Sony HW50 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5020 / JVC RS55 / JVC RS 46 / JVC RS4810 / JVC RS56 Mini-shootout... - Page 34

Originally Posted by Joseph Clark 

Ghosting in the JVC panels is due to the inability of the LCoS panels to refresh fast enough to get a "clean" image on the screen when the shutter glasses open for the right and left eyes. RF technology won't change that - only faster panels.

Originally Posted by Deja Vu 

I'd certainly be interested.
Here's an article on parallax and screen size for those interested:
http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-perils-of-parallax
One other thing -- if you're in a completely darkened room and can't tell where your screen plane actually is then putting a depth cue where your screen is ( plug in a night light or something) so you will have the cue you need to judge just how far in or out of the screen the object appears to be should be helpful.
I used a screen depth cue the other night while watching an underwater 3D film and the lead diver actually appeared to be swimming out in the room while those following him were various distances behind him. This was a great example of both negative and positive parallax.

Originally Posted by xb1032 

For those interested, ProjectorReviews has their comparisons on the 5020 vs other projectors including the HW50ES:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epson/home-cinema-5020/competitors.php#2

Originally Posted by xb1032 

For those interested, ProjectorReviews has their comparisons on the 5020 vs other projectors including the HW50ES:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epson/home-cinema-5020/competitors.php#2

Originally Posted by DaGamePimp 

I did a quicky calibration of Living Room mode on my cousins 5020 for gaming use (before we tested the lag and discovered it was slightly higher than THX/Cinema/Natural) and it is indeed very bright. The color that was the most out was Green and I did not bother correcting it (beyond luma) since the unit only had 20 some hours on the lamp and will drift. Using factory presets it's not bad by any means but not truly accurate either so I would be very skeptical of their claim that simply lowering the color temp yields a 'perfectly color balanced' image (I did drop the color temp as well during the cal).
Jason

Originally Posted by alebonau 

I dont know about 5020 but the epson 9000w which I have (predecessor to 6020) we found in thx eco setting was about as close to a calibration we performed. probably best out of box projector have come along. and is definitely a bonus I think for those who dont necessarily want to go down the calibration path be interesting to know if the new model epsons are the same in this regard

Originally Posted by ol2 

However the manual states:
During 3D projection, the following configuration menu functions cannot be changed.
Aspect (set to Normal)

Originally Posted by audiohobbit 

Yes, you also get this depth cue when showing a menu on screen, normally the menus are in screen plane.
Concerning popouts: The problem is that many movies or moviemakers don't use them correct. The object that comes out of the screen must not touch the screen frame! Otherwise the effect will be disturbed.
and the other thing is that the objects should not pop out too much, because then you get cross eyed.
third problem: The complete depth from front to back that is depicted in one frame should not be too large.
and there are many more rules that should be obeyed for good stereoscopic 3D.
Take Sammys Adventure for example: Many popouts BUT they seem to break the rules for S3D in nearly every scene...
I've one recommendation for some really good popout effects in a real-life film and thats the IMAX 3D documenatation "Legends of flight".
there are 3 scenes: 1. The nose of a Boeing Dreamliner comes out of the screen, so the Dreamliner parks in your living room..
2. The main gear of the Dreamliner (yes it's actually more a Boeing Dreamliner commercial than a real documentary...) is lowered and the huge tires come out of the screen
3. A harrier jet flies in front of a ship and some other harrier jets and it comes out of the screen partially.
and some more popouts..
Those are really really good popouts for my taste!
And on saturday I'm going to watch this IMAX 3D film in a REAL IMAX-cinema (the last one REAL IMAX 3D cinema in Germany btw..) and I'm curious what differences there are between the real IMAX experience and the screening of the 3D BD in my HT.
Finally: A 3D film has to be made for a specific screen size and viewing distance, strictly speaking. On different screen sizes and viewing distances the experience will be different. With 3D it is not the viewing angle that counts, it is really the actual size and viewing distance!
You can do one test for yourself: Show a 3D scene on screen and pause it. Then move forward towards the screen and backwards away from the screen and see what happens to the perceived depth in the scene. When increasing your viewing distance, the perceived depth in the scene also increases, when moving towards the screen, perceived depth gets smaller..

