or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Looking to Outperform Extremely Capabable Commercial Offerings for my LCR
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Looking to Outperform Extremely Capabable Commercial Offerings for my LCR - Page 2

Poll Results: With all things equal, which would you choose for your Ultimate Performance LCR setup?

 
  • 34% (14)
    JTR Noesis
  • 4% (2)
    Klipsch Jubilee
  • 19% (8)
    JBL 4722
  • 14% (6)
    Other Commerical Offering
  • 26% (11)
    DIY (w/suggestions)
41 Total Votes  
post #31 of 73
How is this project coming along? I have been looking at the Danley and Yorkville line as well. Forin, where did you get the $2800 SM96 price? I have seen the SH50 priced similarly, anyone have pricing for the SM60F?
post #32 of 73
Hello Bexar,

The price for the SM96 I listed was from memory, I could be +/- a hundred or so dollars. As for the SH50 price I have the 2010 Danley catalog in my inbox from working with the dealer. I am not sure how much prices have changed in the last 2 years but I can provide prices on products that existed in 2010 except for all of the Jericho, SM96 and SM80. If listing prices breaks board rules just send me a pm and I can provide the information that way.






Forin
post #33 of 73
Another item,

Today there have been youtube posts, one with Danley and the other with the New JTR Noesis.

Danley- http://www.avsforum.com/t/1218050/official-danley-sound-labs-thread/30 (scroll down)

JTR Noesis- http://www.avsforum.com/t/1438080/kansas-city-speaker-g2g-and-barbecue-in-the-park-november-2012/30 (scroll down)

Please do not base a purchase decision on these videos.

With my headphones, while listening to the Danley video, I recognized the very distinct Danley sound I had with my SM60Fs. Of course the low end is off (I blame the headphones) and the wonderful imaging are not present, but that silky smooth transparent quality that I had experienced for the last 2 years was mildly of present in that video.

From watching that video I bet the JTR Noesis sound fantastic as well, and am sure they have as many good qualities as the Danley's in person!




Forin
post #34 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Man... So it's seeming more and more like it would be in my best interest to just go with a commercial offering vs attempting DIY. So many options...
Keep the suggestions coming guys.



Not sure if you would consider buying used and I don’t know who the seller is but this looks like it could be another option for you:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1419718/danley-sound-labs-jtr-seaton-theater-system-for-sale
post #35 of 73
You've received many good suggestions for speakers, so I'll suggest mounting whatever you choose in a baffle wall. Make it one continuous surface, floor to ceiling, and sidewall to sidewall.

For insignificant additional cost, eliminating baffle step yields "free" headroom. Plus, no front wall reflections to corrupt midbass response and no edge diffraction adding unwanted secondary sound sources. (horns can prevent edge diffraction up high but, lower in frequency, midrange and below will still wrap to cabinet edges)

post #36 of 73
Thread Starter 
Hey guys, I've been doing all the research I can, regarding the various options I mentioned in the poll and others suggested by various members.
I spent some time checking into the SH-50, but I read something about each Danley product measuring different. As in, you have to physically request that the products that you order match/measure the same if one was to use them in a HT environment. I don't remember if it was at this forum or the thread here on AVS started by TheLion, but it turned me off in general. I don't necessarily want to give up on the SH-50's, but it would be nice to hear them in a side-by-side comparison against something like the Noesis.

With that said, I have been reading more and more positive things coming from the Noesis and at about ~$2,500 per speaker they seem to be reasonable for the amount of claimed performance. Hell a 7.1 setup should, in theory, easily yield 140db+ performance. I'm leaning towards that, because my taste for expensive drivers will eat up any budget that I have just by purchasing the raw drivers alone.

I feel like I need to re-structure this thread as I have made my request too broad. How about this. I am going to draw a line in the sand right here and use the JTR Noesis as a benchmark (even though I have yet to hear them for myself?!?!) for this DIY project.

