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Denon 2312/4311 or Yamaha 2010/3010 for my needs (and where to buy from)?

post #1 of 21
10/25/12 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
I am confused about my choices... Here is what I want to do:

- 5.1 or 7.1 in the living room. My living room is small (14" deep) so 7.1 might be overkill?
- 2 (stereo) outside, controlled by the same receiver as the living room so I can have coverage for parties. Separate volume control is nice (hence looking at the 2312 at a minimum).
- 2 (stereo) inside my bedroom, with a separate AVR (my very old Sony STR DE835). It's nice if I can also plug it as a 3rd zone from my main receiver but it is absolutely not critical or a decision factor. I can AirPlay to everything when I want that (for $69 rather than a 3-zone receiver).

Can I wire a 2312 so that it is 7.1 for movies at times but 5.1 + 2 at others (driving the outside speakers?). It's okay if those are different modes. It's also okay for me to have outside powered speakers or a 2 channel amp for outside if it allows me to do 7.1 inside and 2 outside (as I understand it might, looking at the Official xx12/xx13 threads).

Video-wise, it seems that I am stuck with a Monoprice HDMI switch going straight to my display because I want to be able to listen to my music while the kids play on the Xbox. Are any of the receivers usable that way? A lot of sources seem to require the overlay display (e.g. Internet radio on both).

I like the Denon's built in AirPlay (I tried a 2112) and the fact that it will wake up the receiver from stand by. I don't know how to do that with the Yamaha with an external Airport Express.

I found an open box Yamaha 3010 for $1,100 (that's a lot!) and a 2010 for $900. I have both right now but can return them. I have seen 2312s advertised for $400 and it seems like they would serve my needs but can't actually find them in stock. Are they still available around that price? If a 2312 works for me, I can use the $500 saved over the Yamaha 2010 to buy a Mac mini or better speakers.

What do you is the cheapest setup that will serve my needs? I think any of those receivers with room correction is going to be a big step up from my Sony (and the Audyssey and YPAO in each seem both very good) so I am not worried about one versus the other, just making things work with the least $ out.

I am also open to a 2313 but am not sure what that gives me (don't really care about 4k now).

Thanks for the help!
Edited by Dr. Crash - 10/25/12 at 10:26pm
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post #2 of 21
10/26/12 at 4:29am
The 2312CI only has 7 sets of speaker posts and as the Surr Back and powered Zone 2 use the same speaker posts, you can only wire for either 7.1 or 5.1+Zone 2 but not both (as can be done with some Onkyo AVRs). Upgrading to the 3312CI adds dedicated FH and FW speaker posts which would more easily allow you to switch between (5.1+FH or 5.1+FW) and 5.1+Zone 2, but not 5.1+Surr Back. If you prefer 7.1 (Surr Back), your best bet may be to connect the Sony receiver to the Zone 2 pre-outs and then connect an impedance matching speaker selector to the Sony receiver and then connect both the outdoor and bedroom speakers to the speaker selector.

It's unclear as to whether you want to listen to your music on the main zone or Zone 2 speakers while the kids play xBox in the main zone as well as whether the music is from an external source or on board application (eg. Pandora, internet radio, Airplay, Tuner). Pandora and Internet radio and externally connected analog sources can play independently to Zone 2 while another source is playing to the main zone (note this does not apply to Airplay), while if you only want xBox video in the main zone, you'll want to connect the xBox with component video cables and while the NET/USB source is selected, change the Video Select setting to the component video input source.

