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First DIY project for a guy looking to upgrade - multiple sealed 18s? - Page 4

post #91 of 1005
Wow, this turned out to be quite a surprise, thx Ricci! Scott what does the HF offer over the HO?
post #92 of 1005
I have not idea. Just look at the differences between the 8, 10, 12 and 15 inched versions of the HF and HO models. Supposedly more Xmax but we will have to wait and see.
post #93 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Ok all of this questioning about what the RS18 is capable of and its xmax rating led me to doing some investigation tonight. Turns out it will take 36v at any freq in free air without hitting the stops. The min impedance is right around 4 ohms so that is 324 watts. When placed in my 4.2 cube sealed enclosure it will accept 75 volts at least without running out of stroke. Thats around 1400w into 4ohms. In a small sealed enclosure you could use 1000-1500w into 4 ohm rated amp channel without worrying about clanking the driver. This drivers excursion is useful to atleast 20mm and has less mechanical noise than many.

Thanks man, much appreciated! I guess it's time to pony up and order some drivers. biggrin.gif REALLY looking forward to your full measurements and listening impressions.

Had no power at my place until 3AM this morning due to dandy Miss Sandy, but will be back in business this weekend. smile.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/2/12 at 5:45am
post #94 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Don't forget that there is an HF in the works. wink.gif
Still.... awesome stuff wrt the HO18. biggrin.gif

Scott - Did you get this info from PE or Dayton directly? Looking forward to what they have in store, although I doubt it will be priced at 250 shipped. biggrin.gif
post #95 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Now this get's interesting! Weeeee, this is fun! 1st order 8hz HPF applied to both.

2 Dayton 18's
7 cube dual opposed sealed box
2500 watts
Max excursion ~18mm at 25hz or so

vs.

1 X LMS5400 Ultra
4.5 cube sealed box
2500 watts
Max excursion ~31mm at 15 hz or so

While close at the 10hz region, the Daytons are stronger throughout, with a large advantage in the midrange section.

2xdayton18vs1xlms540045cubevs72500watts.jpg


Sealed dayton 18 in 4 cubes vs. Ported dayton 18 in 8 cubes vs. LMS5400 in 4.5 cubes
Daytons get 1250 watts, LMS gets 2500
Ported dayton is tuned to 19hz with HPF applied at 18hz, 1st order

sealeddayton18vsporteddayton18vslms5400.jpg
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/2/12 at 5:35am
post #96 of 1005
Gorilla try modeling with a 5Hz 12dB/octave Butterworth high pass. That should be a lot closer to what is typical electronics roll off actually. 6dB affects too much of the rest of the bandwidth. Sorry about that. That's what I get for shooting from the hip without checking first. My bad.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Don't forget that there is an HF in the works. wink.gif
Still.... awesome stuff wrt the HO18. biggrin.gif

Really...Cool.

Now before we get too excited about this driver I don't know what the response, compression or distortion looks like yet. So far so good for $250 though. I got all of my work done on this driver last night that is needed to make the driver entry on DB so I will try to get that up soon. Pics, TSP measurements, impedance, excursion video, etc...

This is the impedance in the 4.2 cube cab that was sent 75 volts BTW.

post #97 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Scott - Did you get this info from PE or Dayton directly? Looking forward to what they have in store, although I doubt it will be priced at 250 shipped. biggrin.gif

I got this from.... a source. wink.gif

No reason for the next version to be anymore expensive. Aside from specific item sales, the HO and HF version of all their Reference line are identically priced. Afaik anyhow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Gorilla try modeling with a 5Hz 12dB/octave Butterworth high pass. That should be a lot closer to what is typical electronics roll off actually. 6dB affects too much of the rest of the bandwidth. Sorry about that. That's what I get for shooting from the hip without checking first. My bad.
Really...Cool.
Now before we get too excited about this driver I don't know what the response, compression or distortion looks like yet. So far so good for $250 though. I got all of my work done on this driver last night that is needed to make the driver entry on DB so I will try to get that up soon. Pics, TSP measurements, impedance, excursion video, etc...
This is the impedance in the 4.2 cube cab that was sent 75 volts BTW.