Summary of new DIY Perimeters/Goals per speaker (Subject to change upon finalizing design)

Budget: $2,000 - $3,300
Design Type: Two-Way
Max Output: 140db
Crossover: Two-Way
Response: 80Hz - 20+kHz (+/-3db)
Wattage: TBD
Impedance: 4 ohm
Dimensions: TBD
Materials: TBD
Weight: TBD


Perimeter elaboration:

Budget: $2,000(if passive) $3,300(if powered)
- If I decide on a passive design, I plan to utilize a few of those Lab Gruppen Clone amplifiers I have heard about. I've researched plate amplifiers and the most powerful ones that I have come across seem to come from a company called Speaker Power.

Design Type: Two-Way
- Highs and mids. Would like some nice mid-bass with extension as flat as possible down to the 80Hz region. My initial thoughts are that the ONLY way I could achieve this on the high-end is with a compression driver. That's totally fine.

Max Output: 140db
- I want this figure to be max "usable" output per speaker. Based on the commonality among our hobby and using the Noesis as a benchmark, I understand I am essentially asking for x 2 the performance for a 6db gain over a single Noesis. Double the performance for roughly the same price is what DIY is all about, right gents?!?!

Crossover: Two-Way
- Unless there is great easy solution available, I will need some serious help here gents. I am still learning the crossover game and couldn't tell you the difference between an active and passive crossover at this very moment so I will be doing what research I need to in this end to understand the basics. I do know that I do not want to have to rely on an external DSP to send the correct frequency range to the mids and another channel of a DSP for the highs. Am I making sense?

Response: 80Hz - 20+kHz (+/-3db)
- Again, as flat of a response as possible would be ideal through the entire range would be optimal. With that said, I understand the Speaker Power amp comes with a built in DSP that could help accommodate this need. On the other hand, if I went with a passive cabinet, would I have to rely on the internal cross-over to manage the incoming power accordingly?

Wattage: TBD
- I'm thinking somewhere between 2,000 and 4,000 watts RMS. If going passive, I don’t care if it takes 2000 or 4000+ watts for the speakers to reach their full potential. At the price point of the Lab Gruppen Clone amps, I will accommodate whatever power is required within that range. If I made the cabinets active, it appears as though I could squeeze roughly 2,500 watts from the Speaker Power SP3-1000-1000-500 amp.

Impedance: 4 ohm
- If a passive cabinet, I would like a simple 4 ohm speaker terminal or even speakon connection. One and only one connection! I do not want to have to bi-amp this cabinet. In theory, if I did not have an external amp, I would want to be able to hook this directly up to an AVR.

Dimensions: TBD
- Manageable enough to fit through a door and shallow enough to fit within a column, so less than 30" deep.

Materials: TBD (BB/MDF/Other)
- I really have no preference of construction materials.

Weight: TBD (preferably under 400lbs)
- It would be nice to be able to unhook a few of these, pack them in a work van and haul them to a speaker comparison get together. However, if that's not feasible given my above requested goals, don't let it be a determining factor for whatever recommendations.

I understand there are a few issues here that I have not addressed. Issues such as dispersion, etc... I haven't brought them up, because I know nothing about them. I want to create a great performing speaker cabinet that will give me, and the rest in my theater, the full 7.1 experience.

