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First DIY project for a guy looking to upgrade - multiple sealed 18s? - Page 7

post #181 of 994
11/6/12 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Gorilla is on the fence still. I think you should order another three 18HO's and carry the torch for a little while longer. wink.gif

Oh I'm about 90% - just trying to ensure my decision is well thought out. Honestly I don't see any viable alternatives in this range outside of the UXL. Also trying to decide if I should order 2 or 4 of them to start with. I'm also selling some speakers I have laying around this weekend which should provide ample funding for this project. This way wifey can't complain TOO much about using up funds, heh. biggrin.gif
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post #182 of 994
11/6/12 at 11:55am
What kind of amp will you be using you think?
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post #183 of 994
11/6/12 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Also trying to decide if I should order 2 or 4 of them to start with.
Im thinking 8 would be just right! biggrin.gif
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post #184 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:01pm
Four per side.

9493488.jpg
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post #185 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

What kind of amp will you be using you think?

For now, my Crown XLS5000 will have to do. We'll see how it does in the lower frequency ranges and decide if I'm going to buy a second similar amp or try to find something like a peavey IPR or LG clone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Im thinking 8 would be just right! biggrin.gif

I agree 8 looks like the magic number assuming they work out as well as they seem they will. Before I drop 2k on drivers, it would be nice to bust out a prototype or two though. biggrin.gif I think Josh is going to try to get some Databass testing done this weekend with this guy which should help relieve some concerns. biggrin.gif
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post #186 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Four per side.
9493488.jpg

Apparently my server at work doesn't seem to like your picture - What are you posting here man??? Now I'm intrigued, biggrin.gif: D LOL!!

"The page you are trying to browse to is categorized as "Obscene/Tasteless"
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/6/12 at 12:19pm
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post #187 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Finally, your assumed understanding of my "definition"/position of/on DIY is atrociously inaccurate, and well, frankly, dumb, so I'd appreciate it if you would cease your proliferation of it here or elsewhere.
thanks in advance.
James

Thank you for the direct insult.

All I was getting that was that everyone of your posts are a buzzkill bro. I've been enjoying reading these DIY threads, but it seems like everytime I read one of your responses your wining and constant need to question why other people would feel the need to do "this or that" is blahzay.

Not intending to initiate conflict, I just feel like you sound like a broken record. I enjoy these forums to escape nagging females that feel the need to question everything all day everyday.

Gorilla, why don't you try to scoop up 1 UXL and a pair of the HO's, and compere them directly so you can be better informed as to what you would be pleased with in your space. If you prefer the UXL over the HO's PE will exchange them easily. I am unsure if the same can be said about the UXL, but I can guarantee you could sell it in the box you constructed and breakeven.

I find most the planning stages of DIY almost as fun as construction (minus sanding) and implementation.
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post #188 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Oh I'm about 90% - just trying to ensure my decision is well thought out. Honestly I don't see any viable alternatives in this range outside of the UXL. Also trying to decide if I should order 2 or 4 of them to start with.

If you aren't 100% locked into 18's the LMS-R seems like a decent alternative. Food for thought.
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post #189 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Apparently my server at work doesn't seem to like your picture - What are you posting here man??? Now I'm intrigued, biggrin.gif: D LOL!!
"The page you are trying to browse to is categorized as "Obscene/Tasteless"

Lol

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post #190 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:28pm
I don't believe the LMS-R will be in stock until early next year though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

If you aren't 100% locked into 18's the LMS-R seems like a decent alternative. Food for thought.
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post #191 of 994
11/6/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Thank you for the direct insult.
All I was getting that was that everyone of your posts are a buzzkill bro. I've been enjoying reading these DIY threads, but it seems like everytime I read one of your responses your wining and constant need to question why other people would feel the need to do "this or that" is blahzay.
Not intending to initiate conflict, I just feel like you sound like a broken record. I enjoy these forums to escape nagging females that feel the need to question everything all day everyday.
Gorilla, why don't you try to scoop up 1 UXL and a pair of the HO's, and compere them directly so you can be better informed as to what you would be pleased with in your space. If you prefer the UXL over the HO's PE will exchange them easily. I am unsure if the same can be said about the UXL, but I can guarantee you could sell it in the box you constructed and breakeven.
I find most the planning stages of DIY almost as fun as construction (minus sanding) and implementation.

