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First DIY project for a guy looking to upgrade - multiple sealed 18s? - Page 13

post #361 of 961
11/19/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

This logic has me and my LMS-U's sweating... We'll see how things play out if/when I make it up to Gorillas for some official head-to-head comparisons (contingent on my Clone being repaired).
If 2 HO's will better one LMS-U for a little more than 1/2 the price and 1/4 the wattage, the HO's may be the next big thing in the DIY community.
How about this for reference. For the cost of three (3) submersives, one could have the performance of notynt.
Yeah, reading that statement again makes me think these HO's (at their current price-point) are well on their way to being the next big thing.

The LMS 5400 has less rolloff and more output down at 10hz than dual HO's by 3 dBs or so. The real kicker is 4 of these will equal one LMS 5400 in price and 4 of these will have 4 dBs more at 10hz for the same price! Yes, these are the best bang for buck out there right now. They take up much more room though needing so many to equal or surpass the LMS5400. A wall of these should do just fine!
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post #362 of 961
11/19/12 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I'm waiting for some sicko to do 16 of these off 2 LG14K clones. Popalock - where you at??? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
16 Dayton HO 18s = 3732 (maybe cheaper if they can further discount)
2 LG clone 14K's = 1700
Minidsp = 165
Total = 5597 plus cabinets and finishing.

Under $6k...Hence my Submersive reference.

So I woke up yesterday and that's all I could think about. My wife was like, "why are you being so quiet today? Are you mad at me?"

I said that everything was fine. Later on in the day she caught me in the theater with the measuring tape...

Damn! Busted... Then the questions start to come...

I would do 4 quad opposed cabinets somewhat similar to Gorillas dimensions x 2 for each cab. I'd have to modify my center channel stand and lay the cabs on their sides, but I could make it work. Two cabs (8 subs) in front and two cabs (8 subs) behind my seats...


Have I thought about it? Extensively...
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post #363 of 961
11/19/12 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The LMS 5400 has less rolloff and more output down at 10hz than dual HO's by 3 dBs or so. The real kicker is 4 of these will equal one LMS 5400 in price and 4 of these will have 4 dBs more at 10hz for the same price! Yes, these are the best bang for buck out there right now. They take up much more room though needing so many to equal or surpass the LMS5400. A wall of these should do just fine!

Agree on all fronts...

Walls of woofage is right up your alley MK.

Oh yeah...

One quad opposed cab per Clone channel... Perfect...
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post #364 of 961
11/19/12 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Here ya go. Had to include sims of the two at -10dB down because with both systems they go off the chart from ~30hz and up. tongue.gif
Both are very capable and will more than likely satisfy even the most die hard bass fan. Both should sound incredible. They are different though. It would cost less than $2,000 for eight Dayton drivers and for most people four XXX18's would run ~$3,000. The XXX18's are the superior driver down low with some mechanical headroom left on the table. The Daytons, not so much but these are modelled within reason and should sound very good.
8xRS18HOvs4xXXX18.gif

Ok, all things considered with the exception of space, the headroom up top you would get from these HO's is unreal. The area where the RE starts to head back down is a problem for me as it really sucks up some amp power at that point. Wanna talk about real power concerns...I already have them with just a pair on a single FP, and that is also crossed at 60hz. The 40-60hz by itself really sucks the juice away. when running at 40hz and down, there is no problem at all smile.gif
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post #365 of 961
11/19/12 at 2:02pm
Couple questions:

Are they able to create wind similar to the caps and FV15?

How inert are the boxes? End-table worthy?
Edited by a|F - 11/19/12 at 3:46pm
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post #366 of 961
11/19/12 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by a|F View Post

Couple questions:
Are they able to create wind similar to the caps and FV15?
How inert are the boxes? End-table worthy?

The "wind" is from the port. No sealed sub will be able to reproduce the same effect.

