Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread - Page 2

FYI, I am giving my perspective and thoughts of the GTG rather than the traditional comments on each of the subs:

First off, a tremendous Thank you to Andrew for opening up his home and having us all over.

The experience:
This was my first GTG and it was a lot of fun.. There was obviously a ton of work and thought put into it by a lot of dedicated enthusiasts, and I am very appreciative of that.

To be honest I have to say I was completely unprepared though... I had a general idea of what to expect from reading other GTG threads, but WOAH… I totally could not handle the volume level… it was so far beyond my comfort level. I wore 32db nr earplugs the vast majority of the time and I was in complete shock that A) Most people didn’t even bother with earplugs for most of the auditions and B) We didn’t completely lose all sense of hearing..

I have ABSOLUTELY no idea how anyone was able to listen to all the subs. I feel like I'm gonna be partially deaf for the next week at least.

I had to take several long breaks and completely missed the SVS PC 20-39, and Dual Dayton DIY. I ran for the hills when Austin started really cranking the LMS5400; same with when they were cranking the Caps and the SubMs.. I went upstairs and enjoyed the earthquake at much more manageable volume and kept grinning as the kitchen and laundry room floor was shaking wildly beneath my feet. If Andrew had had any of his cupboard doors open, I am certain there would have been plenty of broken plates and glasses..

Although it is customary, I think I will skip giving my observations on each individual sub I heard; the posts above already have given lots of good detail and nuances on each of the subs and provide more useful information than my observations. In general I thought all of the ones I heard were very impressive; with the dual LMS5400s, dual Caps, and triple SubMs making me fear for permanent hearing loss and the entire neighborhood worrying about the unexpected earthquakes that were happening..

In terms of the auditioning process, I would have preferred a much lower number of clips played per sub as it was hard for me to keep track of them and compare how they sounded to when they were played with the other subs. I would have also preferred being able to see the actual video of the movie clips rather than any of the graphs as just hearing the clips threw me off a bit. However, the biggest thing for me was the volume- I would have enjoyed having stuff played at much more reasonable levels and not having to use earplugs, although obviously it’s YMMV as most didn’t have to….


The upstairs set up:
I was more vested in this (due to me bringing my Arx A5 towers) than the subs even though it was sub GTG and ended up spending a fair amount of time upstairs. I was really curious to hear what others thought of them but it was tough catching a good time to play them at louder levels since it would interfere with the sub auditions. The longest amount of time people heard them at moderate levels was around 7pm or so during the dinner/ pizza break.

I think it’s safe to say folks were impressed because there were quite a few times where people had to go up to the towers as they weren’t sure if they were playing, or if the JTR Noesis speakers were… I'd love to hear more of what people's thoughts are though.
All of the A5 listening was pretty informal; it would have been nice to do something slightly more formal. I think maybe they did later in the night with the KRK Rokits and the Noesis speakers after I had already left with the A5s but I’m not sure. I also found that the Arx A5 towers seemed to blend much better with the single HP SubM than the two Epik Empires, but I am biased as I use an HP SubM myself at home…


Food & Drinks: I am a bit of a foodie so I heartily enjoyed the pulled pork and likely had more Chimay than anybody else at the GTG.. Thank you for bringing that! Plenty of good beers and delicious food, snacks..


Good People:
In general, it was great to be able to put faces to names, and names to forum aliases…

It was an honor to meet both Mark and Jeff as they are legendary gods on these forums- but I am very happy to confirm what others have said about meeting them; they are super knowledgeable, down to earth, willing to help, and never pushing their products like most salesmen would be. Near the beginning of the day after I had set up the A5s, I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, but it seemed like the vocals were a bit off or something on both the A5s and the JTR speakers; Mark was able to pinpoint the issue: wrong polarity on the left speaker due to a mix up on a wire splice between the receiver and speaker. Jeff actually helped me unpack my Arx A5s and graciously gave me more than my fair share of time playing them even though it cut directly into his time to demo his amazing, brand spanking new JTR Noesis speakers. Both Mark and Jeff are such humble, stand-up guys.

