Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 4

Hi there from Germany,

I just registered to the forums but I read a lot here before registering now.

zombie: Those comparisons you do here and did in the other thread are very good and seem to reproduce the reality one can see with his own eyes very well IMO.

One question: Is the HW50 you now have a pre-production sample or a serial production one?

I've recently had the chance to review a HW50 in my room and did a direct comparison to a JVC X30. The HW50 unfortunately was still a pre-production sample. Concerning the noise/grain that will be emphasized by the RC: We found that the Noise-slider in the RC-function had nearly no influence on the noise, but the MPEG noise reduction in the expert menu did. For example with The Dark Knight we set MPEG Noise reduction to low and it did a good job to soften the noise again when the RC was on, but the effect of the RC was still visible.
Ekki from cine4home wrote nearly the same in his report.

Looking at the "mechanical sharpness" of both the projectors (that means definition of single pixels by looking very close, and impression of the overall sharpness when all sharpness settings were set to 0 on both projekctors) the JVC X30 was definitely better there.

With the RC on, but not too high (the default 20 seems already very high, I then set it to 10) and the MPEG noise reduction set to low, picture seemed a bit sharper then on the X30.

However the MPEG noise reduction didn't work with all movies, Apollo 13 for example has a very coarse grain, there I found no setting to reduce this grain that will be sharpened by the RC.

So maybe you take the MPEG noise reductioin into consideration as well with your tests.

What we also haven't tested is the influence of the normal sharpness setting in the picture menu and how it works together with the RC. We set the sharpness in the picture menu to 0.

Sorry to bother you zombie10k when do you think you'll get the Epson 5020. Because I'm looking at Benq W7000 and Epson 5020. I was told by the wife this will be my last upgade for 3 years.

When JVC starts shipping the new models with eshift-2, I think Zombie will proclaim it a tremendous improvement over eshift. It was night and day to me.

Somebody made a crack about eshift whatever reinteration will be a footnote in projector history some day.

Eshift is a means of displaying a native 1080p image as if it were a native 2 x 1080p image by scaling that image to 2 x 1080p (1920 x 1080)and then from that scaled image extracting two different 1080p frames flashed sequentially by with one image sgifted one half pixel over and down. The pixels overlap and the eye sees 2 x 1080p (3840 x 2160) pixels. The resulting image approximates what one would see with a 1080p image scaled to 2 x 1080p and displayed with a 3840 x 2160 panel. Such panels are coming and Sony already has them for the consumer level. So will JVC I predict and I predict 2 x1080p panels (3840 x 1920) will be in JVC models next year or at least in some of them.The eshift process, the scaling and image extraction involves considerable video processing and includes processing which also sharpens the image. How this is done, i don't know. it could be contrast emhancement which is not of course classical sharpening by which is a measure of sharpness.

Sony has its RC and for purposes of the HW50 it is a decendent of the RC in the 1000ES. Why is it in the 50? I believe it is there because it was already developed and all that wass involved is putting available chips in the 50 platform. It isn't there to emulate 4HD just like RC in the the 1000ES has nothing to do with the number of pixels. It is to apply sharpening and filtering to the image. Its the same in the 50 but here it is to sharpen the 1080p image. It has a harder job to do in the 50, not number crunching wise because the number of pixels is 75% less or so, but it has to make up for an inferior lens than the competition. I suspect the replacement for the 95 will as in the 90 use a much better lens and the RC processing would be set much lower if it still uses a 1080p panel. I suspect it will use a 4HD or 4K panel.

4K panels are coming and the better projectors in the sub 10K or so class will quickly start using them. But that wouldn't stop me from buying a eshift2 machine for JVC now or one of the Sony's, the 50, the 95 replacement, or the 1000ES which is my reference projector in my HT. It doesn't buzz when using the internal 3D IR emitter. I suspect Sony will fix the buzzing problem in the 50 quickly. It wouldn't stop me from buying one now, I would just plug in an external emitter, either IR and RF, if the plugging in solved the problem because it disabes the onboard emitter which is the source of the problem as I under stand it from posts here.