I've updated the first post to reflect my updates.
Edited by enterthedragon - 11/21/12 at 10:44am
post #37 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Hey guys, I've been doing all the research I can, regarding the various options I mentioned in the poll and others suggested by various members.
I spent some time checking into the SH-50, but I read something about each Danley product measuring different. As in, you have to physically request that the products that you order match/measure the same if one was to use them in a HT environment. I don't remember if it was at this forum or the thread here on AVS started by TheLion, but it turned me off in general. I don't necessarily want to give up on the SH-50's, but it would be nice to hear them in a side-by-side comparison against something like the Noesis.
With that said, I have been reading more and more positive things coming from the Noesis and at about ~$2,500 per speaker they seem to be reasonable for the amount of claimed performance. Hell a 7.1 setup should, in theory, easily yield 140db+ performance. I'm leaning towards that, because my taste for expensive drivers will eat up any budget that I have just by purchasing the raw drivers alone.
I feel like I need to re-structure this thread as I have made my request too broad. How about this. I am going to draw a line in the sand right here and use the JTR Noesis as a benchmark (even though I have yet to hear them for myself?!?!) for this DIY project.
Summary of new DIY Perimeters/Goals per speaker (Subject to change upon finalizing design)
Budget: $2,000 - $3,300
Design Type: Two-Way
Max Output: 140db
Crossover: Two-Way
Response: 80Hz - 20+kHz (+/-3db)
Wattage: TBD
Impedance: 4 ohm
Dimensions: TBD
Materials: TBD
Weight: TBD
Perimeter elaboration:
Budget: $2,000(if passive) $3,300(if powered)
- If I decide on a passive design, I plan to utilize a few of those Lab Gruppen Clone amplifiers I have heard about. I've researched plate amplifiers and the most powerful ones that I have come across seem to come from a company called Speaker Power.
Design Type: Two-Way
- Highs and mids. Would like some nice mid-bass with extension as flat as possible down to the 80Hz region. My initial thoughts are that the ONLY way I could achieve this on the high-end is with a compression driver. That's totally fine.
Max Output: 140db
- I want this figure to be max "usable" output per speaker. Based on the commonality among our hobby and using the Noesis as a benchmark, I understand I am essentially asking for x 2 the performance for a 6db gain over a single Noesis. Double the performance for roughly the same price is what DIY is all about, right gents?!?!
Crossover: Two-Way
- Unless there is great easy solution available, I will need some serious help here gents. I am still learning the crossover game and couldn't tell you the difference between an active and passive crossover at this very moment so I will be doing what research I need to in this end to understand the basics. I do know that I do not want to have to rely on an external DSP to send the correct frequency range to the mids and another channel of a DSP for the highs. Am I making sense?
Response: 80Hz - 20+kHz (+/-3db)
- Again, as flat of a response as possible would be ideal through the entire range would be optimal. With that said, I understand the Speaker Power amp comes with a built in DSP that could help accommodate this need. On the other hand, if I went with a passive cabinet, would I have to rely on the internal cross-over to manage the incoming power accordingly?
Wattage: TBD
- I'm thinking somewhere between 2,000 and 4,000 watts RMS. If going passive, I don’t care if it takes 2000 or 4000+ watts for the speakers to reach their full potential. At the price point of the Lab Gruppen Clone amps, I will accommodate whatever power is required within that range. If I made the cabinets active, it appears as though I could squeeze roughly 2,500 watts from the Speaker Power SP3-1000-1000-500 amp.
Impedance: 4 ohm
- If a passive cabinet, I would like a simple 4 ohm speaker terminal or even speakon connection. One and only one connection! I do not want to have to bi-amp this cabinet. In theory, if I did not have an external amp, I would want to be able to hook this directly up to an AVR.
Dimensions: TBD
- Manageable enough to fit through a door and shallow enough to fit within a column, so less than 30" deep.
Materials: TBD (BB/MDF/Other)
- I really have no preference of construction materials.
Weight: TBD (preferably under 400lbs)
- It would be nice to be able to unhook a few of these, pack them in a work van and haul them to a speaker comparison get together. However, if that's not feasible given my above requested goals, don't let it be a determining factor for whatever recommendations.
I understand there are a few issues here that I have not addressed. Issues such as dispersion, etc... I haven't brought them up, because I know nothing about them. I want to create a great performing speaker cabinet that will give me, and the rest in my theater, the full 7.1 experience.
I've updated the first post to reflect my updates.


My horn arrays fit your criteria but they cost me $600 each. We could make them more expensive using ribbons. I have owned JBL cinema speakers, JTR triple 8's, eD cinema upgraded speakers which are more like the flat packs being built and with proper EQ I have not heard anything better for a movie experience. For about $2000 I could build a 72 inch tall array utilizing an array of ribbons and 3-4 12 inch quality woofers. I am using cheap piezos and dual 10's and they are awesome.

Edited by MKtheater - 11/21/12 at 12:05pm
post #38 of 73
ETD, I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but max output capability is not a useful benchmark for L/C/Rs. Unless you are in a 400 seat theater of course. In even the largest HT's 120-125db is more than enough headroom. Subwoofers are a different story. I'm not saying headroom is bad, but there is a point where it does not matter. 140db max output is beyond that point.