Cabinet should be as inert as any other dual opposed cabinet... Perfectly.
Edited by popalock - 11/19/12 at 5:22pm
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post #367 of 961
11/19/12 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Under $6k...Hence my Submersive reference.
So I woke up yesterday and that's all I could think about. My wife was like, "why are you being so quiet today? Are you mad at me?"
I said that everything was fine. Later on in the day she caught me in the theater with the measuring tape...
Damn! Busted... Then the questions start to come...
I would do 4 quad opposed cabinets somewhat similar to Gorillas dimensions x 2 for each cab. I'd have to modify my center channel stand and lay the cabs on their sides, but I could make it work. Two cabs (8 subs) in front and two cabs (8 subs) behind my seats...
Have I thought about it? Extensively...
If I did this ^^^^ My problem would be that after a few months of being in 16 drivers worth of heaven, I'd start to wonder about upgrading the drivers. And we all know how much 16 LMS's will set you back! eek.gif
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post #368 of 961
11/19/12 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Yes, I'm running 4 drivers now, basically all colocated in a dual dual-opposed configuration.
A couple things: The JTR Cap sensitivity is listed as 91db on their site. The dayton's are indeed 89db sensitive, but there are twice as many drivers. Yes, the Caps will still be a bit more efficient around tune. However, in the midbass region, xmax/excursion is not as big of a factor as is sensitivity and displacement - both were/are being fed the same power from the Crown.
And yes the JTR does also have a lot of headroom in the midbass area, and they also sound great. The Daytons are pretty awesome though from what I've heard so far.
Are you visiting you're in laws over the holidays? biggrin.gif
Thanks for the complements, much appreciated. Here are my building costs - some money could be saved like primer, magnets, grills, etc if you did not want that stuff.
4 X Dayton 18 HO drivers - 933
4 sheets 4x8 ply, cabinet grade - 123
2 x binding post plates - 13
black screws for binding posts - 5
#10 x 1.5" spax screws for Drivers - 10
1 gallon primer - enough for probably 8 boxes - 18
3 tubes of PL premium sealant/glue - 15
1 gallon duratex - not used yet but enough for many boxes including a roller, 2 extra pads, and shipping - 72.00
Magnets for grills 40
14 pounds of polyfill from Walmart, not used yet - 42
1 X Crown XLS5000 (when it was on special with coupon) $533
1 x Minidsp with shipping $165
Wood for grill frames - approximately 10.00 for 1x4's ripped down
Cloth for speaker grill fabric - 15
Feet for enclosures - FREE thanks to my boy popalock biggrin.gif
Sandpaper = already had like 50 sheets of 120 / 150 / 320 grits, but if you need to buy this add maybe 5.00.
Wire - already had a spool of monoprice 12 gauge, but if you needed to buy I used about 12 feet overall. 5.00 maybe?
Total = $1994. Not too shabby. biggrin.gif
Subtract out the amp and EQ = 1296 including my fancy coatings and grill materials.
I think that's it.


That is very impressive. I agree with all thoughts in this thread about the HO changing DIY. Soon as I saw the driver available for that price the wheels spin and good to read about it in other threads.

Another comparo scenerio of cost (in 2010 $)
Danley DTS-10 kits x2 = 2026
EP4000 x2 = 698
BFD1124P = 99
PL glue = 30
deck screws = 55
driver screws = 14

=2922 total

and you still have to buy finish work (duratex etc)

You sir are cheating what we should call the subwoofer 2k rule biggrin.gif Maybe let's call it dB/$ ratio lol
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post #369 of 961
11/19/12 at 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

If I did this ^^^^ My problem would be that after a few months of being in 16 drivers worth of heaven, I'd start to wonder about upgrading the drivers. And we all know how much 16 LMS's will set you back! eek.gif

Eh. Just do one at a time when you have reached that place in bass heaven. smile.gif
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post #370 of 961
11/20/12 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

If I did this ^^^^ My problem would be that after a few months of being in 16 drivers worth of heaven, I'd start to wonder about upgrading the drivers. And we all know how much 16 LMS's will set you back! eek.gif

I've thought about it from this angle as well. I'm thinking big picture though.

