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First DIY project for a guy looking to upgrade - multiple sealed 18s? - Page 6

post #151 of 1005
So figure 100+dbs @10 hz out of one quad at 2m's before room gain with ~2500 w's?

James
post #152 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I'm always the turd in the punchbowl here cause I think I have bit different "value structure" than most in these parts and that's not to say or even imply that mine's "better/superior" in the slightest at all, it's just different.
For instance: headroom to me is worthless...now that will draw ire here! eek.giftongue.gif;)
If you're not driving loudspeakers or amplifiers to/past their limits in the first place, you're simply over-spending, imo. I've yet to see any evidence that supports the notion that well-constructed/designed components last considerably longer or are better performing at 70% of their "capacity" vs 50/60. And I guess I'm not one of the guys who needs to know they have another 10dbs left in the tank at 125dbs, lmao. Even at REFERENCE levels, 125db bass is already well out of whack with the balance of program material and no one listens at reference to begin with...ok, less than 1%. smile.gif
Case in point: $1200 for amplification for 2 (18") Dayton quad boxes is simply overkill...at least in my view, for likely 95% of the rooms out there...assuming people can grab a Crown XLS 5000 for 5-$600.
And spending money to kill something that's already dead doesn't make much sense to me.
You don't have to co-locate two of these monsters to know they will have prodigious output in almost any room. If Scott's plot is even remotely accurate, with 650 watts we already see 107dbs at 20 hz and 95dbs at 10hz. BEFORE ROOM GAIN. I already know what ONE does in mine. smile.gif
Now, TWO 12-14^3 QUAD CABS?! Jesus..what kind of output are people looking for would be my next question.
Personally- especially after seeing the models that have been run- I could not see my self spending a DIME more than $600 on a Crown XLS 5000 and pushing "just" 625 watts into each driver.
Can they take more? Sure/maybe, I guess. But again, what kind of output are you looking for would be my question and why (PAY) to start potentially running into excursion/thermal issues when you already have truckloads of output on hand, running within the gears' limits?
No offense to anyone here, just my take. Perhaps I underestimate one, two, or three things here:
1. the desired SPL of "bass"
2. The size of people's rooms.
3. Both.
At 120-125dbs I'm about at my limit and it seems to me that (2) of these quad cabs could do just than in my rather large rooms with "just" 2500 watts a cabinet after room gain damn near 10hz.
just looking out for our "budgets" by saving $600+, Gorilla!
James

James,

Believe me buddy, if anyone appreciates value it's this guy. Like my other hobbies, it's not really about rationalizing the "need" for more power/drivers/headroom per-se - it's more like a perpetually evolving experiment. I agree during any reasonable length listening session, I'm not likely going to be jamming out to 130+DB blasts as I'd have no hearing left. But if I'm going to invoke a project like this, I don't want to be left underwhelmed. At times I feel the need to have my body assaulted by waves of bass. Come on guys, I know I'm not alone here! tongue.gif When considering how inexpensive these drivers are, the only thing holding most of us back is space, LOL. Sure, my testosterone is probably getting the better of me, but that's where the fun lies IMO. After all, what's the point of driving an 6, 7, or even 800+hp car when the speed limits around here are 65mph tops, right? biggrin.gif

In my situation I already own one crown amp and would surely grab another if something comes up in the 600.00 range again. Until then I suppose "only" one will have to do, heh. The LG clone is an option I'm not likely to exercise until they've come to some type of reliability and/or US based service plan. IF that ever happens of course.

As your signature says "A/V Fanaticism and Common Sense: Hopelessly, diametrically opposed from birth." Totally agreed from my perspective. biggrin.gif
post #153 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

lol i only want 1 (dual op)
i should email Erich see if hes gonna make a 4-5 CUFT dual op box

What would be the best enclosure size per 18" driver for this model?

Does PE offer an amplifier that could be used to power just one of them? There's going to be a lot of boxes cut within the next couple weeks and I could get some made up for this woofer with an option for a matching plate amp if needed.

