Speakers for HT and music, 4000 budget

Well, it's been the better part of a year since I made any additions/modifications to either my bedroom or living room systems, and I'm sad to say the upgrade bug is biting, badly this time. Also, I'm getting married in a few months, and I figure I ought to grandfather in as big of a system as I can possibly afford before my balls get snipped (nah, she'd never do that, she wants kids after all -- I think).

So here's where I'm at. Back in '07 I started building a Def Tech home theater -- BP 7002 mains, a CLR 2000 center (formerly 2002 -- that was an earlier upgrade), and BP-2X surrounds. The bass was pretty good, but my living room is open to the dining room and kitchen, meaning I have 7000 cu ft to pressurize, so eventually I added a Hsu VTF-15H, which has been VERY nice The amp is a NHT Power5 (200 wpc, ICEpower). I'll be moving soon, however, and my new living room will be a much more bass friendly 3000 cu ft. Also, in the last 5 years I've increasingly been using the system for music (mostly jazz, blues, and piano, with a little classical and some very select hip hop/R&B), and less for movies. Compared to my bedroom system, I can tell that the mids are a little muddy, and the highs aren't quite as airy.

The Def Techs have treated me well, but I think they've had their time. In their place, I want a something that will be outstanding for jazz music but still hold its own on HT duty. I'm really sensitive to forward highs (I cant listen to budget Klipsch for more than 30 secs before i have to leave.) My budget is 4000 max for 5 speakers. Eventually I may upgrade the amp if necessary, but for now assume my NHT Power5 will be supplying the power. Of course I'll still have the Hsu sub (that guy isn't going anywhere). I want detail, airy treble, articulate mid bass. I'm already looking at the Ascend Sierra Towers, but I'd like to know from you all what else I should research, ideally that I can demo in music stores. The footprint can grow of necessary, and I don't need more SPL than what Im currently getting out the BP 7002s, but preferably something comparable (though with the smaller room, I think I could sacrifice some of the BP 7002's bass and still be alright with the Hsu sub).

I'm willing to look at the used market, so if the retail price exceeds 4000 for 5 speakers by, say, 50%, that's okay. I'm patient. I assume this project will take a month or 2 to research, demo, and buy everything. As far as brands go, I've heard great things about Salk, Paradigm, Dali, and several others. Are there any models you've heard that you think are what I'm looking for, and that would beat out the Ascends?

Thanks in advance for your ideas!

Thanks guys. I live in San Francisco, and will definitely check around for local GTGs. In the mean time, if there is anyone local with a set of Ascend Sierra Towers, Salk SongTowers, or Paradigm Signatures, and you'd be willing to let me demo, please send me a PM! (LA is probably a little far, but I can get down to the south bay no sweat.)

Jerry, based on your impressions, are you able to compare/contrast the sound you heard from the Salk SongTowers against your Paradigm Signatures?

Ok, tons of good info here, thanks folks for all the replies and suggestions

@Jerry - I really appreciate your impressions on Salk vs Paradigm. If at some point you find yourself in front of a pair of S8s and you remember this thread, feel free to post a comparison of Songtower vs S8 , but in the mean time I'll see if I can find both sets of speakers in my area and give them both a listen for myself. I understand that at the end of the day this is really about subjective taste, and I'm the only one who is going to derive enjoyment from the speakers that I buy so I owe it to myself to demo everything under the sun.

@Hooked - I'll browse the James website, but I'm somewhat against in-walls. I change things up too often for them to really make sense for me. That may change down the road, but for now I'm looking at floorstanders.

@SoftDome - My grandmother literally lives above that store, no joke! I guess I'll be visiting her a little more often Go Giants!

@Derrick - I've auditioned Klipsch, and unfortunately they're not for me. But thanks for the suggestion. I've been interested in checking out the Epic sub. Opposite facing drivers to cut down on rattle -- great idea!

@Nuance and cschang - Wow, those GTGs must have been awesome. And great resources for the rest of us. Also, I do put a lot of stock in owners impressions. I know some people try to push the speakers they own, either to help them feel good about their own purchase or because they see it as a competition, but those recommendations are often easy to weed out, and I think most owners are past that. (If someone were to ask me for a review of my Def Tech BP 7002s, I think I could give a candid review of them. And see Jerry's comparisons of Salk Songtowers against his Paradigm Signature S2 earlier in this thread.) The harder thing avoid is an underlying bias that occurs when an owner gets used to his or her speaker at which point that speaker becomes a subconscious reference point. For that reason alone, I think better reviews tend to come from people with more experience reviewing. But anyhow, reading through some of your links, I think there are several excellent and informative reviews. Of course, as I said to Jerry, I'll do everything I can to give all of these speakers a listen before making a decision.