There were so many people involved deeply in getting each sub setup exact and precise- rush2049 must have spent an eternity getting all the content together in great lossless quality; while Archaea (and many others) was so meticulous in getting everything set up properly. Everybody helped in some way shape or form, and it made for a great event. It was really interesting to hear the wealth of knowledge being exchanged between various attendees even if plenty of it went over my head. It was awesome meeting everybody!

Andrew, thanks again for being a great host! And to all who came and made this an epic event!
Edited by Ryansboston - 10/22/12 at 9:45am

To reinforce how much of a bass head popalock is. He at one point asked if we could hook up the LMS, JTR Caps and subMs all at the same time
Edited by Sibuna - 10/22/12 at 2:20pm

I don't have time yet to post thoughts on the subs (I am currently replacing both the heater and A/C in the house right now and for the next few days but will try later tonight.)

However, I think popalock gets the most enthusiastic award. Anyone who pulls out a collapsible chair, parks it within 2-3 feet of the right main speaker and 4-6 feet from the subs and was sitting there for every test (and was that without ear plugs?) has to be the most enthusiastic.

Nice, very nice!

Clearly it's not easy putting something like this together and executing it well, great job on all fronts.

I noticed the acoustic summation positioning employed in the SubM array, good lookin' out. I'd like to experience the big coaxial compression JTRs sometime, a nice addition to the lineup. I've heard the drivers in use elsewhere (like in high dollar ~$50k speaker systems), they are special.

Nice job to all involved. I'm looking forward to reading more.


edt; as noted, the KRK Rockit series are phenomenal value, this area of semi-pro budget home recording monitors offers off the chart value. Seriously, what's availed to consumers in this highly competitive market segment (powered desktop monitors) is amazing
Edited by FOH - 10/22/12 at 10:44am

Now thats what im talking about!

No ear plugs and sitting by the speakers and during the entire demo, popalock was grinning ear to ear like a cheshire cat.

Just wanted to say it was worth the 9 hour drive there and back from Ontario Canada. Andrew and your wife a huge thank you for letting come on down to my first and hopefully many more sub events. I first arrived at Andrews house on Friday around 215pm first impression was what a nice house and a nice garage also. Go inside and wow tons of room. Takes about a minute to walk to basement from up stairs. His Ht set up was very nice tons of room for everyone what a perfect place to a have a GTG.

A big thanks to Archaea and Rush2049 for there efforts they made this event run smoothly with all there hard work in downsizing the audio track and omni mic work. And ironhead for is spectrum annalist graphs hope i got that right.

A big thank you for all the guys that brought food and drinks this also makes a event great who doesn't like to eat great food especially stuff you never had tried before. Like philly fresh pretzels, hogies from New jersey and the pulled pork one of my favorites as i like my protein.

It was nice meeting everyone this also makes a event nice. Finally got to meet Mark drilled him with tons of questions he is a perfectionist i watched him well he set up his cat 8's he would walk back and take a look at them them go back and adjust them then go back again. he even adjusted Jeffs new speaker line it had to be just right. A big thank you to Mark also for bring along my second submersive Hp and two more Cat 8's which i will use for my surround sides.One day i will get all my Seaton Speakers hooked up just had no time with working so many hours from work. I blow off two days of work to make the event.

Jeff from JTR it was also nice meeting you i herd so many good things about you and your products. His new speakers rock they sounded so nice and clear i think he hit a home run for this new line he brought out. Jeff and Mark drove even further than i did to attend to this GTG. This shows you what kind of people they are to take the time to come out to these events. Even though i bought Seaton products Jeff answered all my questions and was very nice to talk to.

I will post at a later time about the subs at the GTG I dont know much about this stuff but will try my best.

Mike

Hey guys, can that Ribbon speaker play reference without compression?