I think everyone here has seen my grandiose ambition for my ultimate bass solution:

Subwall.jpg
That would be 32 LMS-U's requiring 16 Clones.

I could modify this design to add 12" more depth to accomodate an opposed configuration, double the # of drivers to 64 and half the # of amps to 8 and still maintain the same level of performance of 32 LMS-U's.

Plus, my materials list and overall electrical needs just pretty much cut in 1/2 as well.

Just me thinking out loud...
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post #371 of 961
11/20/12 at 5:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Subwall.jpg
That would be 32 LMS-U's requiring 16 Clones.

eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

So, um, how big is your HT room? tongue.gif
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post #372 of 961
11/20/12 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
So, um, how big is your HT room? tongue.gif

My bad. I should have added some context.

I meant to say my grandiose "design."

That is my end goal when I have a clean slate to start with.
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post #373 of 961
11/20/12 at 7:23am
Awesome thread here guys! This Dayton HO18 seems to be quite the performer, and the price is an absolute steal! Gorilla83, you have inspired me and helped with the decision as to which drivers I am going to use in my soon to be started, subwoofer build. The only thing I am unsure about is whether or not to go sealed or ported. I will be powering my subs with a Behringer EP4000, then later down the road, I will purchase another EP4000.

Even though this wasn't my build, I just wanted to give props to Scott Simonian, popalock, Beastaudio, and all of the other guys who are helping to answer questions and guide us amateurs!
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post #374 of 961
11/20/12 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Awesome thread here guys! This Dayton HO18 seems to be quite the performer, and the price is an absolute steal! Gorilla83, you have inspired me and helped with the decision as to which drivers I am going to use in my soon to be started, subwoofer build. The only thing I am unsure about is whether or not to go sealed or ported. I will be powering my subs with a Behringer EP4000, then later down the road, I will purchase another EP4000.
Even though this wasn't my build, I just wanted to give props to Scott Simonian, popalock, Beastaudio, and all of the other guys who are helping to answer questions and guide us amateurs!

Yup, thanks to all the trailblazers. I was in the same dilemma as you and after a bunch of research, settled on quad 18's powered by an EP4000 (for now, lol).
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post #375 of 961
11/20/12 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Yup, thanks to all the trailblazers. I was in the same dilemma as you and after a bunch of research, settled on quad 18's powered by an EP4000 (for now, lol).

That's my favorite thing about these drivers. At this price/performance point it seems to really encourage people to jump on the DIY bandwagon.

I think I might start my own build thread in advance and entitle it, "Dayton HO - The Next Big Thing for DIY Subs."

It would be my build thread / master list of everyone's HO builds. Seems like we already have 4 builds going at this current moment. Meh, pondering it...

I know it would have been cool to have a master list of all of the LMS-U builds on AVS back when I was researching.

Hey Gorilla, not sure if you have that Clone on order, but I know one channel of my amp works for sure, so if this miniGTG works out we should be able to try all 4 of your drivers on mine.
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post #376 of 961
11/20/12 at 9:54am
Very cool build, read through the whole thread last night and am very impressed. I am a totally newbie to DIY subwoofer builds but am handy at woodworking and am seriously thinking at making a go at this via copying your design for the dual opposed Dayton drivers and using your cutout template for the boxes (thanks for posting that).

Where I am lost is what amp (I am starting out with one sub, and will more than likely add a second down the road) to buy, and how to wire the dual opposed subs to that amp. I am thinking 4ohm load using something like this to power them?



Would this be the correct way to wire the dual opposed woofers in the box?

Also, would this amp be enough or should I be looking at something else like one of these:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-811

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer-EP4000-EUROPOWER-Power-Amp-105331706-i1448739.gc

And then add something like the miniDSP for EQ?
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post #377 of 961
11/20/12 at 10:13am
"Would this be the correct way to wire the dual opposed woofers in the box?"

that is for dual voice coil subs, so no. imagine that the blue lines in the picture do not exist, that is parallel and would net 2 ohms per cabinet.