Plus, with them being available at PE, I've got no problem driving there to pick one up to make sure it fits the enclosure. I will definitely get these made up (at least in singles) if I know the correct enclosure size needed.
post #154 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

What would be the best enclosure size per 18" driver for this model?
Does PE offer an amplifier that could be used to power just one of them? There's going to be a lot of boxes cut within the next couple weeks and I could get some made up for this woofer with an option for a matching plate amp if needed.
Plus, with them being available at PE, I've got no problem driving there to pick one up to make sure it fits the enclosure. I will definitely get these made up (at least in singles) if I know the correct enclosure size needed.

Erich,

It's looking like 3-4 for singles and 6-8 cubes for duals based on models. Truthfully though we will know more for sure once Josh and others complete some real world tests.

As for plate amps, the Dayton 1000 amp seems like it would work well? Thoughts guys? EDIT - This would work well for single cabs only, which it looks like what Erich is interested in producing.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-809
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/6/12 at 10:36am
post #155 of 1005
3.5-4.0 cubic feet per driver gives a qt in the range of 0.75-0.80, which is good from a driver protection perspective.

as with all sealed, you still have the relatively high slope rolloff, so any one of the plate amps with some sort of boost in the 20hz region.

the dayton spa 500 or 1000. the parametric eq could be used to bring up the bottom end (kind of), just like the others in our offline conversation.

because of the built in high pass filters, plate amps really aren't so great for smallish sealed.



craig uses the sa 1000 (not sure if/how it is custom modded for him) as a standalone for dual 18's whether mounted in a single cab or separates. no fan, rca inputs, customer friendly. not sure about impedance matching. i'll have to check on that.

nope. the drivers are 4 ohm and if using both connections, the minimum load must be 4 ohms total, so the drivers would have to be 8 ohms nominal if i'm reading the manual correctly. it doesn't indicate if the connections are parallel or series, i'm assuming parallel.

"Thoughts guys?"

gorilla, most plate amps have a 2nd order high pass filter built in around 18hz or so. that cuts down on the excursion. i didn't see your post before commenting. we are pretty much on the same page. :-)
Edited by LTD02 - 11/5/12 at 8:29pm
post #156 of 1005
3.5 cu ft should be an okay size for either Baltic birch or mdf.

The mdf box could go larger, Baltic could go a little bigger before needing to dip into a second sheet. Most of the boxes coming will be using parts from a second sheet of something anyway because the outer baffle will likely be mdf while the inner baffle is Baltic plywood.
post #157 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

3.5 cu ft should be an okay size for either Baltic birch or mdf.
The mdf box could go larger, Baltic could go a little bigger before needing to dip into a second sheet. Most of the boxes coming will be using parts from a second sheet of something anyway because the outer baffle will likely be mdf while the inner baffle is Baltic plywood.

It's my experience that mdf is harder to "finish" (stain/paint) than BB. So maybe make the inner baffle mdf to maintain a consistent finishing surface on the outer shell.

Just a thought.
post #158 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I expect them to pull maybe 116-117 dBs at 20hz. This is just guessing but the LMS 5400 does 108+ and the UXL-does 108 sealed. Both of those have more x-max. I would think the cap driver would do 106 dbs sealed and ricci said the port adds 10-12 dBs at and around tune. This is all just guessing though. So you want to build a system that can produce 120-122 dBs at 20hz and the low end will take care of itself. THis is what I have been doing with all my systems. The difference is how the drivers act down low and some are more linear than others with less rolloff.

James has it right, IMHO (except for the +10-12dB at 20 Hz with the ported Cap, which is not flat to 20 Hz). Usually I'm a fan of more of lesser throw drivers for the same price, but a single UXL will stomp a pair of this Dayton pro-driver-with-rubber-surround wannabe. 12mm of X-max? No bueno. I doubt they'll reach 116dB @ 20 Hz GP.

