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BenQ W1070 : DLP Full HD, 3D Ready with lens-shift for 1000$ - Page 185

post #5521 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post

The Service Manual for the projector ('W 1070 9H.J7L77.17E.pdf' - on the google docs share with the firmware) under the 'Specification' section indicates:

I was hoping someone can look in the service menu itself for the CW multiplier setting just to see what is there.
Edited by coderguy - 7/15/13 at 4:33am
post #5522 of 8560
I checked the service menu. But there is no mention of wheel speed or multiplier in all 5 blocks. So it will remain as a myth. But as least my ear tells me it spins faster in 60hz than 50.
post #5523 of 8560
It is a 6x wheel in both 50hz and 60hz, nothing else makes sense.

As I explained in the other thread just now, if a 6x speed wheel @ 50hz runs as 9000 RPM, that is ONLY because it cannot run any faster in 50hz mode because it is already at a 6x multiple. The reason 60hz mode is also at 6x, is because the RPM's of the motor change to 10,800 RPM in 60hz MODE ONLY, which also equals a 6x color wheel. The complete fallacy of that article he posted, is that he is saying the motor maxes out at 9000 RPM because that's the max in 50hz mode, that has nothing to do with the max RPM in 60hz mode. Also, the Benq w7000 (as I noted many times) works exactly like I am saying this works, it's the same. If you run the same 50hz test on the w7000, you get the same results as that Russian test (and its definitely incorrect in the case of the w7000), because the problem is in 60hz mode when you set it to a 3x multiple, then you are at 10,800 RPM, not at 7200 RPM (4x). This is the STANDARD 6-speed color wheel design (10,800 RPM at 60hz and 9000 RPM at 50hz).

Instead these posters are trying to equate 50hz to 60hz directly as the color wheel speed, that does not work because even though they do realize the RPM's change, they have it backwards. The RPM's dont slow down when going to 60hz on a 6x wheel, but they speed up. As far as some saying the motor sounds like it is slowing down when going from 50hz to 60hz, well on many DLP's I've owned, the motor changes speed more than once to re-synch the signal.
Edited by coderguy - 7/15/13 at 6:57am
post #5524 of 8560
Finally splurged and ordered one today along with the 67-72 mm step up ring and a hoya ND2 filter. I have such buyers remorse right now lol. I also purchased this screen: http://www.amazon.com/Epson-80-Inch-Aspect-Projection-Portable/dp/B000HRYV38/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373892805&sr=8-1&keywords=portable+projector+screen

Going to use it for outdoors alot this summer at night and then going to put it in the basement when that's finished close to the fall and buy a fixed frame screen.
post #5525 of 8560
Is anyone here able to select 'Auto' in 3D setting? I cannot and do not know what it is used for? Thanks.
post #5526 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma-black View Post

Thanks for the tip. I didn't adjust the zoom ratio before. Now the calculator says I can move the projector as far back as 13 feet if I set the zoom ratio to 1.3. I'm going to double and triple check to make sure this is right before I buy it, though.

EDIT: The calculator doesn't make sense. I would think the picture would get bigger if you increase the zoom but the calculator shows the opposite. I definitely need to get this sorted out before I buy. Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighvy76 View Post

Thats true. Why would moving the zoom up.. 1.3 allow u to move it back??? U think it would make it bigger. I'm confused also

Zoom doesn't do what you think it does.

The BenQ calculator is accurate. The actual projector behaves exactly as the virtual projector on the calculator indicates. I know this from experience.

If the virtual calc in the projector works in your rooms, then the actual one will as well.
post #5527 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post


Zoom doesn't do what you think it does.

The BenQ calculator is accurate. The actual projector behaves exactly as the virtual projector on the calculator indicates. I know this from experience.

If the virtual calc in the projector works in your rooms, then the actual one will as well.
post #5528 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It is a 6x wheel in both 50hz and 60hz, nothing else makes sense.

