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BassThatHz Theater Build - Page 19

post #541 of 730
Thread Starter 
Delivery is the 29th biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So the oppo would still need a processor for me.
The only problem with that (and it's a BIG problem) is you then loose ALL benefits of then having/using the Sabre DAC, specifically, unless your processor pre-in's are world-class quality, as in: measured by a AP bench tester to be at or better. If it turns out to be worse, then there is absolutely no point in using the 105 (FYI).

I have a similar problem, which I might try solving by using Y-Spliters and turning on the 105 or UMC-1 as-needed (as long as that too doesn't degrade the sound, I doubt it would.)
Edited by BassThatHz - 5/22/13 at 11:34am
post #542 of 730
I am using a Meridian 861
post #543 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am using a Meridian 861
I searched the web for charts of the 861, none could be found. Tried to find a whitepaper about the noise profile, again turned up empty.
All I do know about it is that it can't do HDMI, hence why you are probably looking at the 105 (rather than the 103 which has a lesser-quality DAC for it's analog outs).
You should try it with Y-splitters if you are as fanatical about SQ as I am, worth a try.
post #544 of 730
I have tried many processors with HDMI and I was not impressed as audio is concerned. Meaning the differences are nill. Of course I am talking movies here and my bitrates are not much lower than lossless. My processor will take a uncompressed track which is supposed to be the best and play it in DTS. I have owned entry, mid, and high end processors with HDMI as well an none give the experience I have now! Well, one did and that was an Ada Cinema Rhapsody mark IV with HDMI but it was not better.
post #545 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have tried many processors with HDMI and I was not impressed as audio is concerned. Meaning the differences are nill. Of course I am talking movies here and my bitrates are not much lower than lossless. My processor will take a uncompressed track which is supposed to be the best and play it in DTS. I have owned entry, mid, and high end processors with HDMI as well an none give the experience I have now! Well, one did and that was an Ada Cinema Rhapsody mark IV with HDMI but it was not better.

So what you are saying is lossless isn't actually lossless? I'm confused.
I'm not sure how HDMI would affect the sound.
post #546 of 730
No, I am saying in a blind test picking lossless over HBR DTS is a crap shoot. I like HDMI for the picture and ease of connection with switching capabilities but using the Oppo will have no switching. Of course I play movies about 98% of the time probably higher so the Oppo would work for me. I may give it a go at some time.
post #547 of 730
"I'm not entirely sure, I could create a video of my system with the auto-eq applied (UMC-1 stereo DSP mode) in non-upsampled 44.1k (regular quality) vs the raw 192khz upsampled ASIO streaming in pure-mode (highest quality). It might be noticeable even over youtube...
To me the EQ/DSP mode robs the sound of all life, ok maybe not all but good deal of it; it gives it a sort of digital sheen/mask."

i can see how different eq/dsp's could cause more problems than they are designed to solve. i was simply talking about the audibility of the -77db distortion.

if the speaker is producing 1% 2nd harmonic distortion at 1khz (distortion at 2khz), that is -40db. adding some additional harmonic distortion at 2khz that is down -77db will only increase the total 2nd harmonic distortion by something like .001db or about 0.025%.

the speaker will be distorting the sound about 40 times more than the electronic device and the room, probably 400x.
post #548 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i was simply talking about the audibility of the -77db distortion.
if the speaker is producing 1% 2nd harmonic distortion at 1khz (distortion at 2khz), that is -40db. adding some additional harmonic distortion at 2khz that is down -77db will only increase the total 2nd harmonic distortion by something like .001db or about 0.025%.
the speaker will be distorting the sound about 40 times more than the electronic device and the room, probably 400x.

According to this online calculator.

Harmonics Improvement would be:
0.0141254% -77db
0.0001778% -115db
Diff: 0.0139476% 38db (~80x Log Improvement, 7000x Linear Improvement)

Bass Noise Floor Improvement would be:
0.001% -100db
0.0000316% -130db
Diff: 0.0009684% 30db (~32x Log Improvement, 1500x Linear Improvement)

Treble Noise Floor Improvement would be:
0.0001778% -115db
0.0000316% -130db
Diff: 0.0001462% 15db (~6x Log Improvement, 20x Linear Improvement)

If my maths are somewhat correct.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm


I'm anticipating a objective difference of less than a 0.03% improvement, which would be the mathematical limit of this upgrade; which at this level of Hi-Fi could be a "night and day" difference (if I'm even slightly lucky...)
In Foobar 192 ASIO direct mode and the 105 in Pure-Mode, I'm anticipating a subjective/sensory improvement of anywhere from 1% to 10%. I would consider anything beyond a 1% improvement to be a "night and day" difference at this point.
(Another 6 days and I'll know the answer to that question.)

