot less. So, I popped in Monsters vs Aliens and Avatar and went back and forth between the two sets. Except for the mildly irritating jaggies on the LG (from displaying only half vertical resolution), the LG outperformed the Samsung in every way that matters to me for watching 3D. eek.gif It really surprised me. Except for DLP, the LG also ghosts less than any other display I've seen (at least as long as you stay in the sweet spot). Anyway, if I can find a really good deal on a BenQ W7000, I'll consider it. If there's anyone out there near St. Louis who has one, I'd love to take a peek. Please PM me if you wouldn't mind me coming over some evening.
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post #3338 of 4164
1/30/13 at 5:19pm
And could someone please remind me which glasses are compatible with the 7000.
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post #3339 of 4164
1/30/13 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yes, we're sure.
Even with a flush mount, it still would not work.

Wow I find that hard to swallow because I have the most standard setup you can get. How in the world do you have to mount this thing then?
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post #3340 of 4164
1/30/13 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoguy1 View Post

There's been quite a few people on this and other forums that have had positive comments on the 3d performance of the new JVCs. Geoffrey Morrison, in his Sound & Vision review of the HW50, 5020 and X35(RS46) states that while the X35's 3D image is not the best that he has seen, he states: "the lightweight glasses and impressive brightness/contrast made it one of the better 3D experience I've had with a projector". From everything I've read it may not be the best at 3d, but a lot of users certainly seem very happy with the performance.

I really only commented on this subject based on the poster who believes JVC is the best which just isn't going to be true for everyone. Especially when it comes to 3D IMO. My biggest complaints about the JVC would be the brightness and lack of FI in 3D. I may be a bit of an oddball here but I can't watch 2D on an LCOS without FI as camera pans just are not fluid without it. The picture in 3D on any of the projectors isn't going to be as good as it is in 2D so combine all the other issues with poor camera pans and for me it's distracting. Also, unless a huge improvement that JVC needed over last years models was 3D brightness. I just watched The Amazing Spider-Man a couple of weeks ago on my HW50 with an HP screen. This film is dark to begin with but IMO even the Sony could be brighter. On my RS45 it was very dim. How much brightness one considers good is a personal choice. Some people only need minimal brightness but I prefer a plasma type brightness. It's funny that when I lurked over in the TV forums you rarely heard about plasmas being too bright. LCDs however were another story. But in the front projection forum there are many that prefer an image with very little light. Maybe they have overly sensitive eyes or maybe my eyes aren't sensitive enough. smile.gif
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post #3341 of 4164
1/30/13 at 6:19pm
I love JVC projectors for 2D. That being said I can't deal with the ghosting and lack of brightness for 3D. I have gone the 2 projector route with a Benq 1070 for 3D and general some general viewing. If you don't have a problem with RBE just compare a DLP projector on 3D with any JVC. If one is not interested in 3d or views in on rarely the JVC will probably be fine. It all depends on the individual and if ghosting and flicker will bother you on 3d.
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post #3342 of 4164
1/30/13 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gagorian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yusuf.0088 View Post

I confirm that Sony hw50 has no ghosting with 3D blu-ray and even with HSBS content.
Only time I've seen ghosting is when I was watching Prometeus HSBS (scene on 18th min). Glasses brightness was on "3", I tried to change it to "0" and crosstalk disappeared.
I don't know about your setup but on my 119" HP 2.4 screen I can definately see ghosting on the Sony HW50ES with most (all?) brightness settings. I watched Prometheus 3D yesterday and there were several scenes with ghosting visible even when not looking for it, if you look for ghosting you can find it rather easily. All in all Prometheus still looked rather good, even with some ghosting. I think I'm more annoyed by the slight flicker in bright details. Right in the start of Sammy's adventure with the bright sun and sky, the flicker is very apparent and annoying. Some slight ghosting is visible throughout the film.