Jon Lane on the Arx site posted a article about the Arx tweeter http://www.theaudioinsider.com/forum/showthread.php?1757-About-Arx-Technology

I can say the A5 can get very loud and my ears give out before the tweeters do. But I have no idea at what level SPL wise I was at. But like someone said buying the Arx or most compact towers the owners concerns are probably not whether it can reach reference levels in a large living room or dedicated theater.

I should probably expand on my thoughts regarding the A5's, since I really didn't say much about them initially. While I didn't have sufficient time to get a full understanding of their character, I did at least hear them long enough to get familiar with the sound signature.

To me they sounded fairly neutral, warm even. I detected no harshness, sibilance or exaggerated highs. Andrews room is pretty big, so I didn't really expect them to be overly bright anyway. Even though the placement was less than ideal I still think the soundstage was pretty wide, especially in the midrange. They aren't afraid of volume either; we had them cranked up rather high, yet they didn't seem to lose their composure. They simply got louder, without losing their refinement.

The oak veneer looked fairly standard, but it seemed to be applied very well; corners were precise, no evidence of glue, no bubbles or visible imperfections. They were packed in tight though, so I wasn't able to give them a full inspection. The finish wasn't bad, just plain. From what I've been able to gather the real money has been spent on the drivers and crossover, which is fine by me. All-in-all, I was pretty impressed. I'm very glad Ryan brought them.


Agreed; the Rokits were a lot bigger then I thought they would be. They held up well when used in the downstairs room. At first they had too much treble and sounded shrill. Once that was attenuated using the amp controls I liked them a lot better.

The Neosis dwarfed everything though. They're definitely not going to disappear in your HT, unless it happens to be called Madison Square Garden. Just looking at them you knew they could play LOUD, and they certain can do that, but they are capable of more. The detail was surprisingly good with a crisp, clean overall sound. Think iron fist in a velvet glove...

I agree, i talked to Ben about them a bit and he said they are their newest model and preform much better than some of the other ones. I have seen people recommend them before and briefly looked at them myself. I was not expecting them to be as large as they are, hard to imagine someone putting them on their desk. Flat to 30 Hz where they cut off, sounded great after we brought down the highs, really thumped the bass well with no sub hooked up at all


Sure, just make sure someone brings some JTRs that will fit in my house


thanks, i shoudl have taken more. glad you are enjoying the beer i left you.
Edited by Sibuna - 10/22/12 at 2:32pm

Awesome Guys!

We need to get some of these Bass events going in the Pacific NW (problem is the big dogs of BASS would likely not be able to make it all the way here).

Thanks for the vids and pics, really helps refine the comments.

Jason

Don't dismiss the possibility so easily. Both Jeff and Mark proved they will go the extra mile to attend these types of events, so they may be amenable to heading west instead of south east. Jeff had to rush back Sunday to do a demo that evening, yet even with such time constraints he still showed up. And he never once seemed like he was in a rush to leave. I was very pleasantly surprised how personable they both were. Just keep Mark away from the Red Bulls...

All frequency responses are posted in formerly reserved comment #8

I've not had a chance to write up my comments yet. Perhaps tomorrow night.

Yes.

The faceplate acts as a heatsink at higher program output levels....it's machined aluminum and powder-coated black and it gets warm to the touch after long listening sessions at reference level.

Thanks for posting all those charts. I could tell that this was a lot of work for you guys doing all the measuring of the subs. Also, I know it was some work moving the subs in and out of position and you guys did that great as well. I have to imagine that some of you guys were sore the next day. Looking forward to reading more thoughts.

That looks like a lot of work. Thanks.

I have some questions from a relative newbie.

What is it in the graphs that shows one sub is superior to another?
Is it how flat the FR is?
Is it how much SPL you get at particular frequencies?