"Also, would this amp be enough or should I be looking at something else like one of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-811
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer-EP4000-EUROPOWER-Power-Amp-105331706-i1448739.gc
And then add something like the miniDSP for EQ?"

this is where it kind of sucks because many of the lower cost amps don't provide the kind of power that the driver can take in from a wiring configuration and net load that will keep the amp happy. so, you either leave some capability on the table in the drivers or in the amps. the point where you can get a good match is the whole range of copies of the crest ca18, which is two ohm stable per channel and has 5,000 total watts output capability...marathon has one, crown has one, cerwin vega has one, etc.
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post #378 of 961
11/20/12 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Would this be the correct way to wire the dual opposed woofers in the box?"
that is for dual voice coil subs, so no. imagine that the blue lines in the picture do not exist, that is parallel and would net 2 ohms per cabinet.
"Also, would this amp be enough or should I be looking at something else like one of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-811
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer-EP4000-EUROPOWER-Power-Amp-105331706-i1448739.gc
And then add something like the miniDSP for EQ?"
this is where it kind of sucks because many of the lower cost amps don't provide the kind of power that the driver can take in from a wiring configuration and net load that will keep the amp happy. so, you either leave some capability on the table in the drivers or in the amps. the point where you can get a good match is the whole range of copies of the crest ca18, which is two ohm stable per channel and has 5,000 total watts output capability...marathon has one, crown has one, cerwin vega has one, etc.

Thanks for your help.. More confused now than ever smile.gif

I will start a new thread so I don't pollute this one...
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post #379 of 961
11/20/12 at 11:34am
Andrew,

What size box did you end up with anyways?
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post #380 of 961
11/20/12 at 11:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

My bad. I should have added some context.
I meant to say my grandiose "design."
That is my end goal when I have a clean slate to start with.

P-lock - I knew I could count on a crazy design coming from you. biggrin.gif When/If you start on the multi driver build, give me a holler. Let's scheme something up. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Awesome thread here guys! This Dayton HO18 seems to be quite the performer, and the price is an absolute steal! Gorilla83, you have inspired me and helped with the decision as to which drivers I am going to use in my soon to be started, subwoofer build. The only thing I am unsure about is whether or not to go sealed or ported. I will be powering my subs with a Behringer EP4000, then later down the road, I will purchase another EP4000.
Even though this wasn't my build, I just wanted to give props to Scott Simonian, popalock, Beastaudio, and all of the other guys who are helping to answer questions and guide us amateurs!

Glad you are enjoying the build! It's fun to get others interested in DIY. I'm totally hooked now, this stuff is totally fun and rewarding. Go for it man, we are hear to answer whatever questions you have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


Hey Gorilla, not sure if you have that Clone on order, but I know one channel of my amp works for sure, so if this miniGTG works out we should be able to try all 4 of your drivers on mine.

The clone is probably going to have to wait until my birthday time frame (January), but I for sure would love to try out one channel of yours!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Very cool build, read through the whole thread last night and am very impressed. I am a totally newbie to DIY subwoofer builds but am handy at woodworking and am seriously thinking at making a go at this via copying your design for the dual opposed Dayton drivers and using your cutout template for the boxes (thanks for posting that).

I will also post my boxnotes and the rest of the cutlist info in a bit for anyone interested in the rest of the information I used. X2 from my comment above about sharing the DIY love. wink.gif
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post #381 of 961
11/20/12 at 11:42am
Thread Starter 
Started working on the grills this afternoon. I made them a little smaller than the box itself at 24" H x 22" W. To save money I bought 1x4's and ripped them in half with my table saw. I hit the edges with a 45 degree bit on my router and did a quick sand on the edges. Voila!

