or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › 110" DIY Spandex AT Screen
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

110" DIY Spandex AT Screen - Page 5

post #121 of 544
Now this is interesting. If smokarz didn't mind doing this, he could test 4 or 5 different material types and be able to show the difference.

Brightness is one thing. Can you test contrast, smokarz? How would you go about showing which material is better. I suppose that's the whole point of picking this one best for the application. Cause we already know hyper white BOC is going to be the highest Fl. Kind of what MM is getting at I believe. But the black detail I get out of my fabricland silver spandex is really good. But as I mentioned above, I have lumens to spare. Viewsonic Pro8200 shining on a 92" screen from 10ft away. I figure Fl isn't really what a guy like me is after. Any way to compare those kinds of attributes with testing?
post #122 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

What size do you need to test it smokarz? I kept about an 8" wide strip of the Joanne's spandex to do AT testing on. Could you test the Fl on something that small? I think this stuff I got from Joanne's is something more people need to look into. It's $9.99/yrd and no shipping costs of course. And they'll sell it by a 1/2 yard, so people could buy 2.5yrds instead of 3yrds. Some potential savings there. But I'm a test junky as well and would be reluctant to recommend it without testing it first. As you may recognize me from the DIY speaker forums, I test the crap out of anything before I recommend it there.
Can you recommend a starter package for a guy like me wanting to get into testing screens?


Hey Tux, sorry I have no idea who you are on the DIY speaker forums. frown.gif




Just kidding man, your speaker designs are awesome. biggrin.gif

I am no test expert, but when I go to JoAnn, I'll make sure to pick up 1/2yard of that stuff you have (just give me the SKU#). I like to throw something up that would cover the entire window pattern on the screen (so something like 2ftx2ft or 3ftx3ft).

Software: Color HCFR (it's free). Allow full calibrations and quick luminance measurement.
Colorimeter: i1D3 (i1 Display Pro). On amazon for $250. The best colorimeter on the market for the price (according to the experts). If you have the cash, you can jump for the i1Pro spectrometer
Light Meter: Allows you to measure the lumens coming out of your PJ before it hit the screen so you know exactly how many lumens you have to work with instead of guessing. It's $15 on Amazon.


I am sure there are a lot more expensive and advance instruments out there. I just don't have the expertise nor the cash to look into them.
post #123 of 544
I'll dig up the SKU.

So $250 eh :/ I've been wanting to buy sound easy which is $250. I think speakers is more my think biggrin.gif
post #124 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

While I agreed that experience is highly valuble. I can not agree with anyone that completely dismissed science.
If I am lost in the woods, I trust my compass over a hiker.

In order for measurements to be useful and reliable we would need to have one person in a controlled environment do all of the measurements with the same equipment. Given variations in room lighting, actual calibration of the tools used to measure, experience of the user, calibration of and brightness of the actual projector, etc. there is going to be as much uncertainty in the various 'measurements' presented as there is over subjective user reactions. Even then there is going to be production variances in the fabric itself, and the amount of 'stretch' you use when applying the fabric will also potentially change the results.

A more appropriate analogy would be trusting a third parties reading of a compass that they may or may not know how to read (or may have been operating in near a strong magnet) vs 100 hikers all telling you 'the road is that way'.

Not saying that measurements aren't useful, just that they are not always 100% reliable and consistent.
post #125 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Now this is interesting. If smokarz didn't mind doing this, he could test 4 or 5 different material types and be able to show the difference.
Brightness is one thing. Can you test contrast, smokarz? How would you go about showing which material is better. I suppose that's the whole point of picking this one best for the application. Cause we already know hyper white BOC is going to be the highest Fl. Kind of what MM is getting at I believe. But the black detail I get out of my fabricland silver spandex is really good. But as I mentioned above, I have lumens to spare. Viewsonic Pro8200 shining on a 92" screen from 10ft away. I figure Fl isn't really what a guy like me is after. Any way to compare those kinds of attributes with testing?


Sorry Tux, I am just an amateur DIYer.