As I explained in the other thread just now, if a 6x speed wheel @ 50hz runs as 9000 RPM, that is ONLY because it cannot run any faster in 50hz mode because it is already at a 6x multiple. The reason 60hz mode is also at 6x, is because the RPM's of the motor change to 10,800 RPM in 60hz MODE ONLY, which also equals a 6x color wheel. The complete fallacy of that article he posted, is that he is saying the motor maxes out at 9000 RPM because that's the max in 50hz mode, that has nothing to do with the max RPM in 60hz mode. Also, the Benq w7000 (as I noted many times) works exactly like I am saying this works, it's the same. If you run the same 50hz test on the w7000, you get the same results as that Russian test (and its definitely incorrect in the case of the w7000), because the problem is in 60hz mode when you set it to a 3x multiple, then you are at 10,800 RPM, not at 7200 RPM (4x). This is the STANDARD 6-speed color wheel design (10,800 RPM at 60hz and 9000 RPM at 50hz).

Instead these posters are trying to equate 50hz to 60hz directly as the color wheel speed, that does not work because even though they do realize the RPM's change, they have it backwards. The RPM's dont slow down when going to 60hz on a 6x wheel, but they speed up. As far as some saying the motor sounds like it is slowing down when going from 50hz to 60hz, well on many DLP's I've owned, the motor changes speed more than once to re-synch the signal.

It's for sure spinning slower at 60hz then 50hz or 24hz 3D. Changing from 50hz to 60hz slows down color wheel speed quit a lot and it's VERY easy to hear in my unit and no i don't have it backwards smile.gif
post #5529 of 8560
Sorry ^………… I ment to say thanks that was what I. Was hoping. Mine will arrive this week. So do u want to run the "zoom" in or out all the way for best picture or does it not matter
post #5530 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Glad you had no trouble updating the firmware. It is obvious that you have quite a bit of computer experience that is the reason why it was so easy for you. I am wondering if your main reason for wanting 1080/60SBS is for video games since 1080/24p is fine for films.

My htpc is used only for movies. I have my PS3 set to play BD content at 1080p24. The main reason I like having my htpc running at 1080p60 is for the higher fps I get on the navigation GUI in xbmc. I find it very slow when I run in 1080p24 mode. Having SBS in 1080p60 would just allow me to have a smooth gui and play all 2d/3d content without having to switch to other display modes. It's more of a convenience thing. I'm thrilled with the projector, even before the firmware update.
post #5531 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by bighvy76 View Post

Sorry ^………… I ment to say thanks that was what I. Was hoping. Mine will arrive this week. So do u want to run the "zoom" in or out all the way for best picture or does it not matter

Depends on the projector. Never tested it myself, but from others I've gathered that it doesn't make much difference either way.

I have mine at very minimal zoom. My PJ is mounted about an inch further back than is necessary to project a 110" image with no zoom.

Long story short. Use as much or as little zoom as you need to make the PJ work in your room. That's the most important thing.
post #5532 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by psat View Post

My htpc is used only for movies. I have my PS3 set to play BD content at 1080p24. The main reason I like having my htpc running at 1080p60 is for the higher fps I get on the navigation GUI in xbmc. I find it very slow when I run in 1080p24 mode. Having SBS in 1080p60 would just allow me to have a smooth gui and play all 2d/3d content without having to switch to other display modes. It's more of a convenience thing. I'm thrilled with the projector, even before the firmware update.
SBS 3D is gray out on my pj when my HTPC is set to 1080p/60Hz. You say you can play SBS 3D at 1080p/60 desktop resolution?
post #5533 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaMiR View Post


It's for sure spinning slower at 60hz then 50hz or 24hz 3D. Changing from 50hz to 60hz slows down color wheel speed quit a lot and it's VERY easy to hear in my unit and no i don't have it backwards smile.gif

Agreed: the Color Wheel Multiplier is almost definitely dropping with the increase of frame rate from 50hz to 60hz (as per the service manual) - which is not what we'd expect.
The reason could be mechanical: a maximum accurate-RPM limit on the CW motor maybe. Also remember that the TI chip is producing full red, green and blue composites of the image - twice - for every single CW revolution. Perhaps the limit lies here in that 60hz x 6 composites x 3 revolutions is beyond the chip's capabilities; so the CW is dropped to 2 revolutions per frame to reduce the load on the TI chip.

