Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread - Page 3

Originally Posted by craig john 


Dual Captivators in purple and triple Submersives in green.

How much different did these 2 sub systems sound? Even taking infrasonics and the whole sealed/ported issue out of the discussion, that's a 12 dB difference at 20 Hz. They had to *sound* completely different. Yet no one mentioned a big difference in their listening impressions. Or, were you all just deaf by that point?

Craig

Originally Posted by Archaea 



Remember the order of playback:

LMS-5400, Caps, SubM

The Captivator response didn't differ much from the LMS-5400 response to HPF. The LMS-5400 were compressing quite a bit in the playback levels Austin was pushing them too. I was watching the real time frequency response and when Austin was pushing the volume up to the +9 above reference levels with the subs 8dB hot the driver/inuke amp combo had nothing left to give. Compression was occuring and the Catalyst speakers were making most of the SPL as evidenced by the RTA function on the spl tab on the omnimic. It was still loud!!! painfully so, but the lows weren't as promanent on the LMS-5400 at the max volumes as compared to the highs --- the balance had changed from bass hot to mains hot. The caps auditioned next. Music sounded similar. I personally thought the caps sounded a bit weak during the music audition at the standard -15 volume - owning a pair myself and being familiar with the material I expected more -- which is evident by the frequency response --- but that's what they offered with no external EQ. However -- after the cap music audition at the standard volume - Andrew cut them loose, and at that point - the frequency response no longer really mattered. Max SPL mattered. And the caps have that in spades. The Caps kept their frequency response quite well as spls increased. I think the native frequency respons we recorded was probably kept better on the caps than the LMS-5400 and the Submersive HP as the volumes peaked. So even though the reserved volume frequency response plots show the Submersive HPs at a much higher frequency response down in the low hz. That wasn't so evident in listening at ridiculous spl levels. In fact I think the Captivators delivered the most tactile feedback of all the subs, and I definately wasn't alone on that thought. They shook the projector screen the most, they knocked the projector mount loose twice. None of the other auditions knocked the projector mount loose. Caps did 2xs. The caps dislodged a bass trap, and were the subs that people stated fluttered their pant legs the most. A couple of the guys in the rear of the room were saying the caps felt the most tactile, even behind the bar 20 foot back in the room if you read the comments... I think that had to do with the fact that the caps have the ability to play quite loud at their native frequency response while the sealed counterparts began to compress somewhat at louder volumes with their normally boosted low end. So it amounts to this. At standardized -15dB for music play through the sound was definately different between caps and submersive, but when volume restrictions were eliminated ---- playtime came (which is what everyone probably most remembers) the caps held their own.

Originally Posted by craig john 


Dual Captivators in purple and triple Submersives in green.
How much different did these 2 sub systems sound? Even taking infrasonics and the whole sealed/ported issue out of the discussion, that's a 12 dB difference at 20 Hz. They had to *sound* completely different. Yet no one mentioned a big difference in their listening impressions. Or, were you all just deaf by that point?
Craig

Originally Posted by Hksvr4 

Does the F2 sound identical to the SubM?

Originally Posted by bsoko2 

I'm glad that I went with 3 Submersives.