My situation is I want a sub that can play lower frequencies but I don't play at extremely loud volumes. I currently have 2 emotiva Ultra 12's that are supposed to drop off at around 30Hz, so I'm assuming I'm not hearing much at 30Hz and lower. I want a sub that can play the lower frequencies, but I don't want to pay for something that can shake the whole house. I guess I need a relatively low powered amp that can play down low and a corresponding driver/enclosure that can do so also. My Emotiva's easily supply enough SPL, just not at the lower frequencies. My goal is to get what I want while spending as little as possible. I don't care if the sub is ported or sealed. As long as it plays the notes properly. Any suggestions?

I too am an attendee that is not going to get too deep into performance comments, I'll leave that to the more experienced, they will review better and be more reliable than mine anyway. I did critique my own sub over in the Rythmik thread if anyone is interested in that. All the subs were great and I really liked how we ordered them (although I barely caught the tail end of the HSU, that could have been several slots back but it was already set up and ready to go). A sub would do very well, then, in general, you'd step up as the day progressed. I did not hear a single sub I did not care for all day. As extension and output increased so did cost for the most part, It's all about picking what is the right value for you, your room, your budget, and your significant other. I have to go dollar for dollar on furniture as I do the system and I am not a rich man:-) The SVS was not pushed at all, but at the level we heard it at I thought it sounded great. I wanted more output but no worries, it's not my sub ya know. It was really fun getting into the higher end duals+triple. wow...Wow, WOW, WOWOWOWOWOWOWOW :-) The LMS's, Cap's, and submersive's were a huge reason I made the trip and they did not disappoint, phenomenal. Definitely glad I got those nice ear plugs. I used em on the last 3 demo's and no ringing the next day.

Thank you Gorallia/Andrew for hosting. Handled it top notch, went all out in finishing the room, beautiful home, and was super fun to kick it with. His caps are the real deal, was blown away with them.

Favorite part of the day was meeting so many fun and knowledgeable people that pick the right hobbies :-) JTR Jeff and Mark Seaton are class acts the whole way, sharing knowledge, answering questions, and just having a goood time with us. The Caps, submersives+F2, Noesis, and catalyst are super high performance products that you simply can not go wrong with. The finish on the F2 was so beautiful. One of the best quotes of the day Jeff was referring to the Noesis and Captivators after their demo and said "watch out for the quiet guy". They will exceed any audible threshold a human could endure while sounding great doing it at low distortion. Jim Wilson and Archaea/Jonathan's vast experience and knowledge was impressive, enjoyable, and helpful. The time Rush put into the clips was no small feet, thank you. How did Popalock/Austin ninja save that speaker? Or keep his own box together for that matter? Ninja, thanks bud.

I won the PSA-XS15 AWESOME!!!! I have been in touch with Jim Farina with several PM's so we are working everything out, it's all good there. My review will be a month out because PLANE TO GERMANY LEAVES IN 5 HOURS!!!! Hitting Milan and Verona but mostly the stay will be around Stuttgart.

Thanks to everyone who enjoyed and praised the pulled pork. I love doing it but it makes it soo much for fun when folks really like it, I rarely cook for myself. I don't cook super often, but when I do, I'm not going to mess around about it:-) I'm happy to post recipe and technique if folks are really interested. Step 1, buy a big green egg. I'm telling you, that's really the key.

Best tip I can offer, if you have an opportunity to go to one of these events, do. I'm a noob that learned so much and had an absolute blast. I liked that we were not flat out scoring everything but I think our group was able to talk freely about pros and cons / strengths and weaknesses easily. We got to hear a large variety of nice subwoofers, but focused on the enjoyment, and that's what my system is all about to me.