8 of them is a crap load of hardware and won't touch a quad of the UXL, which is less $, smaller and will leap tall buildings in a single bound. I don't believe any Dayton sub has ever been vetted, but no matter, this one is no different. This is strictly a ported sub with steep HPF, IMO. We shall see once Gorilla has been the guinea pig. biggrin.gif

Quad UXL-18s in 2 dual-opposed boxes, a pair of clones, proper signal shaping = <$5K and will send the dual Caps packing in every category. Octo-Daytons? Not so much. Just my opinion.
post #159 of 1005
A couple of things bosso:

First, I don't know if we know for certain that the Dayton has appreciably more "room" than 12mm- I'm not one for pushing components to or beyond their limits- but Josh's early impressions seem to indicate that it's a pretty safe bet it has a bit left in the tank beyond 12/13mm.

Second, the cost. Quad UXL's will run you $2120. 8 Daytons: $1864. $256 difference. The two quad cabs for the Daytons will be large, no doubt, but simply cost me one more sheet of BB at $70 in my market.

"this one is no different." I have no idea what criteria or data you use for such an assumption, but ok, I suppose. I have one in a sealed 3.5 cab and it has performed fantastically with 500 w's running into it, over the last two weeks. I'm actually quite impressed at what I'm getting for $249. Is it an Ultra or UXL? Of course not, but then, it's 1/4 - 1/2 the price. Perhaps we should wait until it IS vetted before concluding it cannot be used in well-executed sealed applications? tongue.gif;)biggrin.gif

I don't disagree with you in the size or total hardware depts, but I throw that out the window a bit in THIS forum, lol. A pair of 6' cabinets in these parts is amateur hour in my opinion, lol.

Last I'm not following you on the Cap specs...I always thought a 20hz tuned Cap WAS flat to 20hz (or even lower with room gain/at a reduced ouput)?

And again, a PAIR of Caps will run you $5,000. A PAIR of QUAD Daytons with 2500 watts per cab: ~$2500.

So even it they get close, most could prolly live with it and pocket the $2500...ditto for your $5,000 Dual UXL monsters.

I respect your expertise and knowledge it just seems to me that you MAY be being a bit harsh on this $250 driver that appears to have a lot going for it, early on.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/6/12 at 7:17am
post #160 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Usually I'm a fan of more of lesser throw drivers for the same price, but a single UXL will stomp a pair of this Dayton pro-driver-with-rubber-surround wannabe. 12mm of X-max? No bueno.
I don't believe any Dayton sub has ever been vetted, but no matter, this one is no different. This is strictly a ported sub with steep HPF, IMO. We shall see once Gorilla has been the guinea pig. biggrin.gif


I would take that bet. It does quite well in a sealed cab actually. I've been listening to it for a few days in my bedroom.

As far as xmax ratings are concerned see earlier comments in this thread. They are far from a reliable gauge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I've never played with the 15" but many many have and it's been klippel tested. No need to go there. Assuming the same excursion the 18 should give about 3dB more. It may have a little more xmech though.
As far as the xmax ratings here is the thing. There are a lot of drivers that claim 30mm xmax and produce enough mechanical racket at only 20mm to make you fear to drive them any further let alone consider it useful output to use. Then there are drivers that claim 9mm xmax that can be useful out at 15mm and won't be damaged by 20. With overhung motors which are the most common type there is rarely a definite and abrupt change in the sound a little past xmax.
With the RS18 it has a 13mm xmax rating which is probably the geometric mathematical rating, but the motor will drive the coil all of the way into the back plate which is about 32mm in as near as I can tell. It makes a lot less noise than many other drivers with longer excursion ratings on paper. It definitely does not suddenly fall all over itself at 13mm and still is doing just fine at about 20mm. That said it can be bottomed pretty hard so you don't want to go too much past there and will need to watch the power. I would suggest modeling to around 20mm excursion as the maximum input power. When I get a chance I will see what types of voltages it will take reliably in a couple of different sized sealed enclosures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Blasphemy! tongue.gif
Don't you know that 15 is always better than 13?!? rolleyes.gif
From what I've seen, the specified Xmax of the other RS series are straight overhang figures. Sometimes this simple calculation is very conservative (especially as the top plate gets taller), other times it can be optimistic where you have a short gap and very long coil.
In the end someone has to plug it in, observe and abuse a subwoofer driver a little to confirm how those numbers might be best put to use. While not an exact calculation, you can also gain some understanding of what is happening with a given design as you drive near and past Xmax if you compare the response curve with the BL dropping (80-50% gives good insight) and when the suspension stiffens. Since this change isn't there for the first 1/2-3/4 of the travel the response is not exact, but the general change in shape with dynamics is correct.
post #161 of 1005
^ +1.