The same goes for amps. You won't gain anything with a 5000w amp vs a 1000w amp on speakers that 100db sensitive. At 2m, a speaker will do reference with less than 10-15w. Headroom is good, but headroom on top of headroom is a waste.

If you are spending this much money, find a place to demo the speakers. Whether you get JTRs, Seatons, Danleys or something similar, they will all blow you away. They are all excellent speakers and more similar than different. They are all capable of supreme dynamic reproduction (this should be the first requirement for a speaker IMO...dealbreaker on many speakers). They all control directivity well. They are well designed using good components.

I'd suggest either Danley SM-96, Seaton Catalysts or JTR T12's. I don't know as much about the JTR Noesis, but I'm sure it is excellent as well. If you have questions about Danley's different models, just ask their sales people. Of course, only do so if you are serious as their time is valuable. They won't blow smoke up your rear. Just give them the details on your application and budget. You can also talk to Mark Seaton. He is more HT oriented so he can probably guide you along better. At that price point, a complete Seaton setup with 3 Catalysts and 4 Sparks would be awesome. Do whatever you want for subs. Seaton is involved with JTR (might be designer, can't say for sure on all JTRs). They are similar to Seaton Sound speakers but hit a slghtly lower price point.

Also take PNW's advice and built a baffle wall like his picture shows. If you are serious, it is the best way to go. Now that I think about it, just talk to Mark Seaton and tell him how much you have to spend. He will hook you up. You won't find a nicer or smarter guy in the home theater biz. Cut him a check and sit back and enjoy. If I didn't enjoy DIYing, I would go straight to him.
post #39 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

ETD, I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but max output capability is not a useful benchmark for L/C/Rs. Unless you are in a 400 seat theater of course. In even the largest HT's 120-125db is more than enough headroom. Subwoofers are a different story. I'm not saying headroom is bad, but there is a point where it does not matter. 140db max output is beyond that point.
The same goes for amps. You won't gain anything with a 5000w amp vs a 1000w amp on speakers that 100db sensitive. At 2m, a speaker will do reference with less than 10-15w. Headroom is good, but headroom on top of headroom is a waste.
If you are spending this much money, find a place to demo the speakers. Whether you get JTRs, Seatons, Danleys or something similar, they will all blow you away. They are all excellent speakers and more similar than different. They are all capable of supreme dynamic reproduction (this should be the first requirement for a speaker IMO...dealbreaker on many speakers). They all control directivity well. They are well designed using good components.
I'd suggest either Danley SM-96, Seaton Catalysts or JTR T12's. I don't know as much about the JTR Noesis, but I'm sure it is excellent as well. If you have questions about Danley's different models, just ask their sales people. Of course, only do so if you are serious as their time is valuable. They won't blow smoke up your rear. Just give them the details on your application and budget. You can also talk to Mark Seaton. He is more HT oriented so he can probably guide you along better. At that price point, a complete Seaton setup with 3 Catalysts and 4 Sparks would be awesome. Do whatever you want for subs. Seaton is involved with JTR (might be designer, can't say for sure on all JTRs). They are similar to Seaton Sound speakers but hit a slghtly lower price point.
Also take PNW's advice and built a baffle wall like his picture shows. If you are serious, it is the best way to go. Now that I think about it, just talk to Mark Seaton and tell him how much you have to spend. He will hook you up. You won't find a nicer or smarter guy in the home theater biz. Cut him a check and sit back and enjoy. If I didn't enjoy DIYing, I would go straight to him.

I suggested the Cats in post 17, but nobody commented on it. I will say I really like my SEOS-12 using the DNA-360 and TD12M drivers vs my JTR T8 speakers. smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #40 of 73
"I suggested the Cats in post 17, but nobody commented on it. I will say I really like my SEOS-12 using the DNA-360 and TD12M drivers vs my JTR T8 speakers."

the u215 are a passive danley design albeit and older one, so you would need an amp if your receiver isn't sufficient.

even with an amp, the seatons are about twice the price, as for if they are twice the value, that is a decision each person has to make based on their objectives and preferences.
post #41 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My horn arrays fit your criteria but they cost me $600 each. We could make them more expensive using ribbons. I have owned JBL cinema speakers, JTR triple 8's, eD cinema upgraded speakers which are more like the flat packs being built and with proper EQ I have not heard anything better for a movie experience. For about $2000 I could build a 72 inch tall array utilizing an array of ribbons and 3-4 12 inch quality woofers. I am using cheap piezos and dual 10's and they are awesome.

