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First DIY project for a guy looking to upgrade - multiple sealed 18s? - Page 5

post #121 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Heheh. Well... I waiting for monies .... I have a very large project to finish so I will have no choice but to wait it out. wink.gif
If I could order these right now, I would. I just happen to have the luxery of not having a choice but to wait and see how the HF turns out.
Yeah I'm aware of your uber Mains project smile.gif
post #122 of 1005
I have several questions for you guys.


1. I wonder how 2 cabs of duel opposed Dayton 18:HO's being powered with an iNuke 3000dsp would compare to a pair of single UXL-18's powered by the same iNuke 3000dsp?
2. How much power is required to get the 18: Dayton HO to go down deep and loud in a small sealed cab, like has been referenced in this thread?
3. How much does the LG clone go for? I have tried emailing Sanway multiple times about possibly purchasing one of these and they never emailed me back. frown.gif


Thanks in advanced for your helpful advise & opinions!.
post #123 of 1005
Well, sure I am (depriving myself of extension), scott, lol.

Unfortunately though, the the reality is there is no free lunch. Extension to 5-8hz? Yeah, great. Problem is of course it comes with a cost of time, space, and money.

I listen to zero music with 8hz program and less than 3% of the films I have seen or own have it in any reasonable amount.

An we've seen that a couple of these quad cabs will give me gobs of output down to 10hz alone, never mind room gain, so I think I'll be a-ok when it's all over.

I live and let live in the bass world now, lol, people are free to determine what they value and why or how it's meaningful/justified for them. smile.gif

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/4/12 at 6:19am
post #124 of 1005
BTW: I was pounding on this guy again this morning and I remain impressed!

smile.gif

James
post #125 of 1005
I still think this would be a great build.

4 x 18 ho's $936
1 Cerwin Vega CV5000 $699
1 Dcx2496 $299
2 dual opposed sealed cabs between 6 to 8 cu ft wire the drivers in parallel, plus hardware and finishing $215 est.
$2200
post #126 of 1005
^^^ agree.

i was reading about that amp last night. nice feature set and big power for the money. good match for a quad set of 18ho's. it can run on either a 110 or 220 circuit iirc.

as i mentioned before, if two front subs are your thing, i'd go with dual front facing cabs like 'not. i just think that having quad 18's staring at you increases the wow factor. :-)

beefy...





http://forum.speakerplans.com/cerwin-vega-cv5000_topic41807_page2.html
Edited by LTD02 - 11/3/12 at 10:24am
post #127 of 1005
That amp looks robust in a way that reminds me of the Marathon 5050. Wonder how the fan noise is?
post #128 of 1005
Nice work Josh, et al.

You gotta love Dayton (just add more to taste, as evidenced by PNW's Octagon).


Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

That amp looks robust in a way that reminds me of the Marathon 5050.


Which is essentially similar to the Grand Daddy of them all, the current big iron patriarch, .... Crest CA18.
post #129 of 1005
yeah...but what is the street price on the crest?
post #130 of 1005
What are you using for feet?

Because that is clearly super important!
post #131 of 1005
Thread Starter 
It's a shame we don't the T/S parameters for the Captivator drivers. It would be nice to know what to expect in terms of performance vs. multiples of the Daytons. It would be disappointing to pick up 8 of these drivers to only have equal or marginally better >20hz performance vs. a pair of ported Caps.
post #132 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

It's a shame we don't the T/S parameters for the Captivator drivers. It would be nice to know what to expect in terms of performance vs. multiples of the Daytons. It would be disappointing to pick up 8 of these drivers to only have equal or marginally better >20hz performance vs. a pair of ported Caps.

I expect them to pull maybe 116-117 dBs at 20hz. This is just guessing but the LMS 5400 does 108+ and the UXL-does 108 sealed. Both of those have more x-max. I would think the cap driver would do 106 dbs sealed and ricci said the port adds 10-12 dBs at and around tune. This is all just guessing though. So you want to build a system that can produce 120-122 dBs at 20hz and the low end will take care of itself. THis is what I have been doing with all my systems. The difference is how the drivers act down low and some are more linear than others with less rolloff.
post #133 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

It's a shame we don't the T/S parameters for the Captivator drivers. It would be nice to know what to expect in terms of performance vs. multiples of the Daytons. It would be disappointing to pick up 8 of these drivers to only have equal or marginally better >20hz performance vs. a pair of ported Caps.

True. But two quad cabs of Daytons with a capable amp would still be about $2500 (or less) vs. $5000 for a pair of Caps. I'd imagine 20hz output from (2) dayton quad cabs to be colossal in most rooms.

And then there's the sub 20 hz.

Knockout for the Daytons, imo.

James
post #134 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

It's a shame we don't the T/S parameters for the Captivator drivers. It would be nice to know what to expect in terms of performance vs. multiples of the Daytons. It would be disappointing to pick up 8 of these drivers to only have equal or marginally better >20hz performance vs. a pair of ported Caps.

Hahahah! Eight?!? Eight of these would decimate even two Captivators. Especially above 20hz.