This post should be framed. Pot, meet kettle. Perhaps you should check your pockets for stones (read: more carefully measure your own posts and others) before wondering aloud why there's "conflict". You could start with this one.

Oh and by the way, there's an infinitely handy "IGNORE" function built into this site, so if you find my posts so egregiously inappropriate and bothersome, I'd suggest using it.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/7/12 at 5:58am
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post #192 of 994
11/6/12 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Is this 1 meter or 2 meters? Probably 1 meter which makes more sense.

Perfect thing to come back to, keep in mind many read these numbers and is what sparked the overkill convo that has ensued. Who actually listens at 1m? I listen at over 3m from my subs, so more capability is needed in my space. Just sayin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Erich,
It's looking like 3-4 for singles and 6-8 cubes for duals based on models. Truthfully though we will know more for sure once Josh and others complete some real world tests.
As for plate amps, the Dayton 1000 amp seems like it would work well? Thoughts guys? EDIT - This would work well for single cabs only, which it looks like what Erich is interested in producing.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-809

Once again, that subsonic filter is a no-go for me to couple with a D.O. box setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Oh boy.

No kidding, guys the discussion is simple, quad UXL's or 8 daytons. Pick one and go! hehe. Either way you are going to get where you want to be, and most likely be happy as clam. Price difference of $250 or whatever is neither here nor there once all is said and done.
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post #193 of 994
11/6/12 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Haha! I think i might be getting it done this Sat. we are supposed to be sunny and 60deg.
If I win... You have to promote a ported subwoofer build to someone in a public thread using Dayton products! biggrin.gif

It's a deal, bro. If I win, I'll take the added data to your site as payment enough. cool.gif
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post #194 of 994
11/6/12 at 8:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

Gorilla was infected by popalock a few weeks ago, he has what i call the bass plague, you can never get enough to be cured

popalock and -- somewhat ironically -- Jeff. Note to self; never hand either of those guys the remote until after you've put in your ear plugs... tongue.gif
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post #195 of 994
11/6/12 at 9:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Oh I'm about 90% - just trying to ensure my decision is well thought out. Honestly I don't see any viable alternatives in this range outside of the UXL.

Well then, since you're still teetering on the brink... what about the new SI drivers? Might be worth investigating.
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post #196 of 994
11/7/12 at 4:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Well then, since you're still teetering on the brink... what about the new SI drivers? Might be worth investigating.

I've seen that thread and they are intriguing for sure. IF they ever come to production and prove to be reliable, they will be a killer value. Much like the more powerful Peavey IPR series amps I guess. biggrin.gif However, I'm not quite that patient. tongue.gif The Dayton drivers look to be similar in performance capability and are available from a reliable vendor which is what is making this choice easier.
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post #197 of 994
11/7/12 at 5:11am

Give me money now, and I'll give you woofers one day, maybe.cool.gif

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post #198 of 994
11/7/12 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I've seen that thread and they are intriguing for sure. IF they ever come to production and prove to be reliable, they will be a killer value. Much like the more powerful Peavey IPR series amps I guess. biggrin.gif However, I'm not quite that patient. tongue.gifThe Dayton drivers look to be similar in performance capability and are available from a reliable vendor which is what is making this choice easier.

Exactly and a wise choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Give me money now, and I'll give you woofers one day, maybe.cool.gif

Heh. Yeah, really. But we sound like the a-holes online cuz we point out the obvious fact that these SI don't exist yet to the public. Don't say that though because "they are in production". That and the owner has one. We can't forget that.
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post #199 of 994
11/7/12 at 1:14pm
Thread Starter 
Here is my best guess as to how (2) Dual opposed Dayton cabinets will perform compared to the Caps.

Comparison of (4) dayton drivers in 14 cubes vs. 2 UXL-18's, ported, in 16 total cubes tuned to 19hz. Both being fed 5000 watts. It takes >30hz for the Daytons to really take over. Man, that port really adds a lot of efficiency around 20hz!

4xdayton18vs2porteduxl18s.jpg


NOW - moving to eight drivers and 10,000 watts, and assuming co-location...it's a total domination in favor of the Daytons below and above 20hz....BUT we're also talking 28 cubic feet of enclosures, and TWICE the power lol. If I subtract out 6 DB or so from not being co-located, I don't think I'm going to be gaining a whole lot >20hz. frown.gif I know my original goal was to pick up some <20hz content, but not if it means it will come at the expense of midbass slam.