$600? Wow! Sounds awesome.

Can you post a picture?
post #42 of 73
I didn't vote since I've only heard the JTR Noesis, but hearing them in 3 different environments was enough to force me to buy them. I've heard them outside and in a friends room, and of my own room. Limitless power that holds it's composure long past where my ears would give out (even outside in the park!). I actually bought them for how they sound for music more than movies. I haven't heard speakers that sound like this, ever, but once again I haven't heard a lot of speakers that are being discussed in this thread.

In my room I've recently heard JTR triple 8's, eD Cinema 12's, DR 250's. For me the Noesis are on a completely different level. A friend (Archaea) told me that he thought the JTR triple 12's sounded a lot like the triple 8's but he that the Noesis are a very large step up from both. Like I said I've only heard the 8's but I agree, when I heard the triple 8's in my room I really liked them but I didn't even think of buying and they are a lot cheaper than the Noesis.

I won't go on and on about how much I like these speakers, who knows if I had heard one of the other speakers in this thread I might have been compelled to dump a ton of money on them instead.

As far as commercial subs go, don't forget about the JTR Sealed Captivator 2. It has the output and sound quality of 2 co-located Subersives for 3000. That HAS to be the best commercial subwoofer deal ever. That said, I own dual Submersives and love them.

If I had the skills/tools I would go DIY, I think it would be a lot of fun and so rewarding to be able to do that.

Very cool thread. smile.gif
post #43 of 73
from some pics of the cd, it looks like the noesis employs a bms co-axial compression driver. i'm guessing this one:

http://bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bms-data/product_data_2012/bms_4593nd_t_data_2012-02.pdf

that is a very nice approach.

the horn is too small to hold pattern control to 400hz, but that might not be as important as some other things (phase in particular).

it looks like he chose the xr1464. i was going to say that strikes me as a little odd, as it is a 60x40 horn and ask why he didn't go with the 90x60 xr1496, but the polars on the xr1464 are really smooth in transition and the directivity is held to about 1.2khz very nicely.

now, i'm starting to get the approach and i am REALLY liking it. controlled directivity on the high end, let the horn naturally run to omnidirectional where it is then crossed as low as the co-axial will allow to the woofers.

http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product_simple&pid=268





VERY NICE WORK JEFF!
post #44 of 73
oh, and based on this analysis, i'm going to go put in my vote now for the noesis.
post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I didn't vote since I've only heard the JTR Noesis smile.gif

Ehh nevermind, I ended up voting anyway.
post #46 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

oh, and based on this analysis, i'm going to go put in my vote now for the noesis.

Ill toss one in for the Noesis as well.
post #47 of 73
This is interesting, the noesis uses dual 12's and a kick butt CD and horn and the unity uses dual 15's and a synergy horn for the top, I would have to listen to both to pick. The unity for $1500 seems like a bargain.
post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I suggested the Cats in post 17, but nobody commented on it. I will say I really like my SEOS-12 using the DNA-360 and TD12M drivers vs my JTR T8 speakers. smile.gif

I'd put a SEOS design up against these others for sure. The problem is convincing someone that it is on par with something like the Noesis or Cat's is tough given it is DIY.

A SEOS-15/TD15M is hard to trump, especially when you add price as a tiebreaker.

If you want to get crazy, go with a SEOS-15 and two arrays of 10 Dayton RS125T's. Dual TD18H's would handle the bottom end. It would look like this:
Code:
DDDDD
DDDDD
SEOS
DDDDD
DDDDD
TD18TD18

The outer woofers would be shaded with passive components to control horizontal directivity. Crossover would be around 900-1000hz from SEOS to mids. Crossover from TD18H's to mids would be around 200hz. Could be sealed or vented on TD18Hs.