It seems that every time I think I have been too harsh on the "spl drag race" aspect of the DIY forum here on avs, I immediately get a handful of examples that fortify it. I'm sorry but there's more to "bass life" than 130db output and sub 10hz response. You won't find it in 99.9% of the music produced and 98+% of film.

Again, I too have one in a sealed cab and it sounds excellent. Will it do 120dbs at 20hz? Prolly not, but what WILL for $250?

You simply cannot ignore price when making performance comparisons- and although it seems a number pay lip service to that aspect, there's not a lot of follow through.

The question for me is pretty straightforward: how does this driver compare to those in its class?

I looked long and hard for the best bass driver I could find ~$2-250 and I'm still pretty confident with my selection.


James
post #162 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Bosso - We may have mislead you if you read only the original post in the GTG thread showing the omnimic charts where I had something screwed up with one of the HPF's on my drivers.

From a recent test - I do have pretty darn flat extension way down below 20hz in 15hz tune. With that said, I would expect the multiple sealed daytons to easily better the <15hz area vs. the Caps. Of course this is in room response with no EQ or shaping applied. Here are my own measurements from my room:

From the GTG thread:
Here were my findings, 1/24 smoothing applied:

15hz tune vs. 20hz tune NO HPF

20hztunevs15hztunenoHPF.jpg

15hz tune with 14hz HPF vs. 20hz tune 19hz HPF
20hztunevs15hztunewithHPF.jpg
post #163 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

3.5 cu ft should be an okay size for either Baltic birch or mdf.
The mdf box could go larger, Baltic could go a little bigger before needing to dip into a second sheet. Most of the boxes coming will be using parts from a second sheet of something anyway because the outer baffle will likely be mdf while the inner baffle is Baltic plywood.

Erich - It's looking like 3.5 is the ideal size for singles. Would there be any chance for dual opposed around 7 cubes as well?
post #164 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

A couple of things bosso:
First, I don't know if we know for certain that the Dayton has appreciably more "room" than 12mm- I'm not one for pushing components to or beyond their limits- but Josh's early impressions seem to indicate that it's a pretty safe bet it has a bit left in the tank beyond 12/13mm.
Second, the cost. Quad UXL's will run you $2120. 8 Daytons: $1864. $256 difference. The two quad cabs for the Daytons will be large, no doubt, but simply cost me one more sheet of BB at $70 in my market.
"this one is no different." I have no idea what criteria or data you use for such an assumption, but ok, I suppose. I have one in a sealed 3.5 cab and it has performed fantastically with 500 w's running into it, over the last two weeks. I'm actually quite impressed at what I'm getting for $249. Is it an Ultra or UXL? Of course not, but then, it's 1/4 - 1/2 the price. Perhaps we should wait until it IS vetted before concluding it cannot be used in well-executed sealed applications? tongue.gif;)biggrin.gif
I don't disagree with you in the size or total hardware depts, but I throw that out the window a bit in THIS forum, lol. A pair of 6' cabinets in these parts is amateur hour in my opinion, lol.
Last I'm not following you on the Cap specs...I always thought a 20hz tuned Cap WAS flat to 20hz (or even lower with room gain/at a reduced ouput)?
And again, a PAIR of Caps will run you $5,000. A PAIR of QUAD Daytons with 2500 watts per cab: ~$2500.
So even it they get close, most could prolly live with it and pocket the $2500...ditto for your $5,000 Dual UXL monsters.
I respect your expertise and knowledge it just seems to me that you MAY be being a bit harsh on this $250 driver that appears to have a lot going for it, early on.
James