Kudos to my friend Jason. Great work here.
Edited by mark haflich - 10/23/12 at 11:59am

I live in South America and have no way to actually see the projectors in person before i buy. I'm looking to spend around $5500 on my first projector and screen which i will buy in december when i'm traveling to Miami and then bringing them back with me. My brother owns a JVC X3 with a SI 1.1 cinewhite screen and the picture needs to be a lot brighter for my taste. I'm between the Sony HW50 and the JVC X55, I will be watching mostly blu-ray 10 ft away from the screen and the projector can be shooting from 9 to 14 ft. What do you experts recommend for screens and which projector would you choose thats best overall? I don't know if i should post this in another thread, its my first time posting too.

I'm looking at a screen sizes of 110" or 120"

Mike Garrett just posted in the HW50ES thread the scoop on the buzzing sound in 3D. Mike and I, I am the technical nerd in the M&M combination, speculated that there was a resonance in the timing circuit for the IR emitter which consists in part of caps and resistors, and that Sony could fix this by changing some cap part values or potting the caps to deaden the sound. Lo and behold Sony just notified Mike that the noise is coming from two caps vibrating (internally I suspect because the circuit is going into electrical resonance) and that Sony is fixing the problem and for machines before the fix, Sony will supply the end user with a free external emitter. See mike's post, I think number 259, in the Sony 50ES thread.

Zombie, can you comment on how much lens shift affects the optical sharpness of the HW50 and JVC? I'm interested in roughly how far it is possible to go on the vertical lens shift before the image is noticeable degraded.

Thanks for the good work!

Looks like the Reality creation on the rocks shirt made a decent change.

Zombie,

What is your take on 2D with the RS45 vs 50ES, in regards to the both without the Darbee and with the Darbee. Thanks

I love partial questions. Like will the projectoir be able to light up a 132 inch wide screen.

What's the throw, what's the screen gain.

Well re lens shift it depends on where the projector is in its zoom range. The chip image occupies a lot more of the lens at short throw than it does at long.

starting with the image center around the lens center, with a 16/9 chip, the left right edges are farther away from the lens center than the top and bottom. Then as you go towars shorter throw, the image in the lens becomes bigger and the edges get farther away from lens center. Then you you move one edge closer towards lens center and the other further away. One must evaluate by observing the end closest to the lens boundary. At long throw, small exit image from lens, more lens shift is posible than at close throw (largest image). That's why lenses perform better sharpness wise at l;ong throw, because everything os closer to the sweet spot.


Anyhow, to seek an evaluation, you need to specify the throw multiplier or the throw distance and sceen width with aspect ration of the screen.

How about maybe . . . you are the one who's wrong (especially with lacking respect for another's view!). I just got done previewing this for myself and came away feeling even better about the RS55/Darbee combo (MPC/2 should be even better!). MPC is much more "real" in terms of IQ than the RC with Darbee (which did look very "cooked"). But this is all a matter of perspective... try it sometime... it really works.

Does that make me wrong too?? I'm sure to you it does but it doesn't make it de-facto "false info" just because you don't agree with another's perspective on this forum. I agree with one thing you said however... personal taste... it's different for everyone... keep that in mind and show a little respect.

"Cooked?"

Boiled? Stewed? Fried? Baked? Grilled? Roasted? Braised? Poached?


I guess it doesn't matter as long as you don't get burnt.

I prefer my picture Sauteed my friend! A little bit of salt (WB) and a LOT of Black pepper (oh and I forgot to mention... the JVC also had a LOT more pepper than the Sony!).

I'm sure he can speak for himself, but he certainly wasn't trying to disrespect anyone. I can appreciate the point he was trying to get across. The problem on these forums is there is a lot of here say thrown around. People speak through others experiences without having first hand knowledge.