This would give horizontal directivity control down to approximately 500-600hz. The vertical would be better confined by the MTM reducing ceiling and floor reflections. I would use MiniDSP PWR-3 3-way DSP amps. This would come to about $1500 in drivers/SEOS plus $1300 in the DSP amp. Of course, you would need someone to handle the crossover design. It would be best to build this into a baffle wall like PNW's Octagon. Integrate arrays of subs into the wall too just like the Octagon.

It would be ultra low distortion with exceptional directivity control. IMO, it would trump the Cat's and JTR Noesis. This isn't a knock on those designs which I'm confident are excellent. The issue with those designs is that you they are confined to shipping boxes and normally acceptable form factors so they can be reasonably sold. If you take away the contraint of a 15-18" wide cabinet, JTR and Seaton would probably do something different. By going DIY you don't have that constraint.

As you can see, it isn't a simple question. You could probably even contract Mark Seaton to build something like this and he would probably have his own take on a good solution. I know he has done some custom studio monitor setups. What I posted above is just one proposal. I can come up with countless possibilities that go up and down the budget and crazy scale.
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

This is interesting, the noesis uses dual 12's and a kick butt CD and horn and the unity uses dual 15's and a synergy horn for the top, I would have to listen to both to pick. The unity for $1500 seems like a bargain.

There are issues with the Unity. It doesn't include some design refinements I would want personally. There are some directivity issues, the mid entry holes could be updated to Synergy specs and the crossover is not optimal. Beyond that the cab is less than ideal. Pro speakers are great, but their priority is not to squeeze every bit of sonic perfection out of a speaker. Durability and bottom line will trump some of that. In the case of the Unity you can add in some issues that Danley tackled later.

There is a thread about a guy making some of these mods to a Unity. The one part you can't mod is the directivity. It is still an exceptional value. Would it be better than a JTR T12 at a similar price? I don't know. The general unity paradigm is superior IMO, but the JTR would be a better finished product and I would guess that would be a better option.

If you want Danley's tech which IMO is peerless, the SM series is the best bet. Someone who is a serious buyer could contact Danley and I'm sure they would give guidance on the specific model that would work best for the specific room and budget. A Danley SM60M in an MTM with a TD18H woofer above and below crossed with a MiniDSP PWR2 amp would be awesome. Not cheap though for sure. Danley's tech is expensive for good reason.

The JTR Noesis looks like it is an awesome value though and would probably give the Cat's a run for their money at a lower price point. It is a good bet for those that want something under 20" wide with great dynamics and narrow directivity.
post #50 of 73
The more I read in this thread the more I see I had no business posting in it... oops, I'm doing it again...smile.gif

Great info "John" (great forum name btw biggrin.gif ); I'll be staying tuned to this thread - if nothing else than for the education.
post #51 of 73
"This is interesting, the noesis uses dual 12's and a kick butt CD and horn and the unity uses dual 15's and a synergy horn for the top, I would have to listen to both to pick. The unity for $1500 seems like a bargain."

mk, here is the off axis frequency response of the unity. not quite as smooth, so as you move around the room, the response will change a little. i have not seen an actual measured frequency response of the noesis. the picture posted was for the horn with a standard cd on it just to get some idea of how the horn itself performs.

a coaxial cd employs two compression drivers in one. one for the treble and another larger one for the midrange. by putting both in one unit, the sound is kept precisely in phase down to the crossover point.

in any case, the bms coaxials really give the danley synergy some competition. i am not sure, but i think they cost $600 or more, so this is no econowave project.



"I would have to listen to both to pick."

i agree. that would be a heck of a shootout. throw in a set of th50's just for fun.
Edited by LTD02 - 11/23/12 at 9:39am
post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

The more I read in this thread the more I see I had no business posting in it... oops, I'm doing it again...smile.gif
Great info "John" (great forum name btw biggrin.gif ); I'll be staying tuned to this thread - if nothing else than for the education.

No way, your post was good. Don't censor yourself. Anecdotes of experience with products are helpful. They only do so much though. That is where an understanding of the underlying designs helps. It is also very difficult to compare speakers back to back without going to great lengths to control the test.