Oh I know. But still...it's shaping up well for a $250 sub driver and not a single note pump at that. I have been checking your site constantly for updates on the Obsidian, 18HT and this 18HO.
post #98 of 1005
So basically what we're saying is: "James, you're a genius for selecting this driver!". JK! tongue.gif

Thanks Gorilla you must have seen my proposal for a new quad drivered "entertainment stand" in my build thread, lmao.

The thought of spending a $1,000 and having four of these in a cabinet is beyond tempting at this point.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/2/12 at 12:16pm
post #99 of 1005
BTW Gorilla: according to your model, it appears that- after room gain- my guess of "decent" response (~105dbs) down to 15hz with mine is prolly close.

Not bad for $250.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/2/12 at 10:22am
post #100 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Gorilla try modeling with a 5Hz 12dB/octave Butterworth high pass. That should be a lot closer to what is typical electronics roll off actually. 6dB affects too much of the rest of the bandwidth. Sorry about that. That's what I get for shooting from the hip without checking first. My bad.
Really...Cool.
Now before we get too excited about this driver I don't know what the response, compression or distortion looks like yet. So far so good for $250 though. I got all of my work done on this driver last night that is needed to make the driver entry on DB so I will try to get that up soon. Pics, TSP measurements, impedance, excursion video, etc...
This is the impedance in the 4.2 cube cab that was sent 75 volts BTW.

Good to know - I did notice the previous HPF was edging into the higher frequency levels, but figured you guys know more than I did so I must be missing something. biggrin.gif

One more stupid question from this guy - I'm not seeing huge advantages in SPL from going to a 7cubic foot box from 5. Will other advantages like lower distortion, etc result from the lower Q factor in the larger box?

Can't wait to see the results in the data bass! LOVE your site by the way, tons of invaluable info in there for geeks like us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

So basically what we're saying is: "James, you're a genius for selecting this driver!". JK! tongue.gif
Thanks Gorilla you must have seen my proposal for a new quad drivered "entertainlment stand" in my build thread, lmao.
The thought of spending a $1,000 and having four of these in a cabinet is beyond tempting at this point.
James

I did see your original build thread, but didn't see any mention of the entertainments stand. Great idea!! tongue.gif I'll start with 2 boxes, but I've got visions of 4 dual opposed boxes spaced around my room now. *Insert devil icon*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

BTW Gorilla: according to your model, it appears that- after room gain- my guess of "decent" response (~105dbs) down to 15hz with mine is prolly close.
Not bad for $250.
James

These drivers are looking like they have the potential to be a phenomenal value. At 250 a driver, multiples would be in the budget for a LARGE group of guys here that otherwise wouldn't be able to touch performance of this magnitude.

Now where is Erich with a dual opposed flatpack??? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/2/12 at 10:51am
post #101 of 1005
Well this pic kinda sums it up: I'm not really using the stand for components anymore, so why not a 6 foot long 14 cubic foot bass-coffin?!

149DEE23-9856-48D7-B386-7BAB5A22CD75-214-00000026AC50C1B3.jpg

Hey, speaking of: I could easily wire (2) pairs in parallel and then the pairs in series for a (2) ohm total, correct?

Anyone want to run a 2kilowatt model of (4) of these in a 14^3 cab???! biggrin.gif

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/2/12 at 11:01am
post #102 of 1005
DaytonHO184x12cuft500weaFR.gif

DaytonHO184x12cuft500weaXmax.gif
post #103 of 1005
Thanks SS.

Just gorgeous...and that's @ 12^3.

Below excursion with 2,000 watts and 105db 10hz output, before vessel gain.

$1000.

I'd bet tempted to go 14^3 ...should be right around/just above xmax with 2k, heh?

I don't mean to hijack your thread, Gorilla. Hopefully this will do us BOTH good, lol.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 11/2/12 at 11:16am
post #104 of 1005
4 of these per channel at 4ohms seem like a great match with an FP14k.
post #105 of 1005
OR (2) quad-drivered cabs on each side of a Crown XLS 5000. smile.gif

Imagine what you'd have for about $2500!