2B20FC58-E0A5-48DF-B9EC-3CBDD6B3DEF4-3738-000004DA0960BF0B.jpg
778E9411-9DEF-4332-9FBF-C7E9CD2AD71F-3738-000004DA106D046E.jpg
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post #382 of 961
11/20/12 at 12:17pm
Looking nice. Off topic a little bit, but is there a reason you chose not to 45 degree them on your table saw? Only reason I ask is I'm building some fabric frames for my theater and am wondering if I should 45 them on the saw or use my router.
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post #383 of 961
11/20/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I'm totally hooked now, this stuff is totally fun and rewarding.

Well then, I may have to "commission" you to build me a cabinet. Of course, the beers are on me. tongue.gif

Ever hear the saying that someone who can't dance has "two left feet"? Well I have two left hands, and I'd like to keep both of them.

One of my grandfathers was phenomenally gifted in that regard, and there was literally nothing he couldn't build or fix. This was a man who only had a 7th grade education too, the stereotypical guy who quit school to support his family during the Depression. Some of the stuff he built was simply astonishing. That type of talent is supposed to skip a generation, which means I should have at least some of those abilities. I don't. frown.gif

For a while I've been contemplating one of those new SI 15" drivers and the O Audio 500 watt amp. Seems like that might make a good combo, but I wasn't interested in cutting off any fingers to find out. Evidently you have a knack for this stuff, so I may have to enlist your assistance... wink.gif
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post #384 of 961
11/20/12 at 12:37pm
Jim, you are not the first person who has had that idea. smile.gif

Gorilla could start a side business cutting speaker boxes and he would never have to buy beer again
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post #385 of 961
11/20/12 at 12:47pm
Hey gorilla,
When you get these finished I want you to try something I just experienced. My rolloff is less than yours but when you get 8 of these(4 subs), I want you to run Tron ast reference(air battle) with the subs 6 dBs hot AND with a LP filter set at 20hz with 6 dBs of gain and a slope of 12dBs. I was pretty funny watching my friends reaction and he has heard everything I have owned. It was crazy in here and the pressure blew both of my doors open to the theater. They are pretty heavy with sound board and 4 inch thick wall treatments. I know some don't like boosted low end but when it is EQ'd flat to 5hz it just adds more tactile sensations without boominess. Of course your speakers need to keep up and the SHO-10's should be OK.
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post #386 of 961
11/20/12 at 1:01pm
So is that uxl info in the op what you ended up for the dual opposed? I cant view it until I get home, so I have to guess. haha
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post #387 of 961
11/20/12 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Looking nice. Off topic a little bit, but is there a reason you chose not to 45 degree them on your table saw? Only reason I ask is I'm building some fabric frames for my theater and am wondering if I should 45 them on the saw or use my router.

Cutting a 5/8" 45 is far easier to get right with the router table. Not to mention pushing a 1.5" board through the table saw is a bit shady. cool.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Well then, I may have to "commission" you to build me a cabinet. Of course, the beers are on me. tongue.gif
Ever hear the saying that someone who can't dance has "two left feet"? Well I have two left hands, and I'd like to keep both of them.
One of my grandfathers was phenomenally gifted in that regard, and there was literally nothing he couldn't build or fix. This was a man who only had a 7th grade education too, the stereotypical guy who quit school to support his family during the Depression. Some of the stuff he built was simply astonishing. That type of talent is supposed to skip a generation, which means I should have at least some of those abilities. I don't. frown.gif
For a while I've been contemplating one of those new SI 15" drivers and the O Audio 500 watt amp. Seems like that might make a good combo, but I wasn't interested in cutting off any fingers to find out. Evidently you have a knack for this stuff, so I may have to enlist your assistance... wink.gif

An easy way to avoid sawing off a finger is to go with a flat pack. Far less danger there. biggrin.gif I think you would be surpsied what you could accomplish. By no means am I a skilled craftsman, I just takes a little experimentation and trial/error to learn. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

Jim, you are not the first person who has had that idea. smile.gif
Gorilla could start a side business cutting speaker boxes and he would never have to buy beer again