Everyone once in a while someone catches the reference. Scotch-romanian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"This is interesting, the noesis uses dual 12's and a kick butt CD and horn and the unity uses dual 15's and a synergy horn for the top, I would have to listen to both to pick. The unity for $1500 seems like a bargain."
mk, here is the off axis frequency response of the unity. not quite as smooth, so as you move around the room, the response will change a little. i have not seen an actual measured frequency response of the noesis. the picture posted was for the horn with a standard cd on it just to get some idea of how the horn itself performs.
a coaxial cd employs two compression drivers in one. one for the treble and another larger one for the midrange. by putting both in one unit, the sound is kept precisely in phase down to the crossover point.
in any case, the bms coaxials really give the danley synergy some competition. i am not sure, but i think they cost $600 or more, so this is no econowave project.

"I would have to listen to both to pick."
i agree. that would be a heck of a shootout. throw in a set of th50's just for fun.

I wouldn't say it is quite that simple. The BMS coax's have their faults, but they are pretty awesome drivers. They definitely aren't easy to work with. Beyond that, the Noesis is confined by its horn which loses effectiveness below 800hz. JTR is probably using it a little lower but it won't take full advantage of the BMS coax. Like with any design there are tradeoffs.

I will say that in their form factor and price point, the JTR's are tough to beat. A DIY clone would probably need $1000 in parts alone. Clearly, JTR is getting a nice price break on the parts.

An interesting shootout would be a SEOS15 design with a high quality woofer, the JTR Noesis and the Seaton Cat 12.
post #53 of 73
i'd say the horn loses its effectiveness at around 1.2khz which is what one would expect from a horn its size. that is the point where the horn loses directivity and the polars fan out.

"JTR is probably using it a little lower but it won't take full advantage of the BMS coax."

the specs on his site claim "horn loading" down to 400hz (which is what set off my entire investigation as there is no cheap 1.4" compression driver that would hold up with any power crossed that low) even though there is no horn loading down there, what he is probably trying to suggest is that the crossover point is down near there, so frequencies from that point up are coming out of the horn.

that is what i think is so brilliant about this design. it just lets the horn transition to omnidirectional and crosses to the woofers at a point where they are still omnidirectional too.

this approach makes more sense than the classical directivity matching the woofer to the horn. the reason that we never see it is most high frequency c.d.'s would be destroyed by this approach.

"The BMS coax's have their faults.."

what faults were you thinking of?
post #54 of 73
I'm not knocking JTR, but I'm not so sure I would call using the BMS coax well below the horn's effectiveness "brilliant". There are tradeoffs involved with that approach. It is not as simple as letting the CD play omnidirectionally. I'm also not suggesting it is a glaring deficiency, it is just a tradeoff.

If the BMS coax were equivalent to the Danley Synergy design, the core of Danley's business would be moot. Danley's Synergy design has significant benefits, but it is a mess to discuss here. I'm also not suggesting the BMS coax's are bad. Quite the contrary. I've heard them a number of times and they are excellent. I've almost bought some for myself.

Designing speakers is a matter of choosing between tradeoffs. JTR is confined by their form factor and the use of off the shelf horns. A better use of the BMS coax would be with a larger, wider horn, but that wouldn't make sense for JTR's business. Another possibility would be the SEOS sandwiched by a bunch of small arrayed mids, but that wouldn't be marketable due to an odd size.
post #55 of 73
"There are tradeoffs involved with that approach. It is not as simple as letting the CD play omnidirectionally."

what tradeoffs are you thinking about?

with a traditional coaxial driver, you have a cd that fires through the cone and uses the cone as the horn. the cone then provides the midrange down to an omnidirectional point where it can be crossed to supporting drivers.

in this case, the horn is fixed and the compression driver plays down to the point of omnidirectionality.

how are those two different, except for the second one being superior because cones do not make as good of horns as horns do?
post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"There are tradeoffs involved with that approach. It is not as simple as letting the CD play omnidirectionally."
what tradeoffs are you thinking about?
with a traditional coaxial driver, you have a cd that fires through the cone and uses the cone as the horn. the cone then provides the midrange down to an omnidirectional point where it can be crossed to supporting drivers.
in this case, the horn is fixed and the compression driver plays down to the point of omnidirectionality.
how are those two different, except for the second one being superior because cones do not make as good of horns as horns do?