Alternatively, it may be limited purely in firmware (I've heard of projectors offering variable CW Multipliers in their service menus) because BenQ wants to save it for the next model (or because they haven't tested it thoroughly enough.)

It's all speculation though: as JaMiR says, simply powering on the projector, setting it to smart-eco (the fan's quietest mode), selecting a source, waiting a few minutes for the fan to go quiet and changing from 60hz down to 50hz (at 1080p) produces a single, obvious (but counter-intuitive) increase in the audible pitch of the motor; much like a soft jet-engine accelerating. And a reduction in rainbows to those who're sensitive! (When I power my projector on, I know immediately from the rainbows on the high-contrast monochrome XBMC splash-screen if I've left my source at 60hz instead of 50hz :-)

Who knows: maybe firmware 1.07 will increase the CW Multiplier at 60hz! ;-)
Edited by kreeturez - 7/15/13 at 11:16am
post #5534 of 8560
JaMiR
kreeturez

You're absolutly right. 1080p50Hz - max color wheel speed for w1070 wink.gif
post #5535 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post

The reason could be mechanical: a maximum accurate-RPM limit on the CW motor maybe. Also remember that the TI chip is producing full red, green and blue composites of the image - twice - for every single CW revolution. Perhaps the limit lies here in that 60hz x 6 composites x 3 revolutions is beyond the chip's capabilities; so the CW is dropped to 2 revolutions per frame to reduce the load on the TI chip.

Alternatively, it may be limited purely in firmware (I've heard of projectors offering variable CW Multipliers in their service menus) because BenQ wants to save it for the next model (or because they haven't tested it thoroughly enough.)

What are you speaking of about beyond the chip's capabilities, there are tons of 6-speed color wheels @ 60hz that use the same chips. The limiter in firmware is usually done due to the color fidelity side effects it causes with certain implementations, and the added noise it adds to the projector's fans when the wheel is at 10,800 RPM in 60hz mode...
post #5536 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

SBS 3D is gray out on my pj when my HTPC is set to 1080p/60Hz. You say you can play SBS 3D at 1080p/60 desktop resolution?

Try setting your color space or pixel format (through your video driver settings on your PC) to RGB instead of YCbCr.
post #5537 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post

selecting a source, waiting a few minutes for the fan to go quiet and changing from 60hz down to 50hz (at 1080p) produces a single, obvious (but counter-intuitive) increase in the audible pitch of the motor; much like a soft jet-engine accelerating.

What kind of signal are you passing, sounds like the divisibility of the pulldown modes, or some external issue on the projector is getting messed up when it is re-synch'n. I would only compare from a cold start with a pure signal. I don't know what's going on, but none of this really adds up. If I get a chance to look at the w1070 again, I'll pay more attention to the color wheel.
Edited by coderguy - 7/15/13 at 12:29pm
post #5538 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The limiter in firmware is usually done due to the color fidelity side effects it causes with certain implementations, and the added noise it adds to the projector's fans when the wheel is at 10,800 RPM in 60hz mode...

Then indeed, perhaps that's the reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

If I get a chance to look at the w1070 again, I'll pay more attention to the color wheel.

Good idea! Let us know your findings when you do; you may be surprised. :-)
post #5539 of 8560
OK I just did an interesting test, not related to the w1070, but interesting none-the-less.

Just to show you I'm not crazy:
I went into the service menu of my w7000 again, I set the color wheel to 3x multiplier at 60hz (HTPC) in the service menu (6x color wheel).
This is the max noise level, the max noise level definitely occurs on the w7000 at 60hz, hence no 50hz mode can match the noise level of the 3x multiplier at 60hz.

Here is the funny thing, when I went to 50hz, the color multiplier auto-reverted to 2x (the opposite of what is being reported on the w1070)...

So then I forced the 3x multiplier in the service menu EVEN for 50hz, the noise is definitely indicating 9000 RPM, hence 3x multiplier at 50hz is exactly (noise-wise) halfway between 60hz at 3x multiplier, and 60hz at 2x multiplier. The 60hz noise level on the w7000 with the 3x multiplier is exactly indicating 10,800 RPM (and it's a lot louder than 9000 RPM of the 3x multi-50hz mode).