I can't imagine how anyone could/would make these by hand and turn a profit when factoring in their time. Maybe I just work too slow (likely), but it does take a considerable amount of time from plan to finish. tongue.gif It is very enjoyable though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

So is that uxl info in the op what you ended up for the dual opposed? I cant view it until I get home, so I have to guess. haha

UXL?? Originally I was looking hard at the UXLs but wound up with the Dayton drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Hey gorilla,
When you get these finished I want you to try something I just experienced. My rolloff is less than yours but when you get 8 of these(4 subs), I want you to run Tron ast reference(air battle) with the subs 6 dBs hot AND with a LP filter set at 20hz with 6 dBs of gain and a slope of 12dBs. I was pretty funny watching my friends reaction and he has heard everything I have owned. It was crazy in here and the pressure blew both of my doors open to the theater. They are pretty heavy with sound board and 4 inch thick wall treatments. I know some don't like boosted low end but when it is EQ'd flat to 5hz it just adds more tactile sensations without boominess. Of course your speakers need to keep up and the SHO-10's should be OK.

I could give it a try even with the 4 subs to hear how it sounds? Is Tron part of the scuba steve disc? If not, I will have to pick up a copy one of these days. I have yet to apply any boost with this setup.


General note - I did a 'mockup' of the grills on the boxes and they look kind of odd to me. I'm not sure how I feel about keeping the grills, I'm still up in the air as of now. I did drill the pilot holes for the magnets, but not sure if I will wind up using them. Chances are they will look a little bit better once painted black and covered with cloth though. Hmm.
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post #388 of 961
11/20/12 at 1:46pm
Quote:
UXL?? Originally I was looking hard at the UXLs but wound up with the Dayton drivers.

Oh I know! haha. I was referring to the link you still have in the OP, I guess all that had to do with was the uxl idea before you went this direction. regardless, what were the final box dimensions? I asked a few posts up but I guess you missed it smile.gif
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post #389 of 961
11/20/12 at 1:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Oh I know! haha. I was referring to the link you still have in the OP, I guess all that had to do with was the uxl idea before you went this direction. regardless, what were the final box dimensions? I asked a few posts up but I guess you missed it smile.gif

Ah, my bad. Final box is 7 cubes internally (roughly) and dimensions are 23W x 25H x 28D. I'd imagine one could easily swap drivers in the same box if you wanted to. cool.gif
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post #390 of 961
11/20/12 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Cutting a 5/8" 45 is far easier to get right with the router table. Not to mention pushing a 1.5" board through the table saw is a bit shady. cool.gif
An easy way to avoid sawing off a finger is to go with a flat pack. Far less danger there. biggrin.gif I think you would be surpsied what you could accomplish. By no means am I a skilled craftsman, I just takes a little experimentation and trial/error to learn. smile.gif
I can't imagine how anyone could/would make these by hand and turn a profit when factoring in their time. Maybe I just work too slow (likely), but it does take a considerable amount of time from plan to finish. tongue.gif It is very enjoyable though.
UXL?? Originally I was looking hard at the UXLs but wound up with the Dayton drivers.
I could give it a try even with the 4 subs to hear how it sounds? Is Tron part of the scuba steve disc? If not, I will have to pick up a copy one of these days. I have yet to apply any boost with this setup.
General note - I did a 'mockup' of the grills on the boxes and they look kind of odd to me. I'm not sure how I feel about keeping the grills, I'm still up in the air as of now. I did drill the pilot holes for the magnets, but not sure if I will wind up using them. Chances are they will look a little bit better once painted black and covered with cloth though. Hmm.

It is not on scuba steve, this is the air battle and I don't think it goes that low but low enough. The best part of a multiple sealed sub system is you can boost the low end but be careful running them hot because it takes lots of power for boost and hot subs. This is why I said 8 drivers which ensures enough headroom. With 4 boost is fine but running hot might not be, depends on your room.
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