I'm not comparing it to a traditional coax. I'm simply referring to the effects of using a driver on a horn below the horns ability to load or control directivity. It is funny that JTR says horn "loading" occurs down to 400hz which is impossible. I'm also not so sure the BMS coax's are usable below 500hz without a pretty steep DSP filter. The technology behind the BMS's coax is also not free from downside in how the HF and mid portions "combine". It does outperform many traditional 1.4/1.5" exit medium and large format CDs.

I'd love to hear a back to back comparison of a SEOS-15/TD15M/4550 vs the Noesis. The Noesis has a tighter pattern for sure and there are some pluses and minuses to an MTM with 12's crossed around 500hz. The SEOS will throw a wider pattern and control it lower but likely won't control as well in the vertical. Another interesting comparison would be against a SEOS with a separate midhorn like the Pi7.

Edit: There is another design consideration for JTR. I believe the Noesis is usable horizontally. That is part of the reason for the low cross and thin profile. For home use, I'd actually use the 18Sound XT1464 over the XR1464 horn in the Noesis except it is 5" wider and therefore not as usable as a center. The XR1464 is also better for pro apps because of its aluminum construction. It dissipates heat better and is likely more durable. Neither is of much use in home apps though.

For a commercial offering, I think JTR has knocked it out of the park on his design choices. For its footprint, quality drivers, presumed well-designed crossover, cabinet quality, price point and reputation, I think JTR has a helluva offering in the Noesis. I can't think of another product that competes directly.
Edited by coctostan - 11/23/12 at 1:34pm
post #57 of 73
i don't really disagree with your points.

i'm just asking what the faults are with the bms coaxial or what the tradeoffs are with running a horn to the point where it becomes omnidirectional that you mentioned.

the only thing that i see to complain about is the on-axis frequency response. but that can be fixed because of the well controlled off-axis behavior of the horns.
Edited by LTD02 - 11/23/12 at 2:13pm
post #58 of 73
ah, look what i found (again):

i believe those are the speakers that nick, the guy who john j. bought the lamda business from, is running in his home theater. i didn't catch that they employ a bms coax the first time that i saw them (or maybe i did but didn't know what i was looking at).

not sure what the crossover point is on these.



http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1620&start=15

"The pair of TD15M's really are overkill for this. The sensitivity seems to be a little less on the ribbon than specified. I did no level matching at all to pull the tweeter down. What you see is what it was. Level is nearly perfect with the pair of 10" drivers. The 10's also have thermally and displacement limited output that is a good 6dB or more higher than the ribbon as long as they are crossed above 50Hz to a subwoofer. I could make 16ohm version of the 15" so a pair would match pretty closely the ribbon, but at that point you're much better looking at the BMS coax compression driver as in this cabinet here" -John Janowitz.
Edited by LTD02 - 11/23/12 at 3:07pm
post #59 of 73
Great discussion.

Anecdotally, ...fwiw;
I've heard the coaxial BMS' drives in Pro Audio Technology's top end offerings (large horn/full active/powered/dsp contoured), and I strongly preferred my Seaton Cats. Sure, apples to oranges but wth. Clearly, the BMS is an outstanding product. But I found them to have an accompanying "edge" of harshness, lack of top octave extension and not at all smooth. I want to make clear I've not heard the JTR Noesis.

Also, ....yes, the coaxial element to these designs does possess a nice ancillary benefit of horizontal orientation if needed, without significant drawbacks. My Cat12 LCRs currently have the center on it's side to facilitate the display above.

Also, if Bill Waslo had his hands in on any SEOS based design being given consideration, that would a strong point it it's favor ..... that's in addition to the superbly designed horn/waveguide profile. Yes, as stated, the SEOS-15/TD15M seems like an incredible DIY avenue if one were so inclined.


LTD, coctostan, great posts
post #60 of 73
yeah, the higher end p.a.t.'s appear to employ diffraction horns. who knows how much harshness was driver related and how much was horn related or other pitfalls in the system that you heard.

oh, and bang for the buck, the seos two-ways are turning out to be top notch. no arguments there.
Edited by LTD02 - 11/23/12 at 6:23pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Looking to Outperform Extremely Capabable Commercial Offerings for my LCR