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Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread - Page 6

post #151 of 234
Great review archaea
post #152 of 234
Agreed, another great write up. It looks like the LMS 5400's aren't better than Caps or Submersives just different right? As for why the Cap feels more tactile yet doesn't dig as deep I think it's because it has such massive output around tuning and tuning is low enough to still have more feel than sound. It was quite obvious in my room that the Caps do the Die Hard 4 machine gun scene better that the Submersives as far as shaking me and my couch, and I'm guessing that scene has content below what the Caps can play but it doesn't matter because the content around 20hz the Caps really shine and it still shakes the crap out of you.

Sounds like everyone loved the Noesis speakers, especially for movies. Jedimastergrant told me yesterday that it literally sounded like a gun went off in the room, and no other speaker he has heard has been able to pull that off (open range scene).

I liked seeing the ULF blind comparison, I think it would be cool if there was a blind GTG that was solely focused on ULF's and how much they really matter, and at what frequency you start to get diminishing returns - my guess is somewhere between 10-15 hz.
post #153 of 234
Could the submersives have been compressing by that point, and therefore have had less output at the "visceral" point (20-30hz) than the captivators had? It wouldn't surprise me if both were compressing at those insane levels smile.gif
post #154 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Agreed, another great write up. It looks like the LMS 5400's aren't better than Caps or Submersives just different right? As for why the Cap feels more tactile yet doesn't dig as deep I think it's because it has such massive output around tuning and tuning is low enough to still have more feel than sound. It was quite obvious in my room that the Caps do the Die Hard 4 machine gun scene better that the Submersives as far as shaking me and my couch, and I'm guessing that scene has content below what the Caps can play but it doesn't matter because the content around 20hz the Caps really shine and it still shakes the crap out of you.
Sounds like everyone loved the Noesis speakers, especially for movies. Jedimastergrant told me yesterday that it literally sounded like a gun went off in the room, and no other speaker he has heard has been able to pull that off (open range scene).
I liked seeing the ULF blind comparison, I think it would be cool if there was a blind GTG that was solely focused on ULF's and how much they really matter, and at what frequency you start to get diminishing returns - my guess is somewhere between 10-15 hz.

Yeah like 14.99999Hz tongue.gifwink.gif
post #155 of 234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Agreed, another great write up. It looks like the LMS 5400's aren't better than Caps or Submersives just different right? As for why the Cap feels more tactile yet doesn't dig as deep I think it's because it has such massive output around tuning and tuning is low enough to still have more feel than sound. It was quite obvious in my room that the Caps do the Die Hard 4 machine gun scene better that the Submersives as far as shaking me and my couch, and I'm guessing that scene has content below what the Caps can play but it doesn't matter because the content around 20hz the Caps really shine and it still shakes the crap out of you.
Sounds like everyone loved the Noesis speakers, especially for movies. Jedimastergrant told me yesterday that it literally sounded like a gun went off in the room, and no other speaker he has heard has been able to pull that off (open range scene).
I liked seeing the ULF blind comparison, I think it would be cool if there was a blind GTG that was solely focused on ULF's and how much they really matter, and at what frequency you start to get diminishing returns - my guess is somewhere between 10-15 hz.

Carp - IMO it's hard to make an accuate statement fully comparing the LMS pair to the other big boys since they appeared to be severely amp limited. I'd love to get together with Austin again when he has them powered properly and when he gets his box design nailed down and compare them to my Caps 1 on 1 in a detailed listening session. With that said,I thought they still sounded great and the sound quality was clean at all but the highest levels of playback.

As far as the Caps vs. Submersives for music - First off, I realize I'm biased being a JTR owner but I do consider myself to be realtively open minded when it comes to really any offering out there. Honestly, and I may be in the minority here but I thought the Caps sounded every bit as good as the Submersives in the UNCAPPED (not volume limited) music section. I couldn't imagine those kick drums during the John Mayer clip being any more articulate or authoriative during the Caps audition. I actually just got down re-eqing my room a few hours ago and was listening to a Rock and roll hall of fame blu ray and the sound still astounds me.