Basically I had two primary goals, for less than $1500:
1) To have a better-than-current-method / really-good, BD player.
2) To have a better-than-current-method / really-good, 2ch XLR and RCA music output from a HTPC.

Nice to haves:
3)To fix the stereophonic bass issue.
4) To fix the low-level auto-mute issue.
5) To fix the <5hz brickwall issue.

Anything else is secondary and unwanted if it compromises on the first 2 aspects. Which it doesn't.
Anything else it might add feature-wise is just icing on the cake. Which it doesn't add much else (that I will be using at least...)
post #549 of 730
Thread Starter 
Looks like it could be here as early as tomorrow. Just under 5 inches tall, I will have to adjust my rack today.
post #550 of 730
Thread Starter 
I always get a good laugh when I see that they "find a way" to delay a non-expedited package; if nothing more than to differentiate the service levels of their high-rate tiers. LOL rolleyes.gif

Even though it is only a 4 hour drive away from my house, I'm sure they will find a way to make it take the full 60 hours of remaining estimated time wink.gif

FedEx does it, UPS does it, they all seem to do it. I'm sure they must also know that we know that they know. tongue.gif
post #551 of 730
Thread Starter 
It arrived; just waiting for me to get home after work.
Rack is all prepped and ready-to-go.
post #552 of 730
Awesome, can't wait to hear your impressions and I am guessing they will be great!
post #553 of 730
Thread Starter 
Here are the unboxing pictures.









Well protected and I like the cloth bag it comes in.
Remote has brushed aluminium face plate, back is plastic.

As for the player it is all metal, the face plate is 1/4inch aluminium eek.gifsmile.gif

Now I have to hook it up...
I'll be doing headphones via USB firstly (using a RCA to mini adapter on the dedicated L/R channels), to get to know the player better. I need to know if it makes start-up/turn-off popping sounds before hooking it directly to a tweeter with 1.21 jiggowatts and also how the volume scales.


Too bad it doesn't come with a USB cable, for the price, you would expect one.
post #554 of 730
Thread Starter 
It boots in ~15seconds and tray is usable within 2 seconds. FAST!!!!! eek.gif

Just installing the Win 7 64 USB driver.
post #555 of 730
Thread Starter 
That works, no issues found thus far.
Volume works even in USB ASIO mode, which I was VERY happy to see.
No start/stop noises from what I can tell.

It's the best headphone sound I ever recall hearing.

It doesn't have the stereophonic issue that the UMC-1 has. YAY, one problem solved. smile.gif

I feel confident it connecting it to my speakers now. Here goes!!!!!!!
post #556 of 730
Thread Starter 
It's in the rack now and wired up ready to go.


Surrounds, LFE, Center and USB HTPC 2-ch DAC.


L/R subs (XLR) and L/R mains (RCA)


LFE RCA to XLR, FM, and cable TV routing


Subs processing


More processing and Amps (Blu-Rays and CD's go in the front, of course. LOL)


It's probably a bit more clear now that you see it how I have it connected together?
post #557 of 730
Thread Starter 
Well the verdict is in, it's about 50% better than the UMC-1.
The only downside is that it doesn't output enough volts; still gets pretty loud though.

Just watching the first Blu-Ray and so far it's awesome, so real sounding. Way better than the UMC-1.
post #558 of 730
Thread Starter 
I get excursion at 3hz now, but stuff is rolling off fast below that; so that fixes that issue compared to the UMC-1. I can now play the deepdropper song and not get farting noises.
Also the 105 doesn't have the auto-mute issue like the UMC-1 does.

What I don't like is the position of the volume buttons and the fact that the USB DAC is the last option in the input list, it would have been nice to have those as buttons.

The 105 has two DAC's in it, one for 8 channel movies and another (identical) for 2 channel music. The difference is that the 2-ch one has -133db vs -130db noise.

Here's what 2-ch mode sounds like in pure-mode:




One thing that I might try today is powering my highs with the Pro amps now that I can output a good/proper XLR connection at -133db noise.

For the first time in 7 years I've been able to remove this gear from my subwoofer's signal path, which helps get me deeper, and be more dynamic, better channel separation, and less noise.
post #559 of 730
Thread Starter 
One major issue I had was that the remote would become unresponsive, so I updated to the newest firmware but that didn't fix it.

This occurs randomly when adjusting the config settings or sometimes after 6hours of USB DAC usage.
The solution is to power cycle the unit. Then you lose your disc position.