James
post #106 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Thanks SS.
Just gorgeous...and that's @ 12^3.
Below excursion with 2,000 watts and 105db 10hz output, before vessel gain.
$1000.
I'd bet tempted to go 14^3 ...should be right around/just above xmax with 2k, heh?
I don't mean to hijack your thread, Gorilla. Hopefully this will do us BOTH good, lol.
James

No worries, James. Free thinking is always welcomed here. biggrin.gif Based on what Josh has said so far I'd think they'd like a bit more power than 500/each though. I've been modeling with 1000-1250 watts and 3-3.5 cubes per driver. In most cases this still keeps the excursion under 20mm which is what Josh has been recommending based on his observations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

OR (2) quad-drivered cabs on each side of a Crown XLS 5000. smile.gif
Imagine what you'd have for about $2500!
James

My plan is to run (2) XLS5000's (add a second in my case) - 2 dual opposed cabs off each amp. 1 cabinet (in parallel) per channel in 2 ohm stereo. 10,000 watts of bliss and 8 drivers to spread the heat. If you wanted to be on the safer side, you could shrink the cabs down to ~5 cubes as it's not gaining a ton <15hz in the larger enclosures - at least in the SPL sense. I already have my rack area wired for a couple 20A lines ready to go. tongue.gif This is assuming my first prototype is a success though - hopefully within reason! eek.gif

Total cost with cabinets, amps, my minidsp, and drivers my guess is ~3600ish which is about what my current Cap/Crown/DSP setup cost me. I'd expect to have a substantial increase in headroom and extension with this setup, no?

*Yoda* Deaf we will be. biggrin.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/2/12 at 1:19pm
post #107 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

4 of these per channel at 4ohms seem like a great match with an FP14k.

THIS THIS THIS!!! Ahaha!!!!!! I LOVE it, I need more room... Im thinkin two dual opposed boxes for endtables, for room filler/nearfield, with the quad RE's up front... And then you may all come to visit the BASSment
post #108 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

4 of these per channel at 4ohms seem like a great match with an FP14k.

This is definitely an easier solution than the Dual crown idea I proposed above, I'm just still a bit concerned with dealing with amp issues and such from over there.
post #109 of 1005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

THIS THIS THIS!!! Ahaha!!!!!! I LOVE it, I need more room... Im thinkin two dual opposed boxes for endtables, for room filler/nearfield, with the quad RE's up front... And then you may all come to visit the BASSment

Dude, do it!! If so, I'm planning a road trip down your way. biggrin.gif

Hmm - LG clone 14K powering the 8 daytons PLUS 2 Ported caps on the Crown? Punishment for sure, but in a good way. tongue.gif
post #110 of 1005
I didn't know this prior, so maybe it will help someone else as well. HO (High Output) will take more power in smaller boxes. HF (High Fidelity) are suppose to have more extension, less power handling, but bigger boxes. This is in anticipation of the forthcoming HF model.
post #111 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Thanks SS.
Just gorgeous...and that's @ 12^3.
Below excursion with 2,000 watts and 105db 10hz output, before vessel gain.
$1000.
I'd bet tempted to go 14^3 ...should be right around/just above xmax with 2k, heh?
I don't mean to hijack your thread, Gorilla. Hopefully this will do us BOTH good, lol.
James

Hey, no problem. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

4 of these per channel at 4ohms seem like a great match with an FP14k.

YES

SIR!

biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

OR (2) quad-drivered cabs on each side of a Crown XLS 5000. smile.gif
Imagine what you'd have for about $2500!
James

Also a good choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

THIS THIS THIS!!! Ahaha!!!!!! I LOVE it, I need more room... Im thinkin two dual opposed boxes for endtables, for room filler/nearfield, with the quad RE's up front... And then you may all come to visit the BASSment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

This is definitely an easier solution than the Dual crown idea I proposed above, I'm just still a bit concerned with dealing with amp issues and such from over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Dude, do it!! If so, I'm planning a road trip down your way. biggrin.gif
Hmm - LG clone 14K powering the 8 daytons PLUS 2 Ported caps on the Crown? Punishment for sure, but in a good way. tongue.gif

I knew you'd all see the light. cool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I didn't know this prior, so maybe it will help someone else as well. HO (High Output) will take more power in smaller boxes. HF (High Fidelity) are suppose to have more extension, less power handling, but bigger boxes. This is in anticipation of the forthcoming HF model.