Originally Posted by zombie10k 

Hi, I'm using a display 3 calibrated by Tom Huffman @ Chromapure. I use velcro to hold the glasses over the sensor for the grayscale calibration. I'm basically compensating the best I can for the tint color of the glasses.
One of our members made a 3D ISO with 30, 80, 100 screens so the projector is running in 1080/24 Frame Packed mode. I know this can also be done with the built in 2D -> 3D conversion and a regular 2D calibration disk, but I wanted to keep the conversion out of it just in case there is something different vs. true 3D mode.
I watched a number of movies shot in Native 3D and the flesh tones looks pretty good with this setup.

Originally Posted by Deja Vu 

Bottom line Art seems to think the Epson and Sony are really close; however, if pricing etc. were equal he'd take the Sony. For some reason he keeps repeating that the SR and FI are active for 3D on the Epson. Does Epson have special projectors for reviewers only?

Originally Posted by ol2 

When I read stuff in this review that we know is not true, I question the accuracy of the whole thing. Specifically he states:
For the Epson 5020 "the dynamic iris, CFI, Super-resolution... This year, those dynamic features are all available in 3D."
However the manual states:
During 3D projection, the following configuration menu functions cannot be changed.
Aspect (set to Normal), Noise Reduction (set to Off), Sharpness, Split Screen, Overscan (set to Off),
Super-resolution, Frame Interpolation (set to Off)
and I believe others here have verified that CFI, SR etc do not work in 3D.
IMO, stuff like this, all the cut and paste errors, inconsistencies between reviews, missing key information etc really diminish the value of these reviews.

Originally Posted by fpr 

Zombie,
Have you tried the HW50 with RF Monster Vision glasses? How are the Monster Vision glasses regarding ghosting with the HW50 compared to the original Sony glasses?

If I remember correctly with the HW30 was a big difference in favor of the Monster Vision.

Best regards

Originally Posted by func 

Regarding the BUZZ from the IR emitter, according to Sony it's supposed to be an issue with the first 200 projectors. Maybe you guys could check your serial numbers to see if any 200+ projectors have the buzz? I should be getting mine this week and will check it on my unit, I'll let you know what i find.

Originally Posted by audiohobbit 

You can do one test for yourself: Show a 3D scene on screen and pause it. Then move forward towards the screen and backwards away from the screen and see what happens to the perceived depth in the scene. When increasing your viewing distance, the perceived depth in the scene also increases, when moving towards the screen, perceived depth gets smaller..

Originally Posted by zombie10k 

The Mitsubishi HC8000 should be here tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Deja Vu 

Does Epson have special projectors for reviewers only?

Originally Posted by Joseph Clark 

Remember what we say about "rules." They're made to be broken. This has been true throughout history (the earth is the center of the universe) and especially art history (Gainsborough's Blue Boy - that the main color in a painting cannot be "cold"). It's a rule only as long as we agree that it's a rule.
James Cameron is at odds with traditional stereographers in his insistence that "there is no screen." He believes that not only are "edge violations" OK, the rule against using them in a 3D movie should be broken as often as possible. Without them, storytelling in 3D films is severely compromised, if not impossible. Martin Scorsese must agree, because in his first 3D film, "Hugo," you can't go more than a few seconds without encountering them. The same is true for "Avatar." They're EVERYWHERE. The only exception to his anti-rule is when an object comes directly out of the screen toward the viewer. Then the old rule holds and edges must be considered.
The funny thing is that I never hear people who aren't "traditional" stereographers complain about edge violations. After shooting my own 3D for over a year and a half (even if I am just a hobbyist), I tend more and more to agree with Cameron. Avatar is probably the best example of edge violations not mattering to the average person. Billions of dollars at the box office are a fairly convincing testimonial to that "truth."
Anyway, spotting edge violations (and "pop-outs") is usually easy. With the 3D glasses off, look for an object that isn't a double image. That's the point of convergence for the shot. Technically speaking, anything that's in front of that object is in front of the screen. Anything behind it is behind the screen. Any object in front of the screen "pops out" and anything behind the screen is beyond the "window." Once you know that, it's just a matter of degree. Greater "pop-out" means that the object gets more "in your face," like the potato cod shot most of us have seen, or a knife or spear that comes at us. Any object that is in front of the screen but hits the frame is technically an "edge violation."
Traditionalists hold that any object that rests in front of the screen can't "come into contact with" the screen edges, or the brain won't be able to "process" it. It seems to be both behind and in front of the edge at the same time, which makes no sense. Cameron doesn't buy into this. People don't seem to have any trouble dealing with the visual inconsistency. From the point of view of a traditional 2D filmmaker, it's easy to see how difficult it would be to move the camera around if you constantly had to eliminate edge violations. There would be certain shots that you simply couldn't do. I see no reason to limit 3D any more than 2D in this regard. Of course, it's up to each person to agree or not, and in the end it won't matter much because filmmakers will do what they want. I don't think that's a bad thing. 2D film isn't "real," and I see no reason to demand that 3D film be real, either. Breaking the "rules" need not make a 3D film less enjoyable. That's not to say that all 3D rules are bad. Limiting the separation of the left/right eyes to about 2.5 - 3 inches makes sense. Much more than that and you practically guarantee that some people will not be able to tolerate it. It can cause headaches or nausea in those who are susceptible. (Ironically, it's also a good justification for edge violations, in a round about way.) IMO, a reason that "pop-outs" don't show up in films more often is that they can begin to look gimmicky. 3D is having a hard enough time shedding that stereotype (pun intended).
I have more but that's probably too much already.