Ohh yeah, I did hit Jim's (pepper steak, onions, mushrooms, and whiz) and Franklin fountain the next day. Delicious. Brought a cheese steak back for the wife too :-)

Sadly you can't judge this set of subs on this datapoint alone. If you could, someone might just think well the JTR Captivator pair turned in a slightly less impressive un-eq'ed frequency response than the single HSU ULS15 and so the ULS15 is a more capable preferable sub to a pair of JTR Captivators. Keep in mind that max SPL is not denoted at all in these frequency response captures, capability/headroom for additional EQ is not denoted in these frequency response graphs, depth of note at your preferred listening volume (compression) is not denoted in these charts. Every single one of these subs extends to 20hz with the exceptions of the SVS (artificially limited with minidsp HPF at 23hz) and the Definitive Tech SuperCube (plate amp dsp limited to 25hz). So most of these subs have your typical audible frequency responses covered well. What you are looking for is a nice flat line (relative to the other subs measured in the same room) that extends to the frequency you find important in your listening or research, and then you'll need to do separate research or read the subjective comments, or audition the subs to get an idea of whether the sub can keep up with your volume preferences. These frequency response captures do NOT capture max spl --- so you won't be able to tell from these frequency response graphs which sub gets loudest. These frequency response captures also do not capture compression testing, so you can't tell which of these subs will hold their charted (no eq'ed -- native frequency response) the longest without introducing compression of the lowest octaves. If you don't know what compression is I advise you check out data-bass.com and look at some excellent compression testing graphs that Josh Ricci has preformed. I did a quick google search and found a link at audioholics for a graph of a SVS SB12 NSD which easily shows what compression is.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/sb12-nsd-subwoofer/Gsb12nsdlongtermoutputcompression.jpg/image_view_fullscreen



In the above graphic each line represents a frequency response capture (like what we did - (50hz at 90dB)) at increasing volumes (spl) on the exact same sub. As you increase the SPL the less expensive subs will bow out on the lowest frequencies before the more expensive drivers will. Meaning your flat frequency response line starts looking more like a hill with the bottom octaves being left behind as you increase the demands on the subwoofer driver and amp. The result is that while your sound gets louder, the depth of note goes missing. You'll no longer feel the pant leg flapping effect of 20hz as the volume goes up to the higher spls, because the sub can't produce beyond a certain max spl at 20hz. The Frequency response does not raise accross the entire frequency response spectrum in parallel. So that's why data-bass is a particuarly great reference --- Josh does individual testing at many individual frequencies using test tones to determine max SPL with a standard level of distortion being the limiter. I can't hot link the graphic, but check out the compression testing on the LMS-5400 that popalock brought in. You'll notice that the frequency response graphs rise in parrallel the entire time. This indicates that as you turn it up --- you'll be hearing the same frequency response --- just louder! EXCELLENT! This is what a $900 subwoofer driver gets you over a $900 entire subwoofer system.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=3&mset=35

Going back to my original example between the HSU and the JTR Captivator pair. The HSU is going to start compressing very shortly after the frequency response levels we captured. So the frequency response captured will be accurate only immediately after you begin to turn the volume up. However the JTR Captivator drivers with their much more powerful 18" high excursion driver and greater headroom will retain their same recorded frequency response as you spin the volume dial far to the right. Hence the reason we encountered the broken light, bass trap failure, and intense tactile pant leg flapping effect recorded in subjective comment when listening to the JTR Caps.

Further examples of system testing and how compression testing looks can be found here.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&type=0