Yeah, really. If the HF follows in suit with a 2 layer VC, I can't see how this version wouldn't be sought out for it's SQ. A poor man's Aura NS18.
post #112 of 1005
This is my pre-Ricci tested high powered sealed recommendation for you guys. From my models and anecodotal evidence from Josh, I would not exceed 3.5cuft or so with more than 1,000w. 3-3.5cuft is the sweet spot for +1,000w applications. That is, unless you want to throw away bandwidth with high pass filters. Pfft... No thanks. Might as well built a vented system.

But anyway...

Scott's sim of quad HO18's with one channel of a 14k LG clone.

DaytonHO184x1100w3halfcuftFR.gif

DaytonHO184x1100w3halfcuftXmax.gif

One could go even smaller for more excursion control/protection but this should be safe and give you the most lowend output for your dollar. One would simply take a 1dB hit down low and bring the excursion down to a max of 18mm one way in a 3cuft box. Definitely the safest bet. Imho, if you can spare the space, this might be the better build over something like the UXL or LMS 18's. Those are fantastic if you NEED a small a very capable sub system. Or even if you don't. wink.gif
Edited by Scott Simonian - 11/2/12 at 3:01pm
post #113 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

No worries, James. Free thinking is always welcomed here. biggrin.gif Based on what Josh has said so far I'd think they'd like a bit more power than 500/each though. I've been modeling with 1000-1250 watts and 3-3.5 cubes per driver. In most cases this still keeps the excursion under 20mm which is what Josh has been recommending based on his observations.
My plan is to run (2) XLS5000's (add a second in my case) - 2 dual opposed cabs off each amp. 1 cabinet (in parallel) per channel in 2 ohm stereo. 10,000 watts of bliss and 8 drivers to spread the heat. If you wanted to be on the safer side, you could shrink the cabs down to ~5 cubes as it's not gaining a ton <15hz in the larger enclosures - at least in the SPL sense. I already have my rack area wired for a couple 20A lines ready to go. tongue.gif This is assuming my first prototype is a success though - hopefully within reason! eek.gif
Total cost with cabinets, amps, my minidsp, and drivers my guess is ~3600ish which is about what my current Cap/Crown/DSP setup cost me. I'd expect to have a substantial increase in headroom and extension with this setup, no?
*Yoda* Deaf we will be. biggrin.gif

Yeah my power "deal" could be permanent or temporary depending on my needs. I'd more than likely add a second "quad cab" for my eventual space and that would be all I would ever need.

I don't need to join the 130db 8hz crowd- no offense to anyone in it, lol.

I just want reference level bass to the 15hz neighborhood.

I think (2) quad cabs in my eventual room will do it with ease.

James
post #114 of 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I don't need to join the 130db 8hz crowd- no offense to anyone in it, lol.
James

Why not? You are purposely depriving yourself of better bass extension. confused.gif


Sounds like Captivator proximity bass denial. Sell it and join the dark side. biggrin.gif
post #115 of 1005
"what does the HF offer over the HO?"

the theory at least is the hf has half as many windings in the coil. this reduces the inductance in half. again, in theory, that will help transient response and some forms of distortion, i.e. it will improve sound quality. the downside is that reduces power handling and it also reduces motor strength because there is not as much coil in the gap. as a result, larger enclosures are required for the same q.

to the best of my knowledge, nobody has actually a-b compared them and i haven't seen anyone with an ho to be complaining about sound quality (it does after all have three shorting rings), so who knows how great the difference is.
post #116 of 1005
John, I had planned on sending Josh those drivers way back when his site opened to have them tested. In fact, I would have had the two tested against the Dayton DVC15. This was during the drought of good drivers last year or so. I was intersted in sending them but never got around to doing it. Really, it would only confirm what we already know.

However, now that we have an 18" version out....

To be honest... I've been holding out for these 18's for years. Patience paid off. smile.gif
post #117 of 1005
"Patience paid off."

oh yeah, did you pull the trigger on a set?
post #118 of 1005
Lol, no. Not yet. Just saying, instead of getting some 15HF's I waited for an 18" to finally come out. And it appears to be awesome. smile.gif

But yes, I already have planned a quad set destined to be my "rear sub". Lol
post #119 of 1005
Scott you waiting on the HF or the HO?
post #120 of 1005
Heheh. Well... I waiting for monies .... I have a very large project to finish so I will have no choice but to wait it out. wink.gif

If I could order these right now, I would. I just happen to have the luxery of not having a choice but to wait and see how the HF turns out.
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