I don't recall ever seeing the 2312CI for < $500 "new" although your best bet is to call AVS Sales or Electronics Expo to see if they still have any in stock. You also may want to consider a refurb.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR2312CI/DENON-AVR-2312CI-7.2-Integrated-Network-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html
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post #3 of 21
10/26/12 at 5:04am
You may want to look into the Yamaha RX-V773. It has seperate connections to run 7.2, 5.2+2nd zone, 5.1+fp...all u have to do is switch between configurations. Its only $799, but I have seen it sold for less in several places.
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post #4 of 21
10/27/12 at 10:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

It's unclear as to whether you want to listen to your music on the main zone or Zone 2 speakers while the kids play xBox in the main zone as well as whether the music is from an external source or on board application (eg. Pandora, internet radio, Airplay, Tuner). Pandora and Internet radio and externally connected analog sources can play independently to Zone 2 while another source is playing to the main zone (note this does not apply to Airplay), while if you only want xBox video in the main zone, you'll want to connect the xBox with component video cables and while the NET/USB source is selected, change the Video

I want to listen to audio in thmain zone. My main source will be AirPlay though radio is an option too (wors case I can channel Internet radio through AirPlay). So it seems that even if I wired my kitchen as a zone 2 I could not send AirPlay to it? Is that correct? I want to be able to play AirPlay in any zone... And if I have to use an airport express for that, well... the Yamaha and Denon are about the same in that regard.
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post #5 of 21
10/28/12 at 4:17am
With the Denon XX12 or XX11 models, although Airplay can play to Zone 2, it must also be the audio selected for the main zone as well, whereas the XX13 models do not have this limitation and after selecting Airplay to both zones, can then select another audio source in the main zone. Using an external Airplay device (eg. Extreme, ATV, Express) with a XX12 or XX11 model will allow independent Airplay to Zone 2.
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post #6 of 21
10/28/12 at 12:18pm
Thread Starter 
My bedroom will be a Zone 3. So it seems that my best bet is either my Sony with the Airport Express, or a true Zone 3 receiver with an external Airport Express source too (on CD, or MULTI CH on a Yamaha); I already have an Airport Express. It seems that even the XX13 models would be awkward to use (turn on AirPlay everywhere, THEN turn it off in main). A true Zone 3 would be nice as I might be able to channel any source to the bedroom, but I can also get an iTach IR to switch sources on the Sony... So I can sort that out separately.

My Zone 2 will be kitchen + outdoors. Can I use that AudioZone impedance matching volume control to have the outside off unless I turn that volume up? Is that what you were talking about (and are some of those remote controllable)? And is there a way to use two of those to turn either the kitchen or the outdoors on?

The Denon has apparently a bug in AirPlay so built-in AirPlay is not that much of a "plus" anymore if I have to keep disconnecting/reconnecting to the Denon to make AirPlay work (something that cannot be automated well either).

Besides functionality (I am reasonably happy with the current Xbox + music setup with the Denon after getting a component cable and using VIDEO SELECT; I need to retry on the Yamaha to see if I can improve what I had there), the other two things that I don't fully grasp and will influence which receiver I'll keep:

- Is 7.1 going to be overkill in my room (I posted pictures of the room in this thread)? If so, then the 2312 or 3312 is just fine. But I'd like to experiment with 7.1 if it could make a difference (all rear speakers will be in ceiling).

- All things price-wise being equal and features working about the same, is YPAO multi point (w/ or w/o RSC) not as good as Audyssey XT? I listened to a Yamaha and a Denon at Best Buy and could not tell a difference; I also doubt that they run the room correction in their room (since they switch speakers to demo them, and they are all in different locations). A 7.2 Yamaha (the 1010) with its "intelligent amps assign" would absolutely cover a 7.1 for movies / 5.1 + zone 2 stereo for all other times. With a Denon I'd need an extra stereo amp if I went with 7.1 + Zone 2, right?

- As a sequel to the previous question, does the Denon have IP commands that would directly change its amp assign? I imagine that one could automate this with a remote controlled speaker switch if there are IP commands to do that? I looked at Denon's 2312 Serial Protocol document but did not see something that seemed like it. It may just be that I am looking for the wrong term (that happens a lot with the manual too! Each brand has its own lingo...) I don't think that simulating menu interaction with the MN commands would be very robust, but who knows?

