Looking to Outperform Extremely Capabable Commercial Offerings for my LCR - Page 2

Originally Posted by enterthedragon 

Man... So it's seeming more and more like it would be in my best interest to just go with a commercial offering vs attempting DIY. So many options...
Keep the suggestions coming guys.

Originally Posted by enterthedragon 

Hey guys, I've been doing all the research I can, regarding the various options I mentioned in the poll and others suggested by various members.
I spent some time checking into the SH-50, but I read something about each Danley product measuring different. As in, you have to physically request that the products that you order match/measure the same if one was to use them in a HT environment. I don't remember if it was at this forum or the thread here on AVS started by TheLion, but it turned me off in general. I don't necessarily want to give up on the SH-50's, but it would be nice to hear them in a side-by-side comparison against something like the Noesis.
With that said, I have been reading more and more positive things coming from the Noesis and at about ~$2,500 per speaker they seem to be reasonable for the amount of claimed performance. Hell a 7.1 setup should, in theory, easily yield 140db+ performance. I'm leaning towards that, because my taste for expensive drivers will eat up any budget that I have just by purchasing the raw drivers alone.
I feel like I need to re-structure this thread as I have made my request too broad. How about this. I am going to draw a line in the sand right here and use the JTR Noesis as a benchmark (even though I have yet to hear them for myself?!?!) for this DIY project.
Summary of new DIY Perimeters/Goals per speaker (Subject to change upon finalizing design)
Budget: $2,000 - $3,300
Design Type: Two-Way
Max Output: 140db
Crossover: Two-Way
Response: 80Hz - 20+kHz (+/-3db)
Wattage: TBD
Impedance: 4 ohm
Dimensions: TBD
Materials: TBD
Weight: TBD
Perimeter elaboration:
Budget: $2,000(if passive) $3,300(if powered)
- If I decide on a passive design, I plan to utilize a few of those Lab Gruppen Clone amplifiers I have heard about. I've researched plate amplifiers and the most powerful ones that I have come across seem to come from a company called Speaker Power.
Design Type: Two-Way
- Highs and mids. Would like some nice mid-bass with extension as flat as possible down to the 80Hz region. My initial thoughts are that the ONLY way I could achieve this on the high-end is with a compression driver. That's totally fine.
Max Output: 140db
- I want this figure to be max "usable" output per speaker. Based on the commonality among our hobby and using the Noesis as a benchmark, I understand I am essentially asking for x 2 the performance for a 6db gain over a single Noesis. Double the performance for roughly the same price is what DIY is all about, right gents?!?!
Crossover: Two-Way
- Unless there is great easy solution available, I will need some serious help here gents. I am still learning the crossover game and couldn't tell you the difference between an active and passive crossover at this very moment so I will be doing what research I need to in this end to understand the basics. I do know that I do not want to have to rely on an external DSP to send the correct frequency range to the mids and another channel of a DSP for the highs. Am I making sense?
Response: 80Hz - 20+kHz (+/-3db)
- Again, as flat of a response as possible would be ideal through the entire range would be optimal. With that said, I understand the Speaker Power amp comes with a built in DSP that could help accommodate this need. On the other hand, if I went with a passive cabinet, would I have to rely on the internal cross-over to manage the incoming power accordingly?
Wattage: TBD
- I'm thinking somewhere between 2,000 and 4,000 watts RMS. If going passive, I don’t care if it takes 2000 or 4000+ watts for the speakers to reach their full potential. At the price point of the Lab Gruppen Clone amps, I will accommodate whatever power is required within that range. If I made the cabinets active, it appears as though I could squeeze roughly 2,500 watts from the Speaker Power SP3-1000-1000-500 amp.
Impedance: 4 ohm
- If a passive cabinet, I would like a simple 4 ohm speaker terminal or even speakon connection. One and only one connection! I do not want to have to bi-amp this cabinet. In theory, if I did not have an external amp, I would want to be able to hook this directly up to an AVR.
Dimensions: TBD
- Manageable enough to fit through a door and shallow enough to fit within a column, so less than 30" deep.
Materials: TBD (BB/MDF/Other)
- I really have no preference of construction materials.
Weight: TBD (preferably under 400lbs)
- It would be nice to be able to unhook a few of these, pack them in a work van and haul them to a speaker comparison get together. However, if that's not feasible given my above requested goals, don't let it be a determining factor for whatever recommendations.
I understand there are a few issues here that I have not addressed. Issues such as dispersion, etc... I haven't brought them up, because I know nothing about them. I want to create a great performing speaker cabinet that will give me, and the rest in my theater, the full 7.1 experience.
I've updated the first post to reflect my updates.


My horn arrays fit your criteria but they cost me $600 each. We could make them more expensive using ribbons. I have owned JBL cinema speakers, JTR triple 8's, eD cinema upgraded speakers which are more like the flat packs being built and with proper EQ I have not heard anything better for a movie experience. For about $2000 I could build a 72 inch tall array utilizing an array of ribbons and 3-4 12 inch quality woofers. I am using cheap piezos and dual 10's and they are awesome.

Originally Posted by carp 

I didn't vote since I've only heard the JTR Noesis

Originally Posted by LTD02 

oh, and based on this analysis, i'm going to go put in my vote now for the noesis.

Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 

I suggested the Cats in post 17, but nobody commented on it. I will say I really like my SEOS-12 using the DNA-360 and TD12M drivers vs my JTR T8 speakers.

Originally Posted by MKtheater 

This is interesting, the noesis uses dual 12's and a kick butt CD and horn and the unity uses dual 15's and a synergy horn for the top, I would have to listen to both to pick. The unity for $1500 seems like a bargain.

Originally Posted by carp 

The more I read in this thread the more I see I had no business posting in it... oops, I'm doing it again...
Great info "John" (great forum name btw ); I'll be staying tuned to this thread - if nothing else than for the education.

Originally Posted by LTD02 

"This is interesting, the noesis uses dual 12's and a kick butt CD and horn and the unity uses dual 15's and a synergy horn for the top, I would have to listen to both to pick. The unity for $1500 seems like a bargain."
mk, here is the off axis frequency response of the unity. not quite as smooth, so as you move around the room, the response will change a little. i have not seen an actual measured frequency response of the noesis. the picture posted was for the horn with a standard cd on it just to get some idea of how the horn itself performs.
a coaxial cd employs two compression drivers in one. one for the treble and another larger one for the midrange. by putting both in one unit, the sound is kept precisely in phase down to the crossover point.
in any case, the bms coaxials really give the danley synergy some competition. i am not sure, but i think they cost $600 or more, so this is no econowave project.

"I would have to listen to both to pick."
i agree. that would be a heck of a shootout. throw in a set of th50's just for fun.

Originally Posted by LTD02 

"There are tradeoffs involved with that approach. It is not as simple as letting the CD play omnidirectionally."
what tradeoffs are you thinking about?
with a traditional coaxial driver, you have a cd that fires through the cone and uses the cone as the horn. the cone then provides the midrange down to an omnidirectional point where it can be crossed to supporting drivers.
in this case, the horn is fixed and the compression driver plays down to the point of omnidirectionality.
how are those two different, except for the second one being superior because cones do not make as good of horns as horns do?