From the perspective of the way I use it, the newest firmware has support for newer discs but that's about it; it gives no other advantages.
The network update option is really fast and painless though.



I had to reduce the gain in all of my pro amps by several db because the 105 is a lot more dynamic/sensitive than the BFD's RCA to XLR conversion I had before.
post #560 of 730
Thread Starter 
Emotiva has finally fixed the power supply issue with the XSP-1.
Too bad I'm spending all my money on other stuff at the moment.
post #561 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Emotiva has finally fixed the power supply issue with the XSP-1.
Too bad I'm spending all my money on other stuff at the moment.

Its only money.. Go for it!!! You may want to call Emotiva they are having a "Secret" sale
post #562 of 730
with the focus being to wring every last bit of performance out of everything, i kind of hate to mention it, but the celestion buyout woofers seem like a large step backwards.

i think it was designed for something like this: http://www.traceelliot.com/bassamps/?item=116931
Edited by LTD02 - 6/5/13 at 9:38am
post #563 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

with the focus being to wring every last bit of performance out of everything, i kind of hate to mention it, but the celestion buyout woofers seem like a large step backwards.

i think it was designed for something like this: http://www.traceelliot.com/bassamps/?item=116931

+1

I would have assumed that a fully active TD15M (w/Apollo)/SEOS 12/15 build would be put into service here.

I never saw BassThatHz as a "bang for the buck" guy...for which the Celestion woofer build is the king
post #564 of 730
The Celestion speaker received really high praise from Bill Waslo, even saying he preferred it over the AE TD15 drivers he's worked with.

Although considering BTH already has all the amps ready, he could have gone active if Bill provides settings.
post #565 of 730
I'd be amazed if the Celestion drivers tested better than the AE 15's.eek.gif It would be interesting to hear what John at AE would have to say about that.
post #566 of 730
Bill also pointed out that he doesn't play super-loud. I would expect that's where an AE driver smokes the Celestion, distortion and thermal power handling.
post #567 of 730
I'd still be surprised if the Celestions sounded better at any volume level. AE drivers are used in a number of very expensive home audio speakers. They're not just used for high volume sound reinforcement in pro setups.
post #568 of 730
at low power, i can see how distortion (harmonic, intermodulation, power compression, resonances, etc.) could be low enough that it isn't really a factor and so all you are left with is frequency response. i think this is what bill was talking about when he said that he might like them as much or more than the td15m.

as the dial is turned up though, all those distortion components scale non-linearly, increasing much faster than the spl. that is where the differences begin to reveal themselves. the only one that doesn't jump out is listener fatigue and that is related to distortion and only becomes apparent over time.

i just figured that keeping distortion to a minimum at higher playback was part of the bth strategy. i wasn't saying that there is anything inherently wrong with the celestions, just that they don't seem like the best choice here.
post #569 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I get excursion at 3hz now, but stuff is rolling off fast below that;

eek.gif ... cool.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The Celestion speaker received really high praise from Bill Waslo, even saying he preferred it over the AE TD15 drivers he's worked with.

Although considering BTH already has all the amps ready, he could have gone active if Bill provides settings.

I've not heard the Celestion, however I have spent hours in Bill's listening room, in front of some similarly cheap drivered loudspeaker. If Bill says it's good, I trust that ... good enough for me. Now it's entirely different, but his current mains, utilize a $50 compression HF, and mids and woofs that were under $10 each. I was amazed at what Bill can do, and his ear for culling transducer gems out of buyout stock. His CoSynes (Tom Danley Synergy design) are an amazing effort, and an incredible window into the recorded event.

No doubt ... the AE/TD drivers are superb, perhaps the best there is. I've got two in each of my LCRs, and yeah, they're killer. But in a bass managed, SEOS based approach, I'd suspect the Celestion drivers prove to be fine, and I'd support Bill's design choices. My surrounds are QSC, which I believe utilize Celestion drivers too.



Thanks, and best of luck


btw; BassThatHz, I too have an Oppo, the BDP95, I'm aware of some differences but the DACs and XLR analog outs are sweet.
post #570 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I too have an Oppo, the BDP95, I'm aware of some differences but the DACs and XLR analog outs are sweet.

The 95 pretty much measured the same, the only thing you are missing is a USB DAC as an input and whichever new features they added to disc playing capability and firmware.

It took about 96hours to break-in, fresh out of the box the highs were slightly bright, it eventually calmed back down to neutral. But even factoring that in, it was still 50% better SQ than the UMC-1 OOTB.
It's amazing how to can only need to listen at 70 or 80db but yet extract all the details off the track in exquisite detail, from ultrasonic to infrasonic.
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