Thanks jdsmoothie!

PS: Speaking of VIDEO SELECT on the Denon, I am right to think that once I've set MENU > INPUT SELECT > VIDEO SELECT > XBOX there is no way for me to get the GUI for that source (say Tuner or Internet Radio) without going back to MENU > INPUT SELECT > VIDEO SELECT > SOURCE? It's a slight annoyance but I can work around that by using presets and not needing the UI anymore. But if there is a quick way to get the SOURCE video back on that'd be awesome.
Edited by Dr. Crash - 10/28/12 at 1:09pm
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post #7 of 21
10/28/12 at 6:38pm
1. You'll likely want to connect the outside and kitchen speakers to a speaker selector which could in turn be connected to the listed volume switches.
2. If you can get at least 3-4' horizontal distance behind the main listening position (ie. mic #1), then you can likely get a benefit from using rear surrounds.
3. Yes, an external 2CH amp would be required for 7.1+Zone 2.
4. Not aware of any IP Amp Assign commands.
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post #8 of 21
10/28/12 at 9:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

1. You'll likely want to connect the outside and kitchen speakers to a speaker selector which could in turn be connected to the listed volume switches.

I am not sure what you mean by that? Is it because the volume switches only attenuate up to 39dB and therefore don't really have an "off" position? Are there switches that would allow a full off?
Edited by Dr. Crash - 10/28/12 at 10:19pm
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post #9 of 21
10/29/12 at 4:34am
I'm not familiar with those volume switches, so unless you plan on connecting them in series or parallel, you would need another switch to split the speaker wires to each volume switch.
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post #10 of 21
10/29/12 at 8:10am
Thread Starter 
Got it. You can wire up to eight of them in parallel and they'll adjust the impedance seen by the amp.
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post #11 of 21
12/2/12 at 12:08pm
Newbie here…. Trying to find a good receiver. Not sure if I’m in the right thread here. I’ve never had a quality receiver before so it’s somewhat confusing with regard to all the options and details on the various receivers. Never mind each place you go to tells you something different. I’m in need of some quality unbiased help. Heres my situation: My room is 20 x 12 with carpeting and 7 ft. ceilings. I just purchased Def-Techs 8060st 5.1 surround system speaker package. I’m trying to set up a home theater system for movies and listening to music. We mostly watch TV and Movies. We are starting to get more into the music end of things also. I’m not an Audiophile or Videophile, but I definitely can tell the audio difference between speaker quality and really appreciate the finer high quality stuff. Moneys not an issue within reason. I don’t feel the need to spend $2,000.00 for a receiver, if its not necessary, just so I can brag to someone with what I’ve bought. However, if needed, I will spend whatever is necessary…$2,000.00 is not a problem. One concern I have is future growth for lack of a better word. I would rather get something a little bit more than I need now in anticipation of future needs so I don’t have to start all over again in the future with another purchase in a few years. The only device I currently have is a Sony Play station 3 for gaming which I also use for Blue ray movies. We don’t enjoy listening to head banging extra loud music that would shake a house but we crank up the volume on certain occasions while listening to movies or music, and we need a receiver to work with us in these situations. Being that I’m a newbie, my thoughts were to find a high quality receiver that was friendly and easy to operate. I found a Denon 2313ci (105 watts x 7 channels with 3D) at Best buy for $900.00 retail. Not sure if this is a good fit for my criteria? If not any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated?
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post #12 of 21
12/2/12 at 12:18pm
I would get, and I recently did, the 4311 as it has Audyssey XT32 which provides a dramatic improvement in sound quality.
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post #13 of 21
12/2/12 at 12:21pm