So, your big boxes will be raw plywood held together with duct tape? rolleyes.gif We both know it takes a bit more than a sheet of plywood to build a big, resonant-free quad driver box that doesn't look like a used shipping crate. You can wait if you feel the need. My point of reference is that I've used just about every dayton sub driver over the years. No comparison to the UXL-class drivers from the past and others available today.

The Cap FR Jeff posted back when is -5dB @ 20 Hz... with DSP correction, you can make any sub dead flat, but that doesn't mean it keeps its output flat at 20 Hz with the original response. Put it this way, I'll have to see proof that it has a 12dB advantage at 20 Hz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I would take that bet. It does quite well in a sealed cab actually. I've been listening to it for a few days in my bedroom.
As far as xmax ratings are concerned see earlier comments in this thread. They are far from a reliable gauge.

Yer on. cool.gif

When will you post the results to compare it to the UXL? I'll gladly eat my words if I have to then. Until then, it's a 12 mm Dayton. wink.gif
post #165 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Bosso - We may have mislead you if you read only the original post in the GTG thread showing the omnimic charts where I had something screwed up with one of the HPF's on my drivers.
From a recent test - I do have pretty darn flat extension way down below 20hz in 15hz tune. With that said, I would expect the multiple sealed daytons to easily better the <15hz area vs. the Caps. Of course this is in room response with no EQ or shaping applied. Here are my own measurements from my room:
From the GTG thread:
Here were my findings, 1/24 smoothing applied:

15hz tune vs. 20hz tune NO HPF

20hztunevs15hztunenoHPF.jpg
15hz tune with 14hz HPF vs. 20hz tune 19hz HPF
20hztunevs15hztunewithHPF.jpg

I was commenting on the thought that the Cap somehow has a 12dB advantage at 20 Hz, which it does not, IMO. Yes, I saw your in-room measurements. I appreciate the data, but it's not relevant to my comment. smile.gif
post #166 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

So, your big boxes will be raw plywood held together with duct tape? rolleyes.gif We both know it takes a bit more than a sheet of plywood to build a big, resonant-free quad driver box that doesn't look like a used shipping crate. You can wait if you feel the need. My point of reference is that I've used just about every dayton sub driver over the years. No comparison to the UXL-class drivers from the past and others available today.
The Cap FR Jeff posted back when is -5dB @ 20 Hz... with DSP correction, you can make any sub dead flat, but that doesn't mean it keeps its output flat at 20 Hz with the original response. Put it this way, I'll have to see proof that it has a 12dB advantage at 20 Hz
Yer on. cool.gif
When will you post the results to compare it to the UXL? I'll gladly eat my words if I have to then. Until then, it's a 12 mm Dayton. wink.gif

Hey Bosso,
I was guessing because the CHT sub hit 111 dBs at 20hz so I figured a 30 x-max driver in the cap can do a bit more than the CHT. If it does not have that advantage then the tactile feeling everyone talks about is either a peak around 30-40hz or distortion below tune when running high spl?