Originally Posted by Archaea 

Remember the order of playback:
LMS-5400, Caps, SubM
The Captivator response didn't differ much from the LMS-5400 response to HPF. The LMS-5400 were compressing quite a bit in the playback levels Austin was pushing them too. I was watching the real time frequency response and when Austin was pushing the volume up to the +9 above reference levels with the subs 8dB hot the driver/inuke amp combo had nothing left to give. Compression was occuring and the Catalyst speakers were making most of the SPL as evidenced by the RTA function on the spl tab on the omnimic. It was still loud!!! painfully so, but the lows weren't as promanent on the LMS-5400 at the max volumes as compared to the highs --- the balance had changed from bass hot to mains hot. The caps auditioned next. Music sounded similar. I personally thought the caps sounded a bit weak during the music audition at the standard -15 volume - owning a pair myself and being familiar with the material I expected more -- which is evident by the frequency response --- but that's what they offered with no external EQ. However -- after the cap music audition at the standard volume - Andrew cut them loose, and at that point - the frequency response no longer really mattered. Max SPL mattered. And the caps have that in spades. The Caps kept their frequency response quite well as spls increased. I think the native frequency respons we recorded was probably kept better on the caps than the LMS-5400 and the Submersive HP as the volumes peaked. So even though the reserved volume frequency response plots show the Submersive HPs at a much higher frequency response down in the low hz. That wasn't so evident in listening at ridiculous spl levels. In fact I think the Captivators delivered the most tactile feedback of all the subs, and I definately wasn't alone on that thought. They shook the projector screen the most, they knocked the projector mount loose twice. None of the other auditions knocked the projector mount loose. Caps did 2xs. The caps dislodged a bass trap, and were the subs that people stated fluttered their pant legs the most. A couple of the guys in the rear of the room were saying the caps felt the most tactile, even behind the bar 20 foot back in the room if you read the comments... I think that had to do with the fact that the caps have the ability to play quite loud at their native frequency response while the sealed counterparts began to compress somewhat at louder volumes with their normally boosted low end. So it amounts to this. At standardized -15dB for music play through the sound was definately different between caps and submersive, but when volume restrictions were eliminated ---- playtime came (which is what everyone probably most remembers) the caps held their own.

Originally Posted by Archaea 

while the sealed counterparts began to compress somewhat at louder volumes with their normally boosted low end.

Originally Posted by bsoko2 

I'm glad that I went with 3 Submersives.

Originally Posted by craig john 

I doubt there is a "bad" choice there. I'm sure the Cap's are superb subwoofers... different than the SubM's in significant ways, but superb nonetheless. Still, I'm completely happy with my 3 Submersives also.
Craig

Originally Posted by carp 

BTW, did anyone at the GTG experience that feeling that the bass is affecting your breathing (not sure if that's the best way to describe it, but that's all I can come up with)?

(3) Seaton Submersives - 2X Submersive HP and 1x Submersive F2

Dear GOD. This trio built up some serious pressure even 20+ feet back from the LP. Even while sitting at the the bar, it honestly felt like we were experiencing an earthquake. I believe it was Ben who mentioned that outside it my street it sounded like something was trying to dig itself out of my basement, haha.

Clearly the perfect combination for those wanting a no compromise solution for the best in fit, finish, sound quality, and output in a very aesthetically pleasing "small" package. Well done, Mr. Seaton. There really are no compromises here, except cost of course. If you want more output or have a larger room, just save up and buy more of them.

They took anything and everything we through at them. Mark obviously spent a crap ton of time making sure the DSP and amplifier are perfectly matched with the driver and enclosure. I'm sure the powered Captivator performs similarly in terms of proper limiters, EQ matched, etc. The submersive has stupid extension, ungodly output, and all while never resulting in a hint of distortion or distress.

There was one scene that sounded particularly impressive with this setup - the 'it was all a dream' scene from Inception. Normally I'm not a huge fan of that clip, but I heard things there that I never heard/felt with my Captivator. I thought that was super cool and worth noting.

The F2 was just DAMN sexy. Mark and I got into some detail as to how the front panel(s) are constructed and I will say this - for those seeking such a package your money is WELL spent.

3) Seaton Submersives - 2X Submersive HP and 1x Submersive F2
Let’s just say that before we even turned these on every single person in the room was grinning from ear to ear like a kid in a candy store. Having not heard one I had no idea what to expect, and TBH after just hearing the dual caps I was not expecting these to blow my mind much further. I was mistaken matched perfectly with the Cats (obviously) and just punched us all in the face with output. Super clean super tight, more chest feel vs the JTRs and ever so slightly tighter. Played every clip with ease, 5hz notes in “Bass I love you” without issue, nailed the entire sweep and overall just sang to us. Amazing that bass that loud can sound that clean, JTRs and LMS do it as well but the SubMs just take it to 11. The F2 is also one sexy looking sub really like the design; IMO better looking vs the normal Sub M Rosewood finish was gorgeous. Hats off to you Mark, simply amazing.