Originally Posted by Deja Vu 

I would think that Sammy's Adventure takes the cake when it comes to breaking the rules! An awful lot of negative parallax in this movie. I agree that breaking the rules when needed is the way to go. I think the depth cue I placed by the screen has more to do with me seeing much more out into the room "pop out" than changing the screen size on the Oppo. Chapter 5 in Sammy where the snake comes a long way into the room is an excellent example of really pushing negative parallax (pop out). I switched the image size from small to large and it didn't seem to do much (snake scene both with large and small screen setting -- a lot of stretch into the room with both settings), but knowing exactly where the screen was allowed me to judge just how much negative parallax was being used. I now have a much greater appreciation of how much in-front-of-the-screen action there is in some movies and how little in others, although most of those have a few in-your-face moments.

Originally Posted by zombie10k 

is that the same RS45 with the noticeable blue tint on low APL scenes?
I think you meant FI (not DI) on the Sony 3D. On the 5020, I would rather have seen the FI instead of the DI since imo it really doesn't do much. Also the Super Resolution missing in 3D is a mistake that should be fixed in a firmware update if possible. The RC on the HW50 in 3D mode looks very good once it's tamed down a bit. (factory = 50, my preference is 25-30 here).

Originally Posted by rufilo 

In Europe, 'Light Power Edition' package is only available for epson EH-TW9100 (6020 equivalent).
When properly calibrated, LPE allows decent colors with extra lumens, which can be quite relevant for living room environment and 3D.
Maybe a dumb question but.... Since 5020 lacks color gamut control, can LPE still be properly calibrated? Does color gamut control worth the extra paying?
Is anyone using LPE with 5010/5020?
Thanks and Cheers.

Originally Posted by sarangiman 

Great point audiohobbit. Unfortunately on my 120" screen at 1.15x SW viewing distance, the 3D effect isn't dramatic. If I step back a few feet, it really helps. As you walk closer to the screen, the 3D effect completely vanishes.
Not surprising, since an object far away that has considerable parallax disparity will register as depth cues.
Question: since I don't have that much 3D effect from my viewing distance, will shrinking the image dramatically help (as much as sitting further back does)? I suppose I should test myself, just lazy about readjusting focus perfectly afterwards (adjusting focus is a battle with the HW50, given its nonuniformity).

Originally Posted by zombie10k 

I forgot to mention, turning down the 3D brightness setting 1 notch below maximum can make a big difference on any ghosting. It will lower the brightness just a bit, but it's a good trade-off.
also, you can get kid's glasses that are a good fit for kids 6-12. Search amazon or ebay for Sony BR50 3D glasses.
You will need these filters for it to work with the HW50:
https://www.servicesplus.sel.sony.com/sony-part-number-145831421.aspx
1 'kit' per pair of glasses. With the filters, the BR50's work perfect with the HW50.

Originally Posted by sarangiman 

FWIW, here's a comparison of pixel level detail/SDE for an Epson 8350 vs. Sony HW50