BTW, I had Adam(Madaeel) over this weekend to hear the room and he is hooked!
post #167 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

So, your big boxes will be raw plywood held together with duct tape? rolleyes.gif We both know it takes a bit more than a sheet of plywood to build a big, resonant-free quad driver box that doesn't look like a used shipping crate. You can wait if you feel the need. My point of reference is that I've used just about every dayton sub driver over the years. No comparison to the UXL-class drivers from the past and others available today.
The Cap FR Jeff posted back when is -5dB @ 20 Hz... with DSP correction, you can make any sub dead flat, but that doesn't mean it keeps its output flat at 20 Hz with the original response. Put it this way, I'll have to see proof that it has a 12dB advantage at 20 Hz
Yer on. cool.gif
When will you post the results to compare it to the UXL? I'll gladly eat my words if I have to then. Until then, it's a 12 mm Dayton. wink.gif


Ummmmm, no, they (the cabinets) will not be utilizing duct tape. And no they won't be done in a day.

But- crucially of course- neither will your dual opposed UXL cabs. I did a direct comparison of the costs of either build- and the latter (that you proposed earlier to be cheaper) is almost certainly going to cost more- albeit not a mountain of money, but more, still. Simple arithmetic, I'm afraid.

And perhaps you have me confused with someone else as I don't recall making any specific comments on the Caps response, but rather, merely suggesting that a pair (of Caps) may best (2) sealed quad dayton cabinets around the 20 hz mark. Now if even THAT isn't an advantage for the JTR's then one (especially a capable DIY'er) REALLY needs to start questioning the decision to spend $5k on a pair when, again, (2) quad dayton cabinets and 2500 watts per, will total around HALF that figure.

They (daytons drivers) don't compare to UXLs?

Jesus. Again. Of course they do not, as they're (Dayton subs) all 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2 the price of a UXL. Who in their right mind would expect them to?


I guess I'm missing the heart of the contention somewhere. If you think they're poor performers, over-priced, or flat-out garbage please provide some evidence to support that claim.

Else I'm hearing/reading nothing that negates a very basic premise that I would assume most everyone else here would agree with: that the Dayton 18" HO subwoofer is thus far a great driver for $250.


James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/6/12 at 10:18am
post #168 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

So, your big boxes will be raw plywood held together with duct tape? rolleyes.gif We both know it takes a bit more than a sheet of plywood to build a big, resonant-free quad driver box that doesn't look like a used shipping crate. You can wait if you feel the need. My point of reference is that I've used just about every dayton sub driver over the years. No comparison to the UXL-class drivers from the past and others available today.
The Cap FR Jeff posted back when is -5dB @ 20 Hz... with DSP correction, you can make any sub dead flat, but that doesn't mean it keeps its output flat at 20 Hz with the original response. Put it this way, I'll have to see proof that it has a 12dB advantage at 20 Hz
Yer on. cool.gif
When will you post the results to compare it to the UXL? I'll gladly eat my words if I have to then. Until then, it's a 12 mm Dayton. wink.gif


Basically, it sounds like you need the parts express website to read

"xmax: 20mm"

and then all would be ok and this would magically morph to a "great driver...for the money"?

I say such because it appears that Ricci seems pretty confident that it's solid to at least there after some preliminary testing.

And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Josh, please correct me if that's off-base.

And mind you, I"m not even purporting that a PAIR of dayton 18's will EXCEED the performance of an UXL, but simply saying that it's (dayton 18") readily available and likely, quite a bargain in a competently constructed, dual opposed cabinet.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/6/12 at 10:19am
post #169 of 1005
Oh boy.
post #170 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Yer on. cool.gif
When will you post the results to compare it to the UXL? I'll gladly eat my words if I have to then. Until then, it's a 12 mm Dayton. wink.gif

Haha! I think i might be getting it done this Sat. we are supposed to be sunny and 60deg.

If I win... You have to promote a ported subwoofer build to someone in a public thread using Dayton products! biggrin.gif
post #171 of 1005
I don't mean to be contentious, but I'm really trying to understand the angle, here.

To me it's like saying the BMW 3 series is not a well-performing car for its $45k price tag because a $90,000 Z06 will handily outperform it. rolleyes.gif

James
post #172 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I don't mean to be contentious, but I'm really trying to understand the angle, here.