One update for those who were in my room - I now have 4 side treatments hung, I took down all the can lights in the main area and sealed the trim rings/enclosures which took care of a large percentage of the unwanted vibrations. The room sounds tremendously better now and I'm really looking forward to having you guys over again sometime soon.

Some pictures - PS my camera and camera skills are weak. mad.gif

Basementtheateranddeftechforsale136.jpg
Basementtheateranddeftechforsale137.jpg
post #156 of 234
All I've learned from this is that Archaea finally realizes that sealed subs are the best.

I plan on trucking mine down to KC for one of your GTGs once I get mine sealed properly. smile.gif
post #157 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

All I've learned from this is that Archaea finally realizes that sealed subs are the best.

Even with a gun to his head I doubt Johnathan would ever admit acoustic suspension trumps bass reflex. smile.gif
post #158 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - IMO it's hard to make an accuate statement fully comparing the LMS pair to the other big boys since they appeared to be severely amp limited. I'd love to get together with Austin again when he has them powered properly and when he gets his box design nailed down and compare them to my Caps 1 on 1 in a detailed listening session. With that said,I thought they still sounded great and the sound quality was clean at all but the highest levels of playback.
As far as the Caps vs. Submersives for music - First off, I realize I'm biased being a JTR owner but I do consider myself to be realtively open minded when it comes to really any offering out there. Honestly, and I may be in the minority here but I thought the Caps sounded every bit as good as the Submersives in the UNCAPPED (not volume limited) music section. I couldn't imagine those kick drums during the John Mayer clip being any more articulate or authoriative during the Caps audition. I actually just got down re-eqing my room a few hours ago and was listening to a Rock and roll hall of fame blu ray and the sound still astounds me.
One update for those who were in my room - I now have 4 side treatments hung, I took down all the can lights in the main area and sealed the trim rings/enclosures which took care of a large percentage of the unwanted vibrations. The room sounds tremendously better now and I'm really looking forward to having you guys over again sometime soon.
Some pictures - PS my camera and camera skills are weak. mad.gif

You may be in the minority, but I'm with ya brutha. I stated the same thing in my review a few posts back. Even though it defies logic (ported vs sealed), to you and me, the Caps sounded cleaner, more accurate and articulate for music that the Seaton rig on that day, in spite of the HPF issue the Caps were dealing with.
Could it have something to do with the rear firing driver on the Subm's being too close to the rear wall? Does Mark state this is ok to do? This may be a wrong assumption but were they that close to the wall since we were trying to keep all the subs the same distance from the mlp but Mark would prefer the Subm's to be further away?

p.s. Did you do anything with those shades? I think even they were rattling a few times during the gtg eek.gif
post #159 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - IMO it's hard to make an accuate statement fully comparing the LMS pair to the other big boys since they appeared to be severely amp limited. I'd love to get together with Austin again when he has them powered properly and when he gets his box design nailed down and compare them to my Caps 1 on 1 in a detailed listening session. With that said,I thought they still sounded great and the sound quality was clean at all but the highest levels of playback.
As far as the Caps vs. Submersives for music - First off, I realize I'm biased being a JTR owner but I do consider myself to be realtively open minded when it comes to really any offering out there. Honestly, and I may be in the minority here but I thought the Caps sounded every bit as good as the Submersives in the UNCAPPED (not volume limited) music section. I couldn't imagine those kick drums during the John Mayer clip being any more articulate or authoriative during the Caps audition. I actually just got down re-eqing my room a few hours ago and was listening to a Rock and roll hall of fame blu ray and the sound still astounds me.
One update for those who were in my room - I now have 4 side treatments hung, I took down all the can lights in the main area and sealed the trim rings/enclosures which took care of a large percentage of the unwanted vibrations. The room sounds tremendously better now and I'm really looking forward to having you guys over again sometime soon.
Some pictures - PS my camera and camera skills are weak. mad.gif
Basementtheateranddeftechforsale136.jpg
Basementtheateranddeftechforsale137.jpg

What did you use to seal the can lights?
post #160 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I liked seeing the ULF blind comparison, I think it would be cool if there was a blind GTG that was solely focused on ULF's and how much they really matter, and at what frequency you start to get diminishing returns - my guess is somewhere between 10-15 hz.