Triple Submersives (two HP's and one F2)
What do you do for an encore to a pair of Captivators? Hook up three Submersives of course! With enough wattage to light up a small city, and sufficient output for home demolition, the Submersives pummeled the lot of us. What destruction the Captivators didn't complete the Submersives finished off. Great overall sound, with exceptional clarity. Volume wasn't an issue here either; keep increasing the knob and these subwoofers just get louder and louder, with no lose of composure. Movies and music alike were very well rendered. My pant legs were flapping again, and for some reason I liked it. Veneer work was gorgeous too, which made them look quite nice.

Originally Posted by JimWilson 

I no longer have kidney stones. Does that count?

Originally Posted by carp 

You guys can't just say sh*t like that (says the guy with 2 Submersives and an incurable case of up-graditis).

Originally Posted by craig john 

It only counts if you no longer have kidneys.

Originally Posted by edoggrc51 

Just curious, how was the bottom end boosted on the LMS? Was it via the inuke's DSP??

Originally Posted by carp 

You guys can't just say sh*t like that (says the guy with 2 Submersives and an incurable case of up-graditis).
Yep, having owned both they are both amazing. To be completely fair, I wonder how 3 Captivators would have fared against 2 Submersives? At moderate volumes I would still prefer the Submersives since I just love it's sound however, if you let them loose the Caps would be in or possibly above Orbit Shifter territory (depending on the frequency) which is beyond insane.
BTW, did anyone at the GTG experience that feeling that the bass is affecting your breathing (not sure if that's the best way to describe it, but that's all I can come up with)? It's a feeling that I have only had with the OS and for some weird and sick reason I really like it.

Originally Posted by carp 



You guys can't just say sh*t like that (says the guy with 2 Submersives and an incurable case of up-graditis).

Yep, having owned both they are both amazing. To be completely fair, I wonder how 3 Captivators would have fared against 2 Submersives? At moderate volumes I would still prefer the Submersives since I just love it's sound however, if you let them loose the Caps would be in or possibly above Orbit Shifter territory (depending on the frequency) which is beyond insane.


BTW, did anyone at the GTG experience that feeling that the bass is affecting your breathing (not sure if that's the best way to describe it, but that's all I can come up with)? It's a feeling that I have only had with the OS and for some weird and sick reason I really like it.

Originally Posted by Archaea 


I don't know at what specific frequency these max playback spls were recorded in either meet, omnimic doesn't easily tell me that, but the two refrigerator sized orbit shifters definately get louder than two ported caps or three submersives hp subs --- that much I can assuredly tell you.

Originally Posted by Archaea 

I wasn't very clear there. The Submersive HPs in program 2 are boosted in the lower frequencies. The LMS-5400 set was not boosted at the low end as far as I know because I think the Inuke DSP was not engaged, just the mini dsp, but I believe the Inuke amp was out of juice at the levels of playback requested. The clip lights were on pretty much non stop and the dynamics were the casualty. I know of the three top sub systems, that the LMS-5400/Inuke setup pretty clearly had the least bass being recorded by the omnimic's RTA frequency analyser when compared to the mains. Unfortunately that information can't be captured real time so you'll have to take my word for it. Well and a second person's word. Mike, sat next to me and I pointed it out to him on several occassions -- I'm sure he will confirm the same. I would have liked to hear the LMS-5400's with a more powerful amp just for grins. In hindsight I wish we could have used the Crown XLS-5000 amp on both the LMS-5400 and the Caps. The Crown XLS-5000, 62lb battle tank amp is no joke. It goes full tilt until something breaks. While using that amp we
1) tripped Gorilla83s AV Power Strip/conditioner, on friday night (the xls-5000 is the only thing on it). I told Gorilla to plug directly into the wall
2) we then tripped the dedicated 20 amp circuit on the crown xls-5000 on Friday.
3) during the meet we tripped the internal 20 amp circuit breakers on the Crown xls-5000 during its audition.
Three ways proven during this g2g that the Crown pulls a LOT of power. The inuke amp was on a dedicated 20 amp circuit as well, as were the three two submersives on a single 20amp outlet. None of the other amplifiers tripped anything. Gorilla, and I got a SWEET deal on that crown xls-5000 amp for $600. It has some guts to be sure. It would be fun to have heard the LSM-5400 on the same amp.
EDIT ---- Mike, akbash contacted me through pm and said they moved one of the submersives to a separate circuit before the demo to help ensure a breaker didn't trip!