Unless you are specifically interested in the 4 models listed in this thread, you're really better served posting your requirements (be more specific as you really haven't indicated much in this respect) and budget in your own thread. Note that unlike 10 years ago, there is no longer any real "future proofing" more than maybe 2-3 years out as specs change every few years .... in fact in 2-3 years HDMI may no longer even be used. eek.gif A good rule of thumb is that the AVR should cost about 1/2 of the cost of your 5.1 setup as long as your feature/input/output requirements are met. For help with requirements, suggest you review post #2 in the Denon AVR-XX13 Owner's thread linked in my sig to determine which model would be appropriate for you needs. If you have any further Denon AVR related questions after that, feel free to post in that same thread. Based on your speaker package alone, the Denon AVR-4311CI (on clearance for just over 1/2 of MSRP) would be a much better choice than the 2313CI as it uses the more advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 as Theresa notes.
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post #14 of 21
12/2/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I would get, and I recently did, the 4311 as it has Audyssey XT32 which provides a dramatic improvement in sound quality.
Hey Theresa... Thanks for the reply. Can you go into detail on why I should get the Audyssey? As I said in my post, I’m a newbie so I’m trying to understand what I would be gaining and what are the differences? Thanks.
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post #15 of 21
12/2/12 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Unless you are specifically interested in the 4 models listed in this thread, you're really better served posting your requirements (be more specific as you really haven't indicated much in this respect) and budget in your own thread. Note that unlike 10 years ago, there is no longer any real "future proofing" more than maybe 2-3 years out as specs change every few years .... in fact in 2-3 years HDMI may no longer even be used. eek.gif A good rule of thumb is that the AVR should cost about 1/2 of the cost of your 5.1 setup as long as your feature/input/output requirements are met. For help with requirements, suggest you review post #2 in the Denon AVR-XX13 Owner's thread linked in my sig to determine which model would be appropriate for you needs. If you have any further Denon AVR related questions after that, feel free to post in that same thread. Based on your speaker package alone, the Denon AVR-4311CI (on clearance for just over 1/2 of MSRP) would be a much better choice than the 2313CI as it uses the more advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 as Theresa notes.
Jdsmoothie..... Thanks for your reply and help. Its a little overwhelming learning about all this stuff. I will start my own thread but I’m not sure what I would call it? Any suggestions? As far as the Denon 4311, what would I gain over the 2313? Being a newbie will all this stuff…. am I just paying for a lot of extra features I will never need or use? I don’t envision plugging extra amps, phones or extra stuff like that into the receiver. Right now our basic use consists of popping a DVD in and watching a movie or playing a single CD at a time and just enjoying great sounding music… nothing special. Not sure if the 4311 is overkill? Also, where would I find the 4311 at 50% off? Thanks again for all your help.
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post #16 of 21
12/2/12 at 1:53pm
You can title the thread whatever you want ... some just put a max budget in the title (ie. Receiver reco for $1000 budget and 5.1 speaker setup). Although the 2313CI would more than suffice, for you, if you really want to make your speaker setup "sing", and your budget can go a few hundred higher, the more advanced version of Audyssey XT32 would be what you're after not so much the extra features. If it seems a bit overwhelming for you, then go with the 2313CI although you can likely go with the 2113CI as well as the 2313CI simply offers a few more features rather than any better audio quality. The best reseller sources to "call" are AVS sales and Electronics Expo as they will generally sell for less than MSRP when you "call" as they list MSRP on their websites, although they are quickly selliing out of inventory if not already gone by now.

Also check the "Great Found Deals" forum ....