Compression testing would have been great to preform at this meet - but we didn't have time or desire as a group to go to those lengths of testing. The summary of this is that judging these subs by a single frequency response alone (as provided in post #8) is not advisable. However --- using them as a data point in your decision is valid - so long as you understand these graphs only represent naked un-eq'ed frequency response somewhat unique to Gorilla83's room. The FR graphs do show how these subs play relative to each other (again, without EQ) when taking advantage of fantastic room gain (Andrews room measures the best I've ever seen in artificially bringing up the left end of the graph with what's called room gain or boundary gain). When EQ enters the picture all of these subs frequency responses can be further flattened, and then you are limited by the subs max SPL at the lower end before compression occurs, as well as the somewhat controversial aspect of sound signature. I do believe in a bit of a sound signature uniqueness, but blind testing, as preformed in the 2012 KC Blind Meet tells me it isn't as strong a characteristic as we (I) might like to believe. One final point of note, while you can boost low points, and drop high points in the frequency response using EQ - you can't boost below the port tune of a ported sub, and you can't boost out of a room null, or phase cancellation, and boosting down low takes LOTS of power. I think I read somewhere in simplest terms that on average subwoofer frequencies below 30hz take 10x's as much power to produce as subwoofer frequencies above 70hz at the same SPL. These last notes deserve further elaboration but suffice to say you can't always flatten a frequency response in your room based on the subs placement and phase integration with other subs or your room itself. So EQ isn't necessarily a sure thing and a subs native frequency response graph is still of value.
Edited by Archaea - 10/23/12 at 6:45am

Hey Archaea, I know the answer is probably no, but did you take measurements of just the Seaton F2? I'm curious as to how the new F2 performs vs his traditional dual-opposed design. Or did anyone do listening tests with just the F2?

dstew100/ Dave, Great minds think alike. Your post pretty much described the GTG exactly how I had intended to, but better.
Congrats again on the win Dave, that is sweet.. look forward to seeing your review! Have a blast in Germany!

I think I can speak for everyone and say YESSSSSS, please give us the recipe and technique used... that stuff was AMAZING. It's crazy how fast the first batch went...

Nice!! I had hit Jim's the night before the GTG right at 2AM and got the last beer (Yuengling Lager of course!) they sold for the night

I can't agree with this more... I was likely the biggest noob there, with the most obnoxiously sensitive hearing by far... yet everyone was still friendly and man, it was a great experience and a ton of fun!!

Nice graphs and gives us a nice idea of what you guys would be hearing. Of course compression sweeps would have shown what subs play what but with that many subs there is no way. I think you guys did the best you could with all the subs you had in the amount of time you had. It sure was nice to see you guys listen to multiple sealed subs in the same room as others even without EQ boost down low. Most noticed the low end of TIH more. Trust me, once you boost the low end and make things as flat as possible(+/- 3 dBs) the low end becomes even more exciting which BTW is not some huge effect but subtle weight and energy that adds to the scene. I will say this one more time just to make sure everyone knows, that F2 is sexy!

That was an incredible explanation, but you probably just made KidHorns head explode when he read it...

I hope not!

I tried to simply the concepts as best I know. KidHorn, if it doesn't make sense keep reading at avsforum --- it'll eventually come together!


I should have - but didn't make it happen. The Submersive graphs all are inclusive of the three units. (six 15" drivers). I didn't take any seperate frequency response captures to compare F2 to Subm HP. For what it's worth, Mark Seaton, the designer says the only difference is cosmetic. We all know driver orientation can have some effect - especially above 70hz, but the Submersive HP and the F2 are identical in driver, internal volume, amp, and dsp ---- so really the only remaining factor is driver orientation which is very room specific, and the nuances we'd have measured in Gorilla83's room (above 70hz for instance) would have zero bearing on what we'd measure in the next audition room.

It made sense. Good explanation. Thanks for taking the time and effort.

As you turn up the volume, the FR curve changes. Typically what happens is you get a larger gain towards the higher frequencies than the lower. Most likely since lower frequencies require more power for a given change in SPL.

Another fantastic job, thanks for your sharing.
For an event involving multiple subs like this, level matching is a hard task to tackle with. I believe you have set a great example in this respect.
Inspired by your effort I come up with another idea please bear with me if this is not the public interest here.

What do you think of matching a 1/3 Oct smooth curve at, say 40-60Hz for aligning in a broader spectrum that every sub is able to work and to avoid being caught up in some LF anomaly in some other occasions?
Not every room is easy to deal with like the nice room you have here; by level matching a broader midbass range using the smoothed response curve may have its benefits.

That would be so cool!