Yes but first consider the source making the claim (was my point).

There are just so many variables that even when people are right they are wrong. Like you can watch a certain movie and it looks better on one projector than another, just because of the processing, noise, darkness/lightness in the movie. However, there are certain projectors that overwhelmingly look better across certain content for specific attributes for sure (darker blacks, sharper, whatever). There are times where I've thought, wow I don't need my JVC cause I haven't seen too many dark blacks lately, then at other times I'm reminded of how good it is at that point when I watch a certain movie.

I think last year's JVC's are really good at what they are good at, and not that bad at what they are not the best at (except they stunk it up in 3D, especially after lamp ages and then it's ghost city).

Haven't seen any of the newer projectors yet, maybe next month I'll catch them but it'll probably be in a showroom so it's not a great test (better than nothing). Zombie is good at keeping emotion out of the review, even though some says he favors JVC, I really don't think he favors any of them, I think he just likes those attributes more for movies (which many do). I am sure if the Sony really walloped the new JVC, then Zombie will tell us it does.
Edited by coderguy - 10/22/12 at 4:53pm

The projectors in this shoot out are ALL GOOD and none will wallop the others. Some will have better motion, better 3D, higher brightness, etc, and some will have better blacks, and smother picture. It really comes down to what you want and YOUR VIEWING invironment.

It's pretty clear that Jason likes the JVC because he is running: 1. A very large screen (eshift), and 2. HP screen, which really benefits from the lower black floor when the iris is clamped down to -15.

Now, do I wish Jason was running the exact same setup as me. YES. That way I would know how the projectors would compare in my exact situation, but there are too many different possibilities that effect picture quality to say that 1 projector is better for everyones setup is stupid. Jason is very clear that he needs the absolute black floor that only the JVC can provide and he is good at being as impartial as possible.

I agree that everyone needs to see darbee or RC for themselves to decide if they like it or not. However, the comments from members, and reviews seem to very much favour RC on the Sony in moderation (so much so that some people have decided to use the 50 instead of the 95)

Yes, you are right that it depends on the setup for some, but for some people we will make the setup fit the projector if a projector is good enough to be worth it. Actually I do think in some ways some projectors get walloped, but I won't go there :P

My post was more directed at the general observer, not the experienced PRO. I mean all of us know two projectors are better than one, and three is the nirvana. These are mostly going to be incremental improvements over last year (though the Sony is quite a bit brighter), but I want to reserve judgement to see what Zombie says, maybe some improvements will be more than incremental.

Now there's some good perspective!

(Oh and BTW... so as not to sound like a complete JVC fanboy... the Sony's motion on sports was fantastic!)

It's more content based than setup based for most of us, since most of these projectors can be rigged to fit in someone's setup (other than CIH issues, but even that is workable). As I've said before, I'll sledge hammer a room before I refuse to install a projector that I like. We're already starting to get past the point of the Lumens issue for most people other than the ones that have the gigantico NON-gain screens or need some ridiculo amount of lens shift or throw. The reason projectors don't wallop another is because if anyone says it did, then you'll get rotten pumpkin pies thrown at you for the next 6 months in the forum. That said, most aren't THAT far apart, but depends how picky someone is (I'm pretty picky).
Edited by coderguy - 10/22/12 at 6:12pm

You took my thoughts exactly. If artifacts are present then it adjusted to high. Cine4Home and Projector Review have tested extensively and recommend no more than a setting of 20.

So is the RC going to be set to 40 to compare against the Darbee? In that is indeed going to be the case, the Darbee will win. No contest.

Here is what Art states:
"After extensive viewing of material with Reality Creation on (at the lowest default setting of 20 out of 100), and comparing that to RC turned off, the image looks much better to me, when on in almost all cases. Much better!