http://www.avsforum.com/f/122/general-great-found-deals

... noting the link to the 4311CI ....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1388717/denon-4311ci-ee-for-1329-99/0_100
Edited by jdsmoothie - 12/2/12 at 1:59pm
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post #17 of 21
12/2/12 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You can title the thread whatever you want ... some just put a max budget in the title (ie. Receiver reco for $1000 budget and 5.1 speaker setup). Although the 2313CI would more than suffice, for you, if you really want to make your speaker setup "sing", and your budget can go a few hundred higher, the more advanced version of Audyssey XT32 would be what you're after not so much the extra features. If it seems a bit overwhelming for you, then go with the 2313CI although you can likely go with the 2113CI as well as the 2313CI simply offers a few more features rather than any better audio quality. The best reseller sources to "call" are AVS sales and Electronics Expo as they will generally sell for less than MSRP when you "call" as they list MSRP on their websites, although they are quickly selliing out of inventory if not already gone by now.
Also check the "Great Found Deals" forum ....
http://www.avsforum.com/f/122/general-great-found-deals
... noting the link to the 4311CI ....
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1388717/denon-4311ci-ee-for-1329-99/0_100
Jdsmoothie…. Great stuff… Thanks! Price is not an object for me but I don’t like spending the extra money for nothing. The 4311 seems really nice though. Does the 4311 have more wattage or amperage as opposed to the 2313? I was told by the sales guy that the def–tech 8060st’s main tower speakers have separate amplifiers for the subs built into in each speaker. Supposedly the receiver doesn’t have to be as large or powerful because of this? Don’t know if I was being told misinformation from the best buy guy or what? Was just wondering if that’s what you meant when you said the 4311 would make them “sing”? Can you explain sing? Thanks.
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post #18 of 21
12/2/12 at 2:27pm
The Def Tech speakers are fairly efficient to begin with so generally won't draw more than 5W/CH so the difference in power between any of the models you might consider will be moot. Review post #2 in the Denon AVR-XX13 Owner's thread to review the features of the 2113CI and 2313CI to determine which would work best for you feature wise. The 4311CI simply uses a more advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which will provide for better audio fidelity from your speaker setup. If not that concerned, as I suggested, go with either the 2113CI or 2313CI.
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post #19 of 21
12/7/12 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The Def Tech speakers are fairly efficient to begin with so generally won't draw more than 5W/CH so the difference in power between any of the models you might consider will be moot. Review post #2 in the Denon AVR-XX13 Owner's thread to review the features of the 2113CI and 2313CI to determine which would work best for you feature wise. The 4311CI simply uses a more advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which will provide for better audio fidelity from your speaker setup. If not that concerned, as I suggested, go with either the 2113CI or 2313CI.
Jdsmoothie….. After your help and advice…. I decided on either the Denon 4311 or the Maranz SR 7007. I thought it would be best to upgrade to get the better sound quality. Based on my previous posts and information in this thread, which one would you recommend over the other? Which is a better receiver? Also, my speaker decision has changed. I don’t know if it will make a difference or not as far as speaker selection goes, but I am leaning towards getting a Paradyn 5.1 speaker system. If I do go with Paradyn… I will be getting Studio Reference 60s for the front with a 590 center channel and mini monitors for the rears, along with a studio reference sub. Any thoughts? Thanks.
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post #20 of 21
12/7/12 at 11:12am
The 7007 has Audyssey XT while the 4311CI has XT32 which is a significant improvement over just XT.
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post #21 of 21
12/7/12 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit 1 View Post

Jdsmoothie….. After your help and advice…. I decided on either the Denon 4311 or the Maranz SR 7007. I thought it would be best to upgrade to get the better sound quality. Based on my previous posts and information in this thread, which one would you recommend over the other? Which is a better receiver? Also, my speaker decision has changed. I don’t know if it will make a difference or not as far as speaker selection goes, but I am leaning towards getting a Paradyn 5.1 speaker system. If I do go with Paradyn… I will be getting Studio Reference 60s for the front with a 590 center channel and mini monitors for the rears, along with a studio reference sub. Any thoughts? Thanks.

On the plus side, the 4311CI is a level above the 7007 as it not only features 9.2 capability, but it also uses the more advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (so from an audio only perspective go for the 4311CI, that is if you can still find one as they are going like hotcakes at roughly 1/2 the MSRP of it's successor the new 4520CI). On the negative side, as the 7007 is the current year model, it offers a few newer features to include Spotify, gaplass ALAC/FLAC, and Zone 2 (HDMI).
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