I was a subject in this test. Test conditions were good, 2 folks knew and the rest of the room had no idea what they were doing. It was blind but not double blind. On the first piece, I had no doubt in my mind which one had the ULF and which one had the filter (statistically the group proved able to tell). On the second piece I was not sure, it had less ULF, but my sneaky suspicion was right(the group proved not so sure, but was slightly leaning in the right direction).

After a life + a day full of high end ULF output, no there are not physical concerns, thinking so at ref SPL + 10 is just wrong. Any freq at ref + 50 is a problem.

ULF adds to the experience, cost, displeasure of those close not watching, and to the pleasure of me. It is not vital to a system, but if thinking about going ULF or expensive cables...... one of them does something, the other does too. The choice between them is not luck.
post #161 of 234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by realjetavenger View Post

p.s. Did you do anything with those shades? I think even they were rattling a few times during the gtg eek.gif

They are on the list of priorities right behind ceiling treatment/insulation! Currently in the process of trying to convince the wife to move to a thicker curtain in lieu of the wood blinds. Only thing that sucks is they are less than 3 months old. frown.gif
post #162 of 234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

What did you use to seal the can lights?

A combination of clear silicone, duct tape, and (rubber) insulation. tongue.gif A DRASTIC improvement, but there are still some others to chase down, heh.
post #163 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by realjetavenger View Post

p.s. Did you do anything with those shades? I think even they were rattling a few times during the gtg eek.gif

They are on the list of priorities right behind ceiling treatment/insulation! Currently in the process of trying to convince the wife to move to a thicker curtain in lieu of the wood blinds. Only thing that sucks is they are less than 3 months old. frown.gif


Did they start rattling at 127 dB as we neared towards 129 dB? biggrin.gif

...just thinking you may have a hard time convincing the wife of the necessity of such an "upgrade"
post #164 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

A combination of clear silicone, duct tape, and (rubber) insulation. tongue.gif A DRASTIC improvement, but there are still some others to chase down, heh.

Thanks, I'm on it ... smile.gif
post #165 of 234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Thanks, I'm on it ... smile.gif

The best bang for my effort was simply dampening the trim ring against the housing by wrapping it in duct tape. Simple, yet it deadened the trim ring completely and stopped the rattling. After wrapping, it was a very snug fit and there was no longer play between the trim and the housing. MUCH better.
post #166 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

All I've learned from this is that Archaea finally realizes that sealed subs are the best.

I plan on trucking mine down to KC for one of your GTGs once I get mine sealed properly. smile.gif

ha! nice try!!!

Where did I say that? I've long since said sealed can be a bit better for music, (two of my favorite musical subs that I've spent a lot of time with were sealed --- my servo controlled Jamo D7 Sub pair and the Seaton Submersive HP) but overall I'm still a ported sub enthusiast because I think movies are significantly better on a quality ported sub. I prioritze movies over music.
You must have forgot this post
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1368326/subfest-2011-huskeromaha-and-desertdomes-subwoofer-showdown/0_20#post_21112330

Here are some pretty equivalent subs --- often discussed at avsforum as to which is better.
I've heard these lineups in the same room at meets and my preference seems to always fall on the same side.
KC 2011 meet - HSU VTF-15H and SVS PB12+ (ported subs) vs. Epik Empire (sealed) - I preferred ported.

Omaha 2011 meet - Chase Home Theater 18.1 VS (ported) vs. Chase Home Theater 18.2 (sealed) - I preferred ported

(A half dozen meets (pair vs pair or single vs single)) - JTR Captivator (ported) vs Seaton Submersive HP (sealed) - I preferred ported Though with three Submersives vs. two Captivators like at PA meet - I'll give the nod to the Submersives as best of show.

PA 2012 meet - Rythmik FV15HP (ported) vs Rythmik E15 (sealed) - I preferred ported


All of this is a bit tongue in cheek, because I didn't participate in the blind testing in the 2012 KC Blind meet and so haven't actually proven my loyalty to ported subwoofers in blind listening. BUT, At least I haven't dis-proven my loyalty to sealed as may be the case for some I'm in immediate correspondence with. wink.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

All I've learned from this is that Archaea finally realizes that sealed subs are the best.