Eight of these, sealed, with just ~600w each in the right sized cab would produce about 125dB @ 20hz before room gain. 130dB at 30hz and then in excess of 130dB above that. Then there is all that output below 20hz/17.5hz that the Caps would not have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Knockout for the Daytons, imo.
James

Especially considering the price... absolutely.
Edited by Scott Simonian - 11/5/12 at 9:48am
post #135 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hahahah! Eight?!? Eight of these would decimate even two Captivators. Especially above 20hz.
Eight of these, sealed, with just ~600w each in the right sized cab would produce about 125dB @ 20hz before room gain. 130dB at 30hz and then in excess of 130dB above that. Then there is all that output below 20hz/17.5hz that the Caps would not have.

How Scott? That means one will produce 107 dBs at 20hz and I don't see it coming that close to a LMS5400 which hit 108+.
post #136 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How Scott? That means one will produce 107 dBs at 20hz and I don't see it coming that close to a LMS5400 which hit 108+.

DaytonHO18RiccisingleFR.gif

Sooo 1 dB shy. wink.gif
post #137 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hahahah! Eight?!? Eight of these would decimate even two Captivators. Especially above 20hz.
Eight of these, sealed, with just ~600w each in the right sized cab would produce about 125dB @ 20hz before room gain. 130dB at 30hz and then in excess of 130dB above that. Then there is all that output below 20hz/17.5hz that the Caps would not have.
Especially considering the price... absolutely.

Eight is the number I had in mind. One thing you're assuming though is that the subs are either in the same cabinet or co-located. In my room, all 8 in one location would not be possible so I'm not likely to get close to +6 db for each additional driver. I will likely have 2 dual opposed up front, and then 2 more to the left/right side of the couch/LP. Just some food for thought. tongue.gif

Also, Scott your chart I'm assuming is using 1m as a reference point, not 2m as MK is quoting, correct?

100% agreed these things seem unbeatable for the price. So I'd be looking at 1866 for drivers, probably 400 or so in cabinet/materials, and 1200 for amp(s), a little cheaper if I get gutsy and pick up an LG clone. Not too bad. biggrin.gif

This stuff gets me excited, is that wrong? biggrin.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/5/12 at 10:12am
post #138 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Eight is the number I had in mind. One thing you're assuming though is that the subs are either in the same cabinet or co-located. In my room, all 8 in one location would not be possible so I'm not likely to get close to +6 db for each additional driver. I will likely have 2 dual opposed up front, and then 2 more to the left/right side of the couch/LP. Just some food for thought. tongue.gif
Also, Scott your chart I'm assuming is using 1m as a reference point, not 2m as MK is quoting, correct?
This stuff gets me excited, is that wrong? biggrin.gif

Well now.... these "assumtions" I'm making are in line with 'suggestions' of using two Captivators together and that was what my response was towards.

Either way, doesn't sound like anyone here is considering multiples LMS-U's, each of which cost as much as four Dayton HO18's.



But whatever, just trying to help.
post #139 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Well now.... these "assumtions" I'm making are in line with 'suggestions' of using two Captivators together and that was what my response was towards.
Either way, doesn't sound like anyone here is considering multiples LMS-U's, each of which cost as much as four Dayton HO18's.
But whatever, just trying to help.

No worries man - and I really do appreciate your help. Just trying to think out loud over here and want to make sure what I'm thinking of taking on will be worthwhile. biggrin.gif And yeah, multiples at 925/driver is a bit out of my 'experimentation' budget at the moment. mad.gif
post #140 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

yeah...but what is the street price on the crest?

I don't know, but something inline with a bullet proof, arc welder.

I'm not aware of any CV owners, but I've heard stories of Marathon failures. This is expensive, somewhat akin to the clone vs real LabGruppens, as I've never, ever heard of a LabGruppen failure, in any scenario. This is expensive, and clearly of significant value to a great many individuals worldwide.

As an aside, the clone amps are so damn attractive. But fo me it's so hard to assign any value to a product that is so volatile. I know considering failures, one can buy a few clones for the cost of a real deal. I don't like the load instability element too. Being around high quality pro gear, one sees they just just tool along all day in the worst imaginable conditions, insane duty factors, into stupid loads. That's high value.

Just my opinion. Hell, I own two QSC clones wink.gif Two EP4Ks.

For someone that doesn't need the ruggedness of the Crest, the CV, Crown etc are fine. So many advncements in SMPS, etc, .... awesome time for power amps.



Best of luck Andrew,

following along ....
post #141 of 1005
Keep Helping Scott, it's certainly driving more fun into the day!

I think Josh's pending session with the 18" HO (is that legal in his state...lol) has the potential to promptly render these as 'Sold Out'.

I'm another guy strongly considering a crazy move for 8-10 units; 8 up front in dual-opposed behind the screen and a pair of singles in the back/sides to tame the room.

Good Stuff.