I'm just trying to say that I expected worse from Sony regarding ghosting.
I watched Prometeus on light yellow wall in my hotel room (I'm in China now). I'll get home in couple days and I'll try to watch this movie again in my MW screen (I can make it any size). It's about 20 hours on lamp age and if you want, post the scene time with ghosting which you seen. I'll check it and post some screenshots.

Yusuf
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post #3343 of 4164
1/30/13 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravex911 View Post

zombie,

Where you still interested in adding the Panny AE8000U to the shootout? I can send you one to test just need an idea on how long you would need it?

That would be great!
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post #3344 of 4164
1/30/13 at 7:35pm
Thread Starter 
I sent ravex a PM, i'd definitely be interested in adding the Panasonic 8000 to the shoot-out thread. I still have the 5020, so I would do a direct A/B between the Epson and Panasonic.
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post #3345 of 4164
1/30/13 at 7:46pm
Thanks, Jason. I am sure many people are interested in this.
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post #3346 of 4164
1/30/13 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

As the delay on the Red laser projector stretches to infinity, I'm reconsidering a DLP for 3D, too. I just can't keep a resolution. biggrin.gif

You and Zombie got me thinking more about it when you mentioned that the lower contrast of the BenQ doesn't bother you so much in 3D. I had a similar experience when I watched several 3D scenes last night on my LG LM7600 LCD display (passive 3D). It's a set that I've used almost exclusively for 3D editing. The black level and contrast aren't anywhere close to what I get with my Samsung 3D plasma. But the LG is far brighter and ghosts a lot less. So, I popped in Monsters vs Aliens and Avatar and went back and forth between the two sets. Except for the mildly irritating jaggies on the LG (from displaying only half vertical resolution), the LG outperformed the Samsung in every way that matters to me for watching 3D. eek.gif It really surprised me. Except for DLP, the LG also ghosts less than any other display I've seen (at least as long as you stay in the sweet spot). Anyway, if I can find a really good deal on a BenQ W7000, I'll consider it. If there's anyone out there near St. Louis who has one, I'd love to take a peek. Please PM me if you wouldn't mind me coming over some evening.

See if you can track one down and check it out. I continue to be impressed with the 3d on the 7000 and all the gripes I had with the 40/45 are gone. cool.gif Watched Tahiti and Megamind a few nights ago in 3d, both of which I have seen a few times on either the 40, 45 or both and the overall experience on the 7000 due to zero ghosting, zero flicker and the better motion due to the FI in low made both feel like a new experience to some degree. I still need to calibrate behind the glasses which will make things even better, but I will get to that when I feel up to it.

As far as glasses, I don't know all the compatible models. I am using the TrueDepth and Optoma ZD201 and I like both. To my eyes, the performance is damn near identical. I like the TD better as far as the lenses/style go, but the nice thing about the smaller 201 lenses is they cut out more of the rear room reflections in my room so I end up using these the most. If not for the rear room reflection advantage of the 201s I would just use the TD as they hold sync a bit better it seems and are much cheaper as well. Speaking of which, that is about the only gripe I have with the 7000 for 3d is the glasses don't hold a sync as well as my JVCs. Not a big deal in my setup as I rarely entertain, but if I had people over more and was turning my head to talk (which is when they loose sync) to others the loosing sync thing would get annoying. Something to be aware of if you have people over to watch 3d quite a bit.

Overall though I am glad I bought the 7000 and it has lived up to my high expectations. The 45/7000 is a fantastic 2d/3d combo. cool.gif
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post #3347 of 4164
1/30/13 at 10:21pm
Thanks, Toe. I can pick one up at a local store that has a good return policy, so I might do that. I'm still debating internally. biggrin.gif
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post #3348 of 4164
1/31/13 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

I love JVC projectors for 2D. That being said I can't deal with the ghosting and lack of brightness for 3D. I have gone the 2 projector route with a Benq 1070 for 3D and general some general viewing. If you don't have a problem with RBE just compare a DLP projector on 3D with any JVC. If one is not interested in 3d or views in on rarely the JVC will probably be fine. It all depends on the individual and if ghosting and flicker will bother you on 3d.