Even with a gun to his head I doubt Jonathan would ever admit acoustic suspension trumps bass reflex. smile.gif

lol....

Truly -- If I really found out I liked sealed better I'd admit it...

...with head hung low...

and out of earshot of HuskerOmaha. tongue.gif



DD and Carp setup a blind test for me, and prove me wrong!
Edited by Archaea - 11/6/12 at 11:27am
post #167 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

DD and Carp setup a blind test for me, and prove me wrong!
If you're ever in sunny SoCal I'd LOVE to give that a try! tongue.gif
post #168 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

If you're ever in sunny SoCal I'd LOVE to give that a try! tongue.gif

Given the nature of sealed it's apparent that the lowend needs to be boosted to achieve a flat response. I'm not saying anyone in here disagrees with that. However, comparing the Omnimic screenshots it appears as though the DSP on the Submersives offered plenty of low-end grunt when directly compared to the LMS pair and the JTR (which seemed to roll off prematurely). I would venture to say that at nomimal playback volumes the Sumbersives sounded incredible playing the uber ULF content. Especially something like a sweep.

Sounds like this popalock guy should have came better prepared with some DSP settings on that iNuke or not went full re-tard with the remote and just tried find the limits of clean playback.

Three questions, two of which seem to have been answered.

1. Who perfomed best and cleanest at max volume.
Clearly the x 3 submersives with approximately 1,060in^2 of cone area.

2. Who sounded the cleanest at all volumes?
From my reading this thread, the Submersives were the only one of the "heavy hitters" that had an active DSP properly dialed-in, correct? So, score one more for the Submersives.

3. Now for the real question. If the JTR Subs and the TC Sounds subs had an active DSP set to their optimal settings, how would they compare?
No one seems to know...
Edited by enterthedragon - 11/5/12 at 5:38am
post #169 of 234
It seems simple to me, the sealed subs always sound as good or better until they crank the volume. The reason for this is the Caps will play much louder at or near tune which always gives it more tactile sensations. I have been saying this for a while now, the Caps are probably 10-12 dBs more powerful than the submersives around tune, and that difference will always be noticed. The only time a sealed system will start getting the edge is when it can produce the same spl at or around tune, one more submersive would have done it. Now if you just run at reference max and each system has enough without compression for reference then the sealed with the ULF becomes known. You guys keep comparing dual caps it will never be fair as pure spl is concerned, unless you get enough sealed subs. The LMS 5400 produces 108+ dBs at 20hz so duals will produce 116-117 dBs. Well, that is one cap at 20hz so duals gives it a huge advantage. This obviously makes the Cap a no brainer if below 15hz does not matter to you. If it does and you can't spend the money DIY is your only option.
post #170 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It seems simple to me, the sealed subs always sound as good or better until they crank the volume. The reason for this is the Caps will play much louder at or near tune which always gives it more tactile sensations. I have been saying this for a while now, the Caps are probably 10-12 dBs more powerful than the submersives around tune, and that difference will always be noticed. The only time a sealed system will start getting the edge is when it can produce the same spl at or around tune, one more submersive would have done it. Now if you just run at reference max and each system has enough without compression for reference then the sealed with the ULF becomes known. You guys keep comparing dual caps it will never be fair as pure spl is concerned, unless you get enough sealed subs. The LMS 5400 produces 108+ dBs at 20hz so duals will produce 116-117 dBs. Well, that is one cap at 20hz so duals gives it a huge advantage. This obviously makes the Cap a no brainer if below 15hz does not matter to you. If it does and you can't spend the money DIY is your only option.

Thats why quad UXLs vs dual Caps should be pretty dang close.

I just wanted to see what Archaea would come up with in his defense. He always has all of these nice links and documentation. smile.gifrolleyes.gif
post #171 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Thats why quad UXLs vs dual Caps should be pretty dang close.
I just wanted to see what Archaea would come up with in his defense. He always has all of these nice links and documentation. smile.gifrolleyes.gif

That would be a fair comparsion!
post #172 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The reason for this is the Caps will play much louder at or near tune which always gives it more tactile sensations. I have been saying this for a while now, the Caps are probably 10-12 dBs more powerful than the submersives around tune, and that difference will always be noticed.