Larry
post #142 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Eight is the number I had in mind.

lol i only want 1 (dual op)

i should email Erich see if hes gonna make a 4-5 CUFT dual op box
post #143 of 1005
Personally I think rolling the dice on the clones for 3-4dbs of additional output is insane when you have infinitely more reliable, honestly-produced options already on the table in this country.

my 2% of $1

James
post #144 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Eight is the number I had in mind. One thing you're assuming though is that the subs are either in the same cabinet or co-located. In my room, all 8 in one location would not be possible so I'm not likely to get close to +6 db for each additional driver. I will likely have 2 dual opposed up front, and then 2 more to the left/right side of the couch/LP. Just some food for thought. tongue.gif
Also, Scott your chart I'm assuming is using 1m as a reference point, not 2m as MK is quoting, correct?
100% agreed these things seem unbeatable for the price. So I'd be looking at 1866 for drivers, probably 400 or so in cabinet/materials, and 1200 for amp(s), a little cheaper if I get gutsy and pick up an LG clone. Not too bad. biggrin.gif
This stuff gets me excited, is that wrong? biggrin.gif

I'm always the turd in the punchbowl here cause I think I have bit different "value structure" than most in these parts and that's not to say or even imply that mine's "better/superior" in the slightest at all, it's just different.

For instance: headroom to me is worthless...now that will draw ire here! eek.giftongue.gif;)

If you're not driving loudspeakers or amplifiers to/past their limits in the first place, you're simply over-spending, imo. I've yet to see any evidence that supports the notion that well-constructed/designed components last considerably longer or are better performing at 70% of their "capacity" vs 50/60. And I guess I'm not one of the guys who needs to know they have another 10dbs left in the tank at 125dbs, lmao. Even at REFERENCE levels, 125db bass is already well out of whack with the balance of program material and no one listens at reference to begin with...ok, less than 1%. smile.gif

Case in point: $1200 for amplification for 2 (18") Dayton quad boxes is simply overkill...at least in my view, for likely 95% of the rooms out there...assuming people can grab a Crown XLS 5000 for 5-$600.

And spending money to kill something that's already dead doesn't make much sense to me.

You don't have to co-locate two of these monsters to know they will have prodigious output in almost any room. If Scott's plot is even remotely accurate, with 650 watts we already see 107dbs at 20 hz and 95dbs at 10hz. BEFORE ROOM GAIN. I already know what ONE does in mine. smile.gif

Now, TWO 12-14^3 QUAD CABS?! Jesus..what kind of output are people looking for would be my next question.

Personally- especially after seeing the models that have been run- I could not see my self spending a DIME more than $600 on a Crown XLS 5000 and pushing "just" 625 watts into each driver.

Can they take more? Sure/maybe, I guess. But again, what kind of output are you looking for would be my question and why (PAY) to start potentially running into excursion/thermal issues when you already have truckloads of output on hand, running within the gears' limits?

No offense to anyone here, just my take. Perhaps I underestimate one, two, or three things here:

1. the desired SPL of "bass"

2. The size of people's rooms.

3. Both.

At 120-125dbs I'm about at my limit and it seems to me that (2) of these quad cabs could do just than in my rather large rooms with "just" 2500 watts a cabinet after room gain damn near 10hz.


just looking out for our "budgets" by saving $600+, Gorilla!

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/5/12 at 11:17am
post #145 of 1005
Gorilla was infected by popalock a few weeks ago, he has what i call the bass plague, you can never get enough to be cured
post #146 of 1005
^ Yes, I think I've effectively avoided that so far, lol.

Matter of fact, I'm largely assuming that I'll need "more" already for my upcoming space but there's a chance I won't, we'll have to see I suppose. Either way, I guess l'll have something to keep me busy during these upcoming lovely Wisconsin months.

And again, I guess some people really like a $HIT TON of LFE cause you figure when I listen at about -10 on my MV dial, that calls for bass peaks ~105dbs...and even running at TEN dbs hot in the LFE dept I'm still at "just" 115dbs...much beyond that (and even there at times) it just starts to sound very unbalanced and, well, much too "bassy" for me.

To each, their own, for sure.

James
post #147 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Personally I think rolling the dice on the clones for 3-4dbs of additional output is insane when you have infinitely more reliable, honestly-produced options already on the table in this country.
my 2% of $1
James

Is value or "integrity" critical to you?

Maybe you should footnote your avatar.

VALUE is critical!!!!"*"

*As long as it is honestly-produced in the US.
post #148 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

DaytonHO18RiccisingleFR.gif
Sooo 1 dB shy. wink.gif

Is this 1 meter or 2 meters? Probably 1 meter which makes more sense.
post #149 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Is value or "integrity" critical to you?
Maybe you should footnote your avatar.
VALUE is critical!!!!"*"
*As long as it is honestly-produced in the US.

Ummm, well both I suppose to one extent or another. But you can throw the credibility issue and my respect for intellectual property and fair business rights out the window if it makes you feel better and just consider the spotty reliability and shipping/warranty process to get things repaired.

And "this country" was not an allusion to a us-produced amplifier, but rather (and crucially), simply product that's readily available without wiring money to China and waiting "x" number of days or weeks to receive it.

James
post #150 of 1005
Unibox and WinISD simulate at 1 meter.
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