8xdaytonsvs2porteduxls.jpg

Am I going to have to remove a wall and go to 16 drivers?? LOL!
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/7/12 at 1:26pm
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post #200 of 994
11/7/12 at 7:23pm
gorilla, your model looks to be right and i've been noodling it around because something in my intuition wasn't jiving with the numbers on the screen. that driver has a pe rating of 1200 watts. if you are going to dump 5000 watts into a driver that is 0.5% efficient, you will need to figure out what to do with the 4975 watts that are being turned into heat around the tuning frequency. at the tuning frequency, driver motion is very low too in a ported design, so very limited air cooling. room heaters are 1500 watts or so, so the amount of heat building up in the coil at 4975 watts would be like three room heaters with no fans on them. that's going to cook the coils in relatively short order.

the b&c21 with a 6" coil and is designed for maximum cooling in a pro audio setting doesn't even have a 5kw rating. it is rated at 4w. i forget if the uxl has a 4" coil or smaller, but even at 4", that would translate to something more like 2600 watts if it had the same kind of cooling tech in the b&c, which it does not.
Edited by LTD02 - 11/7/12 at 7:29pm
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post #201 of 994
11/7/12 at 7:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

gorilla, your model looks to be right and i've been noodling it around because something in my intuition wasn't jiving with the numbers on the screen. that driver has a pe rating of 1200 watts. if you are going to dump 5000 watts into a driver that is 0.5% efficient, you will need to figure out what to do with the 4975 watts that are being turned into heat around the tuning frequency. at the tuning frequency, driver motion is very low too in a ported design, so very limited air cooling. room heaters are 1500 watts or so, so the amount of heat building up in the coil at 4975 watts would be like three room heaters with no fans on them. that's going to cook the coils in relatively short order.
the b&c21 with a 6" coil and is designed for maximum cooling in a pro audio setting doesn't even have a 5kw rating. it is rated at 4w. i forget if the uxl has a 4" coil or smaller, but even at 4", that would translate to something more like 2600 watts if it had the same kind of cooling tech in the b&c, which it does not.

Ltd - the Uxl model above depicts 2 drivers which would be 2500 per which is still well over thier rated capacity. I was just trying to predict (by best guess) how the ported caps would model in a similar scenario with typical driver characteristics. I know I'm still a bit off, but it was just more of me thinking out loud. Bah.
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post #202 of 994
11/7/12 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Here is my best guess as to how (2) Dual opposed Dayton cabinets will perform compared to the Caps.

Comparison of (4) dayton drivers in 14 cubes vs. 2 UXL-18's, ported, in 16 total cubes tuned to 19hz. Both being fed 5000 watts. It takes >30hz for the Daytons to really take over. Man, that port really adds a lot of efficiency around 20hz!

It sure looks that way, but I'm pretty sure your graph assumes the port doesn't compress or change behavior all the way on up to 124dB @ 1m. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that's a bit optimistic. wink.gif

One of the big trade offs which is always tricky to decide on is the efficiency of the larger box and port vs. dynamic linearity of the sealed system which doesn't compress or change response shape as dramatically until you get a good bit past Xmax. With the port, you can pretty well expect that compression starts to be observed to some degree with air velocities above ~10m/s, with very obvious compression at the point your ideal model hits about 30m/s. Along with airflow and excursion issues, the benefit of less power/current per voice coil is another benefit to multiple sealed drivers. Both approaches have their applications, but once you set some upper limit on box volume but are willing/able to add power or drivers, the sealed option can look more and more attractive. Obviously a sealed design will also be more straight forward in construction and build for a custom project, while also having higher confidence in the end result.
Quote:
NOW - moving to eight drivers and 10,000 watts, and assuming co-location...it's a total domination in favor of the Daytons below and above 20hz....BUT we're also talking 28 cubic feet of enclosures, and TWICE the power lol. If I subtract out 6 DB or so from not being co-located, I don't think I'm going to be gaining a whole lot >20hz. frown.gif I know my original goal was to pick up some <20hz content, but not if it means it will come at the expense of midbass slam.