Question for ya MK. If a system is calibrated FLAT and has enough headroom for a given listening level, how would the Caps have an advantage (around its tune) versus a submersive?? It wouldnt correct?
post #173 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Given the nature of sealed it's apparent that the lowend needs to be boosted to achieve a flat response. I'm not saying anyone in here disagrees with that. However, comparing the Omnimic screenshots it appears as though the DSP on the Submersives offered plenty of low-end grunt when directly compared to the LMS pair and the JTR (which seemed to roll off prematurely). I would venture to say that at nomimal playback volumes the Sumbersives sounded incredible playing the uber ULF content. Especially something like a sweep.
Sounds like this popalock guy should have came better prepared with some DSP settings on that iNuke or not went full re-tard with the remote and just tried find the limits of clean playback.
Three questions, two of which seem to have been answered.
1. Who perfomed best and cleanest at max volume.
Clearly the x 3 submersives with approximately 1,060in^2 of cone area.
2. Who sounded the cleanest at all volumes?
From my reading this thread, the Submersives were the only one of the "heavy hitters" that had an active DSP properly dialed-in, correct? So, score one more for the Submersives.
3. Now for the real question. If the JTR Subs and the TC Sounds subs had an active DSP set to their optimal settings, how would they compare?
No one seems to know...

I comletely agree with this man....looks like all questions above points more towards the Submersive, which is what I said before a few pages back judging by the reviews so far. But all in all....these 2 subs have their weakness and strengths. Its a given. You have to choose your poison!.

That said, Id love to hear the Caps one day smile.gif
post #174 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Question for ya MK. If a system is calibrated FLAT and has enough headroom for a given listening level, how would the Caps have an advantage (around its tune) versus a submersive?? It wouldnt correct?

As long as the submersive can play the max volume without compressing than it won't be noticed. See, I single submersive will put out what at 20hz? Is it enought to match a single 38mm x-max 18? People say the single CapS1 has as much output as a submersive so the LMS will have more. Of course until they are tested by Ricci it is all guessing.
post #175 of 234
Archaea-

"I find it very impressive that one channel had an HPF at 17hz engaged and the other had no HPF engaged and yet we never heard the unprotected driver sound excursion limited or make a mechancial bottoming out sound, even when tripping the internal circuit of a 5000 watt Crown amp. That little observation speaks volumes to the raw capability of these drivers. We were running torture test clips with the AVR closing in on +8dB and +10 dB above reference at some points with the subs 8dB hot and the unprotected Cap driver never audibly cried mercy due to physical excursion limits.

As mentioned during the meet day audition Andrew managed to trip the XLS-5000's internal amp 20 amp breaker, so we had to take a moment to reset that. The previous night while testing we had tripped the monster power surge protector, so we took that out of the loop and plugged directly into the wall. Immediately after starting up the demo material again we threw the 20amp dedicated circuit the XLS-5000 was drawing from. HA Three ways proven that the Captivator drivers can gobble up that Crown amp's power!"

So as you guys were getting up to 129db peaks and you had no hpf on one of the drivers below tune. The amounts of distortion from that driver had to of been very high. Also this unprotected driver would have been passing a lot through approaching DC in those punishing movie clips, making it much easier to pop breakers. It does speak to the level of punishment that driver can take, thats for sure. Addition: it also makes me wonder just how much power that crown has below 20hz, as 2500 watts below tune would bring most any driver to physical excursion limits.

Also when you say when subs run 8 db hot and comment that subs were still above mains. The subs would have to be 18db+ into compression (depending on frequency) before the mains would be louder. If its even getting close you are far into compression. To me this is like watching a show like "The Voice" and commenting on which singer sounds better when they are being repeatably hit with a stick.