And I'd say if you DO see rainbows as i do, the Epson 5020 is your best bet. I really have to look to see ghosting. I'm sure the newer JVC's are better, but my RS40 with a brand new bulb couldn't begin to match the 5020 in 3D (also with a pretty new bulb at this point) for brightness and ghosting.
Having both is really a sweet set up, as I can save the Epson for 3D and the bulb should last a good while before 3D performance starts to suffer.

I'm totally sold that a JVC for 2D and a BenQ 7000 or Epson 5020 for 3D is the current way to go.

S A M 33
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post #3349 of 4164
1/31/13 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by S A M 33 View Post

... I'm totally sold that a JVC for 2D and a BenQ 7000 or Epson 5020 for 3D is the current way to go.

S A M 33

I wanted to add a little context... I'd say the above may be true for some as long as

1) You don't play games on your projector
2) You have a modern AV receiver that allows lip sync to be adjusted

The latency of these projectors, IMHO, requires the above conditions in order to have a satisfactory experience.
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post #3350 of 4164
1/31/13 at 8:13am
I should be able to get it out to you early next week. PM me your shipping details and I will have it out to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I sent ravex a PM, i'd definitely be interested in adding the Panasonic 8000 to the
shoot-out thread. I still have the 5020, so I would do a direct A/B between the Epson and Panasonic.
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post #3351 of 4164
1/31/13 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

I wanted to add a little context... I'd say the above may be true for some as long as

1) You don't play games on your projector
2) You have a modern AV receiver that allows lip sync to be adjusted

The latency of these projectors, IMHO, requires the above conditions in order to have a satisfactory experience.


I agree with you that the lag time is too high on the Epson and JVCs in particular (JVC more than Epson) and I really hope improvements can be made here next year, BUT casual gamers will be fine playing games on these machines. I played games off and on with my RS1, SRS40 and RS45 and never found lag to be an issue. The BenQ 7000 improves things more with its 50ms. It was only when I got a game that I was serious about (SSX) that I noticed a slight, but noticeable difference between my 45 and the plasma upstairs. So my opinion is casual type gamers will be fine with playing games on any of these projectors, but super competitive type players who play a lot of FPS or fast twitch type games might want to look at something like an Epson 8350 with its 18ms of lag or if you need 3d, the Sonys or Panasonic projectors which are still good at ~30ms.


I have never noticed any lip sync issues due to latency with my RS1, 40,45 or 7000. My 885 pre/pro does have a lip sync adjustment if I needed it, but I have never felt any need to use it.
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post #3352 of 4164
1/31/13 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I agree with you that the lag time is too high on the Epson and JVCs in particular (JVC more than Epson) and I really hope improvements can be made here next year, BUT casual gamers will be fine playing games on these machines. I played games off and on with my RS1, SRS40 and RS45 and never found lag to be an issue. The BenQ 7000 improves things more with its 50ms. It was only when I got a game that I was serious about (SSX) that I noticed a slight, but noticeable difference between my 45 and the plasma upstairs. So my opinion is casual type gamers will be fine with playing games on any of these projectors, but super competitive type players who play a lot of FPS or fast twitch type games might want to look at something like an Epson 8350 with its 18ms of lag or if you need 3d, the Sonys or Panasonic projectors which are still good at ~30ms.


I have never noticed any lip sync issues due to latency with my RS1, 40,45 or 7000. My 885 pre/pro does have a lip sync adjustment if I needed it, but I have never felt any need to use it.

It's all very specific to the individual. Lip sync problems are very noticeable to me and ruin the experience. I've read that anything above 20ms is often noticeable and frustrating to many, so 70ms or greater is quite obvious! Again, this is only a problem if your AV receiver is old (like mine) and doesn't support a compensation delay.