To me it's like saying the BMW 3 series is not a well-performing car for its $45k price tag because a $90,000 Z06 will handily outperform it. rolleyes.gif

James

Stop trying to derail the argument with logic! wink.gif
post #173 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Just a curious model for myself and others. A ported UXL-18 in 8 cubes and 20hz tune, 19hz HPF and 2500 watts vs. sealed UXL-18 in 4.5 cubes and 2500 watts vs. dual sealed daytons and 2500 watts in 7 cubes:

I'd imagine the UXL is "somewhat similar" to the Captivator driver, albeit with far less power handling capability so add maybe 2-3db for the Cap? In this example looks like a 6-7db increase in efficiency in sealed vs. ported, although the ported is in a much larger box.

2xdaytonvssealeduxlvsporteduxl.jpg
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/6/12 at 10:59am
post #174 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I don't mean to be contentious, but I'm really trying to understand the angle, here.
To me it's like saying the BMW 3 series is not a well-performing car for its $45k price tag because a $90,000 Z06 will handily outperform it. rolleyes.gif
James

People who DIY would like the performance of a Z06 at a 328i price point.

Until you grasp the concept that DIY is more than buying an entry level product for the cheapest amount you can and only playing it at levels that YOU are comfortable with, then you are going to keep bring up the same argument.

Value, defined by most would be to get the MOST (performance) for their $.
post #175 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

People who DIY would like the performance of a Z06 at a 328i price point.
Until you grasp the concept that DIY is more than buying an entry level product for the cheapest amount you can and only playing it at levels that YOU are comfortable with, then you are going to keep bring up the same argument.
Value, defined by most would be to get the MOST (performance) for their $.

I'm sorry for your misunderstanding sir, but I have a firm grasp on the matter at hand, thanks. And I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't mis-apply my appropriate, context-integral analogy elsewhere and directly (or indirectly) inhibit its intent.

And it (the matter at hand) of course has absolutely nothing to do with MY (or anyone else's for that matter) preference for anything- including playback level(s). Sigh. Simply a strawman contention that adds nothing productive to the discussion.

Finally, your assumed understanding of my "definition"/position of/on DIY is atrociously inaccurate, and well, frankly, dumb, so I'd appreciate it if you would cease your proliferation of it here or elsewhere.

thanks in advance.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/6/12 at 11:13am
post #176 of 1005
This thread needs 1,000cc of bass, pronto!
post #177 of 1005
^ and 10,000 of reading comprehension and retention, apparently.


James
post #178 of 1005
Gorilla is on the fence still. I think you should order another three 18HO's and carry the torch for a little while longer. wink.gif
post #179 of 1005
Personally, I'm not losing my mind about it, but I'm just asking for a (the) comparable $1,000 passive option(s).

I don't doubt that the UXL/21" duals would be awesome and may even surpass it (we'll see), but what's left after that in the the $1,000 range, a single Ultra/XXX?

I'm simply saying that for those who have the space, a quad cab, or, ok, a pair of duals of these should offer fantastic performance for ~$1,000.

James
post #180 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Personally, I'm not losing my mind about it, but I'm just asking for a (the) comparable $1,000 passive option(s).
I don't doubt that the UXL/21" duals would be awesome and may even surpass it (we'll see), but what's left after that in the the $1,000 range, a single Ultra/XXX?
I'm simply saying that for those who have the space, a quad cab, or, ok, a pair of duals of these should offer fantastic performance for ~$1,000.
James

That modeling was for the UXL-18 as the 21's would best all for sure(XXX will be a challenge). I am using a $175 driver and they work awesome. Less rolloff than my CHT subs which is similar in design as the daytons(It appears that way). They both work great but the little drivers have more x-max with less rolloff and seem to dig deeper and sound deeper. I have never experienced some of the effects I am now. Maybe Josh's tests will show this to be THE driver to get, that would be nice and I hope so. Either way it already sounds to be as good as the SSD 18's. Maybe it can beat the Fi Q18 as well.
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