Just saying...
post #5540 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post

Then indeed, perhaps that's the reason.
Good idea! Let us know your findings when you do; you may be surprised. :-)

Agreed. Hope this time coderguy will use some kind of equipment, then it will be usefull for all, otherwise it would be demagoguery, because "ears" are not objective. Good luck. smile.gif
post #5541 of 8560
The 60hz (3x) mode of my w7000 is at least 5x louder than the 50hz (3x multi) mode of my w7000. So there is no question in my mind, that the w7000 is 10,800 RPM at 60hz and 9000 RPM at 50hz when it is set to a 3x multiplier. So if the w1070 is engineered backwards to this (and I'm taking people's word atm), then next time I see the w1070 --- I will notice the difference right away on the w1070 compared to the w7000.

It is actually very easy to discern on the w7000 the 6x/3x RPM's just by ear (maybe not on the w1070 since supposedly it's running at a lower RPM). My w7000 can be heard across my 17 foot mounting distance without even having to concentrate.

Let me put it this way, can you hear your vacuum cleaner, or do you need special equipment for that?
Edited by coderguy - 7/15/13 at 1:05pm
post #5542 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The 60hz (3x) mode of my w7000 is at least 5x louder than the 50hz (3x multi) mode of my w7000. So there is no question in my mind, that the w7000 is 10,800 RPM at 60hz and 9000 RPM at 50hz when it is set to a 3x multiplier. So if the w1070 is engineered backwards to this (and I'm taking people's word atm), then next time I see the w1070 --- I will notice the difference right away on the w1070 compared to the w7000.

It is actually very easy to discern on the w7000 the 6x/3x RPM's just by ear (maybe not on the w1070 since supposedly it's running at a lower RPM). My w7000 can be heard across my 17 foot mounting distance without even having to concentrate.

Let me put it this way, can you hear your vacuum cleaner, or do you need special equipment for that?

Yeah, continue to use:
ears - to determine the sound pressure
eyes - for professional display calibration
tongue - to identify chemical elements.

Maybe, we will stop it and wait for your professional review?!
post #5543 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by psat View Post

Try setting your color space or pixel format (through your video driver settings on your PC) to RGB instead of YCbCr.
Thanks. Is YCbCr suppose to be better than RGB setting? Thanks again.
post #5544 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Thanks. Is YCbCr suppose to be better than RGB setting? Thanks again.

From what I've read, movies are mastered using YCbCr. RGB has full range and most commonly used in traditional PC setups. However, it depends so much on the AV components you have from source to display. I have Denon AVR-2312CI doing all the HDMI switching and in my own eyeball tests (the only one that ultimately matters to me), I like YCbCr better. This article has some useful info that may shed more light on the subject.
post #5545 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by velconti View Post

JaMiR
kreeturez

You're absolutly right. 1080p50Hz - max color wheel speed for w1070 wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by velconti View Post

Yeah, continue to use:
ears - to determine the sound pressure
eyes - for professional display calibration
tongue - to identify chemical elements.

Maybe, we will stop it and wait for your professional review?!

Amazing, when people agrees with you with their "ear evidence", you accept as a fact. When other people's ear evidence disagrees with you, this is what you put up. You learnt the art of hypocrisy from American politicians (sorry not offending your fellow Americans)
post #5546 of 8560
Thinking of getting this projector but I've never had a DLP model before and don't know if I'm sensitive to rainbows or not. One professional review I read said they were really bad with this model.

So is there any consensus here that running this BenQ at 2D/50hz essentially makes rainbows a non-issue?

Or are they still a problem for some?
post #5547 of 8560
I have an Oppo 103 that I decided to connect directly to my 1070 rather than go through my Integra pre. HDMI output 2 works without issue, however I am unable to get HDMI output 1 to work properly with the 1070. I have tried using the 6 foot HDMI cable with the player moved next to the projector, still no luck. The Home Screen of the Oppo will come up initially, but the moment I try to scroll to setup or anywhere using the remote, I lose connection and it won't come back until I reboot both the projector and BD palyer. Has anyone else had this issue? I saw a post where a gentleman from Russia mentioned something similar, he inserted a preamp and was able to get it to work, however I would like to be able to use this combination without a preamp. My 1070 is running 1.05 firmware.