One reason I went with the HW30, in addition to playing games, was I didn't want to spend more money to upgrade my otherwise perfectly fine receiver. Others may be in the same boat and this situation isn't often called out.
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post #3353 of 4164
1/31/13 at 10:51am
Credit upfront for freebits for finding this; evidently (according to the AVForums.com review) there's a software error causing the X55/RS48/RS4810 green undersaturation error than many of us have noticed and measured. Their second projector sample's CMS was completely able to perfectly calibrate green while their first sample was showing green errors almost identical to what we've all noticed.

Hopefully JVC can fix this with a firmware update...I'll shoot a PM to Mike to see if he can get more info from JVC about it.
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post #3354 of 4164
1/31/13 at 11:13am
Thread Starter 
I'm curious to see how that pans out. This isn't the first time a similar issue was discovered with previous models and nothing was done about it. The color profiles could likely been fixed/updated with a new firmware, but it never happened.
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post #3355 of 4164
1/31/13 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'm curious to see how that pans out. This isn't the first time a similar issue was discovered with previous models and nothing was done about it. The color profiles could likely been fixed/updated with a new firmware, but it never happened.
The difference (maybe) this time is that evidently JVC's already implemented a fix -- evidenced by the fact that AVForum's second unit had the issue corrected.

Mike's contacted JVC's engineers about the issue so we'll see what, if anything, they have to say. In my case I managed to get my green dE2000 below 3 but it took quite a bit of finagling since changing one CMS control typically affected a completely different characteristic than I expected it to. Also, a software issue wouldn't totally surprise me since increasing the green saturation control beyond 0 had absolutely no measurable effect on the picture.

We'll see.
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post #3356 of 4164
1/31/13 at 11:36am
Thread Starter 
~3 isn't bad, it could be within the spec of the meter, but since there hasn't been any reports from the X35 or the X75/95, hopefully it's just a tweak via a remote firmware download.

My only concern is that it could be similar to the 3D fix for the X35/RS46 and might need to be sent in. Let us know what JVC has to say.
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post #3357 of 4164
1/31/13 at 12:18pm
I currently have an RS2 with almost 2k hours on the lamp. I use a .3 ND filter to lower light output on my small 40x96 1.0 gain screen. I don't see the pixels from my 1x screen width viewing distance. If I remove the filter, I can see pixels just a little bit. Since I can't see pixels, with the filter in place, would there be any real advantage of e-shift? My room is all black velvet by the way. The only e-shift projectors i can afford are the 4810 and a used 55.

Ideally, I would go with a JVC for 2D and a under $2k DLP for 3D but I can't find a 3D DLP that will work in my small 13' deep room. I use the CIH zoom method so this only complicates things. Since I like a much dimmer picture than most, I wonder if the JVC would be good enough for 3D as ghosting would lessen.confused.gif

I will only consider JVC for 2D.

Thanks,
Tom
Edited by Tom Monahan - 1/31/13 at 12:36pm
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post #3358 of 4164
1/31/13 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

...Forum are great. We get trained to see every weakness that a particular projector has rather than just enjoying what it does do and training ourselves NOT to see problems.

...His projector is great. He enjoys it and doesn't see the ghosting. He is a lucky man.

IMO, words of wisdom...
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post #3359 of 4164
1/31/13 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

~3 isn't bad, it could be within the spec of the meter, but since there hasn't been any reports from the X35 or the X75/95, hopefully it's just a tweak via a remote firmware download.

My only concern is that it could be similar to the 3D fix for the X35/RS46 and might need to be sent in. Let us know what JVC has to say.
I doubt it's simply within spec of the meter since the green's saturation control literally does nothing. I'll keep everyone posted since I know I'm not the only one to have noticed the green undersaturation.
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post #3360 of 4164
1/31/13 at 1:48pm
If I had the reported undersaturation I would not send it in. It will not be noticeable for the vat majority of anyone's viewing. The hassles of sending it in, have the shipper use it as shot put, yada yada to correct a few colors. Not worth it. And if you think it is, I would at least thing about you being neurotic.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout 2012-2013