I've played with detail enhancement features for several years now. Most cannot add much "sharpness" without also revealing some level of minor artifacts - which can be annoying.
The Sony seems to offer the best yet. I spent over an hour playing with Reality Creation, and Epson's Super-Resolution, side by side (HW50ES, and HC5010). No question, even on the low default of 20, the Sony makes everything look sharper than the Epson even with its Super-Resolution up at maximum of 5. Mind you I would not use Super-Res at 5, because in many scenes its "over the top", and easily noticeable. (3 is good, 4 usually is fine). With RC, however, at 20, almost everything looks great, and sharp, (15 is even safer). Rarely at 20 did I see anything over the top. An exception is a shot of Pippen from Lord of the Rings."
http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/hw50es/index.php

See salt? Try a bit of sea salt on a piece of chocolate.Yum.

Excellent points. Actually Zombie recommends a two projector setup: the JVC 55 for 2D and the BenQ 7000 for 3D.

The big question here is will ONE PROJECTOR be good enough for 2D/3D for the vast majority of consumers?
The answer should be cherry-pick'in obvious!

Well I haven't seen this year's projectors, so I cannot say but in the past there were definitely some real dissapointments. That is why we are lucky to have an honest reviewer here, since it seems the other reviewers mostly either miss stuff or someone is slipping them money under the table (hey not accusing anyone, but it sure seems some of that way as ridiculous as some reviews have gotten). Each year the professional reviews have gotten more and more ridiculous and invalid.

The hc7800 was walloped, so I disagree all projectors are good choices, according to the overwhelming majority of the forum, it was one problem after another. IRIS didn't work right, noisy, some artifacts, 3D not working right for a DLP (some even said it was like a JVC in 3D). Native On/Off without the IRIS working limited by non-dynamic non-working IRIS on/off. Was this projector walloped by an Optoma hd8300, darn right it was... And if you were a 3D purist, the Benq w7000 walloped it because the hc7800's blacks really weren't ENOUGH of an improvement to counteract its weaknesses. That said, the firmware helped some, but it was still plagued with issues so I heard. Was the Sharp xxxxx walloped, some Sharps were...

Now the above is from what posters have been saying, I didn't run out and test one, but I didn't see too many experienced projector users end up keeping it for its purposes. It also didn't have nearly enough lumens in 3D, so the very strengths we wanted to have, it fell completely in the gutter.

We can also look at the RS-60, huge dissapointment in lumens and problems with the CMS, lamp issues, and other issues. Will the hc8000 be walloped, doubt it, I think they probably fixed it. Though at least with an RS-60 if you had a small high gain screen, it would produce an overall fabulous picture (issues not withstanding)...

Can some projectors wallop others, absolutely, especially when there are issues.
Edited by coderguy - 10/22/12 at 8:03pm

I'd agree other than the fact that he wasn't talking about other projectors. He clearly stated projectors in this shootout. In this case I think that's a pretty accurate statement. The only thing I would have added is; thus far. There will always be projectors that fall short. We'll see when the 4810 drops. I think JVC is going to be very careful about coming out with a projector that meets the hype after some of their latest debacles.

The Mits hc8000 is in the shootout as long as he is able to get one from AVS (he said he would), and we don't know all the info on these projectors yet. The reason we are here is just as much to let Zombie's keen eye and tests see if he sees anything out of the ordinary, at least that is why I am here. I am not here to know Sony's black levels, most of us could have probably guessed some improvement but not THAT much, just like the last past 5 years in contrast increases, it is almost always incremental, people just hype up the differences at first. Feature wise projectors improve pretty nicely, contrast wise it's a slow and painful process.

I agree the Sony and the JVC probably do not have BIG issues, but we don't know for sure until he has put them through the works. That said, I am looking forward to the Mits hc8000 review, I always loved the image the old Mits DLP's put out and wished they could tweak them to a higher price point, they tried but failed. Also we don't know what all projectors Zombie will test, some forum members might even provide him other units eventually.
Edited by coderguy - 10/22/12 at 8:59pm