Thanks,
Ed
post #5548 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by psat View Post

From what I've read, movies are mastered using YCbCr. RGB has full range and most commonly used in traditional PC setups. However, it depends so much on the AV components you have from source to display. I have Denon AVR-2312CI doing all the HDMI switching and in my own eyeball tests (the only one that ultimately matters to me), I like YCbCr better. This article has some useful info that may shed more light on the subject.
Hey thanks. I am using similar AVR, the 3312. I will switch between the two to see if I can notice the difference. Thanks for the link to a good article.
Edited by Cowboys - 7/15/13 at 4:53pm
post #5549 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by velconti View Post


First and foremost, I am going by the SERVICE MENU multiplier setting, what every reviewer has said about the w7000, WHAT WE ALL KNOW to be true, and LASTLY confirming with the ears.

Unlike your w1070 SM, in the w7000 we can watch the multiplier change dynamically in the menu. If you want to continue to drag this out and proclaim yourself as an expert, I can bring other people in here to confirm the way MOST color wheels work, and many people just from the w7000 thread can also confirm what I have posted. I can also provide screenshots of the service menu, if you so need them. Zombie10k knows this too and can hear it as well, and I'm sure he will be glad to post, it's obvious.

Despite all this, I am still giving YOU the benefit of the doubt that you guys may be right about the w1070's color wheel. Only because since I don't have a w1070 on me at the moment, I cannot prove anything about the w1070 (and I cannot be sure anyhow), but I am just saying don't be so quick to throw facts in the trash.

What part of Service Menu CW multiplier do you not understand?

I have confirmed how the w7000 wheel works by the service menu setting, reviewers, a whitepaper, by sight, and by hearing / ears. Your rebuttal is completely silly, I used every available method and EVERY single one is in agreement with the other.

A whitepaper talks about how color wheel speeds generally work, which is that they are 10.8k RPM at 6x in 60hz,
and that this speed usually slows down to 9k rpm @ 50hz at 6x.


THE above is ABSOLUTELY how the W7000's color wheel works, it follows the standard CW design, so there is no need for debate on this point, and every owner of the w7000 can easily confirm this by matching up the service menu multiplier with the unusually loud sounds the CW makes in 6x mode.

There is no mention in any of the papers or threads I saw that HT color wheels are generally manufactured with 50hz @ 6x in mind first, and then slow down (fewer RPM) for 60hz, only the opposite is discussed. Furthermore, the w7000 is proven to be quieter in 50hz 3x mode (zero doubt, ask anyone in the w7000 thread to try it). This is not a small difference in sound, the difference is HUGE. Also. I'm not saying no projector has ever been made to where the 60hz mode uses slower RPM's than the 50hz mode, I am just saying from what I have seen, it is not the NORM for HT projectors.

Furthermore, it is very easy to HEAR the difference between 10.8k RPM and 9k or 7.2k RPM on the w7000, but it is MUCH MUCH more difficult to hear the difference between 9k RPM and 7.2k RPM. 10.8K RPM sounds like a vacuum cleaner, which is why by default the w7000 ships at the 4x speed (2x multi), instead of the 6x speed (3x multi).

According to you guys, the w1070 color wheel motor is implemented backwards to how most color wheels are designed. It was backwards day when the w1070 was created. It's possible, but I just find it strange.

...
Edited by coderguy - 8/31/13 at 2:06pm
post #5550 of 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post

Thinking of getting this projector but I've never had a DLP model before and don't know if I'm sensitive to rainbows or not. One professional review I read said they were really bad with this model.

So is there any consensus here that running this BenQ at 2D/50hz essentially makes rainbows a non-issue?

Or are they still a problem for some?
I used to get sick when watching movies on a DLP projector when they first came out... Now either they have gotten better (I am sure they are, just not to what degree) or I have become non sensitive. I don't kmow which but I do know that mine doesn't bother me at all.
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