Question for anyone familiar with Salk Songtowers and Ascend Sierra Towers -- what sonic improvement (if any) does the RAAL add? My ears are fairly sensitive to bright tweeters. I know that this is often associated with detail, and I do like detail and airiness. If I were gonna buy one of these two speakers, do you think the RAAL upgrade would offer me what I'm looking for? If anyone has every heard Hybrid Audio Technology car speakers, those speakers have all the detail I want and are right on the border of what I'd call too bright. I roll my eq off just a touch to keep from getting fatigued.

Re volume, I don't listen at reference level. When I watch movies, I may go up as high as -8 on the receiver, but I've only ever gone higher just to see what my rig is capable of.
Edited by Thunder240 - 10/29/12 at 12:36pm

Let's talk about this option. If I redo only LCR, then that brings the RAAL speakers into my budget, so it's definitely attractive. It would mean not running the system as 5 ch stereo, but I rarely ever do that now, so that's not really a big loss. My bigger concern is with the mismatch between the Deftech BP-2x and any of these awesome speakers that folks are mentioning for watching action movies. Is consensus that it isn't important to have a match? I watch a lot of action movies, and I always love the sense of immersion I get in a well made 5.1 movie with airplanes flying around my head, bullets whizzing by, explosions, etc. Is that type of sound (explosions, bullets, jet engines) 'messy' enough to begin with that the finer qualities of good stereo speakers wouldn't come out and cause me to notice the mismatch?

I think i'll keep the focus on the LCR then. Like you said, I can always change out the surrounds later if I can hear a mismatch and it bothers me. And for several speaker brands, spending my budget on 3 instead of 5 speakers will make a noticeable difference and allow me to move up a tier (Ascend appears to be one of the few exceptions, with CMB-170s being really inexpensive).

Also, I heard Paradigm Studio 100s today at Music Lovers in SF, and the sound isn't what I'm looking for -- not transparent. That said, they sounded awesome playing Zeppelin (too bad that's not the type of music I typically listen to). I'll still demo Sigs if/when I find them. Il haven't been to AudiovsionSF, but their website shows a few DALI, Dynaudio, and KEF models in my price range, so hopefully this weekend I'll have a chance to do a bit of listening.

Still looking for folks in the Bay Area with Ascend or Salk towers with/without RAAL. If you have them and would be kind enough to demo them for me, that would be much appreciated!

Well, I heard the Sierra Towers w/ RAAL tweets this evening, I was blown away. Those RAALs made the intro guitar solo of ACDC's "Back in Black" sound luscious, which is more than I can say for any other speakers I've heard. Also, the piano in Eva Cassidy's "What a wonderful world" sounded truly life like, giving me shivers. They weren't the be-all/end-all (with Chopin's Etude #1 it sounded like some of the allegro notes were blending together a bit), but they're gonna be darn hard to beat for $4000.

Edit: The one other criticism I had of the Sierras was that they weren't as forgiving as I'd have liked for some of my old jazz tracks (e.g. Duke Ellington's "Minnie the Moocher"). I suppose that this is a tradeoff that comes with really detailed and revealing speakers.
Edited by Thunder240 - 11/8/12 at 3:37pm

Not in home unfortunately -- I found a local owner. I realize this isn't ideal, but I plan to demo many speakers, and if I were to pay return shipping on all [but one] of them, I'd eat up a good chunk of my budget!

Today I heard Dynaudio Excite X36s. On the plus side, they differentiated instrumentation (e.g. picked out the the keys and guitar in Stevie Wonder's "I Wish", differentiated cello from male vocal in Mozart's Requiem "Confutatis maledictis" chorus) extraordinarily well. Midbass was the opposite of muddy. In that vein, they were superior to the Ascends playing Chopin's Etude #1. But they lacked the energy that I've grown accustomed to with my Def Techs and that the Ascends also possessed. They had a much more of a clinical sound, not very suitable for rocking out except on tracks that have been 'over mixed' (kind of ironic, given their name). As for the highs, they couldn't come close to the Ascends w/ RAAL, e.g. the life-like piano sparkle.

While I really liked the Dynaudio's mid-bass, overall I don't think they are what I want. But I can clearly see why Dynaudio has a great reputation. For some people, these might be perfect.
Edited by Thunder240 - 11/8/12 at 4:29pm