Anyways looks like a blast though, have enjoyed reading the attendees comments, and hope more will be shared!
Edited by Luke Kamp - 11/5/12 at 9:17am
post #176 of 234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post

which is what I said before a few pages back judging by the reviews so far.
That said, Id love to hear the Caps one day smile.gif

If you're looking at the reviewers comments (including my own) one has to keep in mind that in many cases (including the LMS vs. Caps vs. Submersives) it was not always a level playing field. In terms of the heavy hitters, here's what we're looking at:

2 x LMS5400's in DIY boxes with Inuke6000 = likely under $2600 invested
2 x Ported passive Caps + Crown xls5000 = $3600 invested street price plus shipping on the subs
3 x Submersive HPs $2199 each plus shipping including discounts for multiples = $6600 plus shipping

Please do keep in mind we are talking significantly different price points here.
post #177 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Question for ya MK. If a system is calibrated FLAT and has enough headroom for a given listening level, how would the Caps have an advantage (around its tune) versus a submersive?? It wouldnt correct?

Great observation. Seems like a contradiction.

I would venture to say, given the context of the discussion, that this comment was referencing the Cap without EQ shaping and that the Cap is "capable" of +12db of output at it's tuning fq maxed out.
post #178 of 234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Archaea-
"I find it very impressive that one channel had an HPF at 17hz engaged and the other had no HPF engaged and yet we never heard the unprotected driver sound excursion limited or make a mechancial bottoming out sound, even when tripping the internal circuit of a 5000 watt Crown amp. That little observation speaks volumes to the raw capability of these drivers. We were running torture test clips with the AVR closing in on +8dB and +10 dB above reference at some points with the subs 8dB hot and the unprotected Cap driver never audibly cried mercy due to physical excursion limits.
As mentioned during the meet day audition Andrew managed to trip the XLS-5000's internal amp 20 amp breaker, so we had to take a moment to reset that. The previous night while testing we had tripped the monster power surge protector, so we took that out of the loop and plugged directly into the wall. Immediately after starting up the demo material again we threw the 20amp dedicated circuit the XLS-5000 was drawing from. HA Three ways proven that the Captivator drivers can gobble up that Crown amp's power!"
So as you guys were getting up to 129db peaks and you had no hpf on one of the drivers below tune. The amounts of distortion from that driver had to of been very high. Also this unprotected driver would have been passing a lot through approaching DC in those punishing movie clips, making it much easier to pop breakers. It does speak to the level of punishment that driver can take, thats for sure. Addition: it also makes me wonder just how much power that crown has below 20hz, as 2500 watts below tune would bring most any driver to physical excursion limits.
!

Luke - When pushing some clips at full tilt there were definitely some complaints from the drivers and I had to back them down. They may or may not have been audible from all points of the room, but I did have to back the volume down at times. Granted these were at or above reference at this point, but there were a few unwelcome noises for sure.

Again regarding the HPF being engaged on only one channel - like I said before this was just my *assumption* as to why the curve was looking drastically different. The next day when playing around this was the only explanation I could come up with - this may or may not have been the culprit of the issue. I wanted this to be clear for the group as we didn't have any of the settings saved to review post-event so all we can do is guess at this point. frown.gif

As far as power below 20hz - I don't own any passive sealed subs to test the ultra lows, but I can tell you I've run sweeps up to 110+db with my caps and solid extension to 13-15hz. This includes some room gain of course but it does not appear to have a built in HPF at this point. At 10hz? Maybe, and I'll probably find out once I build something sealed.

Hope this helps clarify some things.
post #179 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Please do keep in mind we are talking significantly different price points here.

That's a whole other can of worms I'm going to enjoy watching some debate on...lol
post #180 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Great observation. Seems like a contradiction.
I would venture to say, given the context of the discussion, that this comment was referencing the Cap without EQ shaping and that the Cap is "capable" of +12db of output at it's tuning fq maxed out.

I was just saying that a ported 18 with 30 mm of x-max will have a big advantage at or near tune compared to a sealed 18 or 15's at the same frequency. How can a sub that does not go as low have more tactile feeling? The answer is either distortion below tune or more output where the bass exists, I would think it is the latter of the two. BTW, sealed and ported subs are built for different reasons and comparing the two is very difficult.
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