Originally Posted by craig john 

If it makes you feel better, I have a friend with just one, so *you* are his upgraditis goal.

Originally Posted by ZivkoF 


Was that at the 2012 KC meet Orbit Shifter LFU, which goes lower than OSLF and it is also bigger and weight is higher.

Orbit Shifter LFU

Frequency +/-1db* 22-110hz (useful output below 10hz in room)
Sensitivity 97db, 1 meter, 1.41volts, 2 ohm
Useable Output** 133db
Amplifier 4000 watt RMS, 7200 watt burst
Dimensions 50×22.5″ x32″(HxWxD)
Weight 195lbs

vs

Orbit Shifter LF

Frequency +/-1db* 26-110hz (useful output below 10hz in room)
Sensitivity 97db, 1 meter, 1.41volts, 2 ohm
Useable Output** 133db
Amplifier 4000 watt RMS, 7200 watt burst
Dimensions 30″x22.5″ x45″(HxWxD)
Weight 177lbs

Originally Posted by MIkeDuke 

I may be wrong, but I am guessing he is talking about me . My "upgraditis" has to with all you guys with big rooms and really big screens. I have the audio, I just wish I had the video to go with it. Again, reading all these posts about the meet is very informative for me. It was a great day even though I sort of stayed in one spot all day and was out of the way . I like reading all the posts about how the tests were conducted and what the results really mean. My right ear is finally better. I made the mistake of taking out the right ear plug during the LMS test and I started to pay for it the next day. I don't know how you guys do it. My room is so small that even 107-110db is loud and really shakes my room.
Now I do realize that this was a "unique" situation. When we were running the tests on the top performers of the day, the level during movie play back was loud the entire time. They were at least 7-10 movie clips. I know we did WOTW, KFP, TDK, Battle for LA, TRON, The Incredible Hulk, HTTYD and I am sure I am missing some. We had all of those incredible scenes cranked the entire time. Typically that would not happen. In a movie there might be a big loud scene and then you and your ears would have time to relax and recuperate. That did not happen hear. It was just loud scene after loud scene. For a short burst I can probably take the levels that most of you like. But having experienced that kind of bass on Sat was really intense. It reminded me the first time I tried to test my sub previous to what I have now. It was a JM Labs SW900. It was quite the sub. I wanted to test it though but I did not know what I was doing. I just put the level up to a number I thought was good and started testing. When I started to hit 115db at 45Hz and it was still a loud 98db at 23Hz I realized I made a mistake. My ears were killing me for a number of days after that. Then I did the test again at much more reasonable level and the results were much better. To me, back then, that was really loud. That normally does not happen with movies that I watch all the way through. Maybe one time with WOTW with the SubMersive but I am smarter now. I can handle big peaks now as long as it not like 30 min non stop of teeth rattling bass. That being said, it was still a great day and I had a lot of fun. I think these tests proved that there are times that the dynamics in a movie can bet quite impressive.
Give all of that, I really like how the SubMersive performs in my room. It is probably over kill for my space. But it is still fun. I am just a bit smarter now, Craig calibrated my system. I typically don't go higher then -15 or -14 in my room. Anything more then that is really loud. So when I was at -3 in Craig's room and you guys were in the +7 or +8 range, I was really not ready for what followed. But like I said, it was a great day and if there is another one, I hope I get an invitee .

Originally Posted by craig john 

Actually Mike, I was talking about our friend Dennis. He recently got a SubM and he has plans at some point to get another. Clearly, you don't *need* another SubM in your room.
Craig

Originally Posted by Sibuna 

Dual LMS 5400 Ultra