Below 25-30Hz you can almost certainly count on effective coupling between drivers in the room, ie double the drivers producing equal level = +6dB.
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post #203 of 994
11/7/12 at 8:32pm
"Ltd - the Uxl model above depicts 2 drivers which would be 2500 per which is still well over thier rated capacity. I was just trying to predict (by best guess) how the ported caps would model in a similar scenario with typical driver characteristics. I know I'm still a bit off, but it was just more of me thinking out loud. Bah."

ah, not sure how i missed that. still seems a little rich, but obviously no where near as bad 5kw through 1 driver that i thought you were talking about.
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post #204 of 994
11/8/12 at 5:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

It sure looks that way, but I'm pretty sure your graph assumes the port doesn't compress or change behavior all the way on up to 124dB @ 1m. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that's a bit optimistic. wink.gif
One of the big trade offs which is always tricky to decide on is the efficiency of the larger box and port vs. dynamic linearity of the sealed system which doesn't compress or change response shape as dramatically until you get a good bit past Xmax. With the port, you can pretty well expect that compression starts to be observed to some degree with air velocities above ~10m/s, with very obvious compression at the point your ideal model hits about 30m/s. Along with airflow and excursion issues, the benefit of less power/current per voice coil is another benefit to multiple sealed drivers. Both approaches have their applications, but once you set some upper limit on box volume but are willing/able to add power or drivers, the sealed option can look more and more attractive. Obviously a sealed design will also be more straight forward in construction and build for a custom project, while also having higher confidence in the end result.
Below 25-30Hz you can almost certainly count on effective coupling between drivers in the room, ie double the drivers producing equal level = +6dB.

There's always something to consider that's not always obvious in the models and you've shed some light on the compression aspects which I'd overlooked. Great input once again Mark, thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Ltd - the Uxl model above depicts 2 drivers which would be 2500 per which is still well over their rated capacity. I was just trying to predict (by best guess) how the ported caps would model in a similar scenario with typical driver characteristics. I know I'm still a bit off, but it was just more of me thinking out loud. Bah."
ah, not sure how i missed that. still seems a little rich, but obviously no where near as bad 5kw through 1 driver that i thought you were talking about.

Agreed, they're still overloaded. The Caps are rated to 4k watts RMS so I figured modeling these guys with 2500 or so should be somewhat 'close' to what I had graphed - although I knew I was overlooking something like not considering compression as Mark pointed out above. biggrin.gif
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post #205 of 994
11/8/12 at 10:22am
Gorilla and all:

One thing I will say about this driver is that you won't get tired of looking at it. It reall does have great aesthetic to it...looks much pricier and "finished" than the price would suggest. I know, I need to get a better pic, lol.


9D398C9E-2A07-4631-A4AA-29248ACD6252-416-0000002F436F55FB.jpg





James
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post #206 of 994
11/8/12 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Gorilla and all:
One thing I will say about this driver is that you won't get tired of looking at it. It reall does have great aesthetic to it...looks much pricier and "finished" than the price would suggest. James

*proceeds to post worst picture ever of said driver.*


Duped by MasterMaybe.

tongue.gif
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post #207 of 994
11/8/12 at 10:37am
I can't find those close-ups I had. I'll look again. All those pics I took off my iphone were $hit due to lighting I'll get to better ones in the next couple.

Tough crowd, these DIYer's. lmao


James
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post #208 of 994
11/8/12 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

*proceeds to post worst picture ever of said driver.*
Duped by MasterMaybe.
tongue.gif

Ha! No doubt.


How about this?



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post #209 of 994
11/8/12 at 10:40am
here's a few...

B79DC03B-7B28-4D32-8D2C-F6DA6C894429-1549-000000B8AE99F5B8.jpg

DA77227B-75ED-4DE5-919B-45588BA9390D-854-0000006321E55799.jpg

90A212F9-0A25-4B5F-8027-47A74888CD55-854-000000632D1B9DC8.jpg

052AD81B-AF8F-4550-AAC9-1D1FB10521E3-854-000000633B58A219.jpg

F9B3E5C6-E36E-41A1-83E4-461FC5FCAD8D-854-000000634EBCC3B6.jpg

A5CD70C9-4491-448F-BF0F-1B78D8A00182-534-0000003177408CBA.jpg


James
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post #210 of 994
11/8/12 at 10:42am
Thread Starter 
James, that looks great - thanks for sharing. Hopefully will have something of my own to share in not too long. biggrin.gif
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