I lack the proper equipments and expertise to measure contrast.

However, once you run greyscale in HCFR, it will tell you your contrast. Mine was something like 500 (or 400) : 1

There used to be a group of folks on here that invested alot of times and resources in taking various types of measurements (Luminance, RGB, Gain, Contrast, etc) of many different materials.

They were doing a great service to the community, so each of us DIYer doesn't have to invest in hundreds or thousands of dollars to do our own measurements.

Unfornuately, those group of people left because scientific measurements were deemed a 'waste of time' around here, and only the experience of a few matters.
post #126 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I'll dig up the SKU.
So $250 eh :/ I've been wanting to buy sound easy which is $250. I think speakers is more my think biggrin.gif



Yeah, I know. I can use that cash on another TD12M. lol
post #127 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BartMan01 View Post

In order for measurements to be useful and reliable we would need to have one person in a controlled environment do all of the measurements with the same equipment. Given variations in room lighting, actual calibration of the tools used to measure, experience of the user, calibration of and brightness of the actual projector, etc. there is going to be as much uncertainty in the various 'measurements' presented as there is over subjective user reactions. Even then there is going to be production variances in the fabric itself, and the amount of 'stretch' you use when applying the fabric will also potentially change the results.
A more appropriate analogy would be trusting a third parties reading of a compass that they may or may not know how to read (or may have been operating in near a strong magnet) vs 100 hikers all telling you 'the road is that way'.
Not saying that measurements aren't useful, just that they are not always 100% reliable and consistent.


I absolutely agreed with that.

You can critique the methods applied in the measurements, the equipments, the environments, etc, etc.

And the results will NEVER be 100% bullet proof. I think the majority would accept that.

However, you can not dismiss it as a great aid in enabling one to make much smarter decisions.
post #128 of 544
Joann's SKU for white/white BOC is 2117232. At my store it's against the wall with other large drapery-type rolls.
post #129 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

However, you can not dismiss it as a great aid in enabling one to make much smarter decisions.

Absolutely. If I'm looking to squeeze as much brightness as possible out of an under-powered projector and measurements say one screen solution is significantly dimmer than another, I will save my time and money and not bother with that one.
post #130 of 544
Thread Starter 
Did a little calibrating tonight to get the gamma and greyscale tightens up a little.

Epson 8100 in Living Room and Dynamic modes is a PITA to calibrate.

I think I am done with tweaking for now and just sit back and enjoy the new screen.

Maybe when I have more time with nothing else to do, I might come back and tweak it a little more.

Here are some eye candies, taken with a P&S camera, so take it for what it's worth.












post #131 of 544
Thread Starter 
And a few more of XBMC Frodo with Aeon MQ4 theme.....








post #132 of 544
It's always hard to know what to do without testing with this Spandex-thingy smile.gif I'm just about ready to stretch the fabric (silver & white moleskin) over my fram (about 110"). My room is a 100% light controlled and the PJ is a Epson TW9000 (5010 US?), and i guess once i've stretched the fabric i won't want to do it all over again. And it seems like a big difference to project onto a stretched fabric as opposed to a not stretched. The PJ is on a minimal distance to the screen, as close as it's possible with a 110" screen in 16:9

So my question is, what should i try with first, whit over silver or silver over white? I know there's no exact answer, but hit me with what you think anyway smile.gif
post #133 of 544
Thread Starter 
There are a few factors that you need to take into consideration.

Do you prefer a bright imagage (14ftl - 22ftl). Or do you prefer a slightly darker picture (8-12ftl)?

Are you willing to sacrifice picture accuracy for brightness?

It would be ideal to have both, which I kinda did with my painted SW Extra White screen. I had the brightnesss (~16ftl), and also able to run my Epson 8100 in 'Natural' mode, which gives the most accurate picture. It was also much easier to calibrate with this mode.

With the white/gray spandex, I can only achieve around 7-8ftl with Natural mode. That was too dark for my preference. I had to run the PJ in 'Living Room' mode to achieve brightness around 14-15ftl. And it took a little more effort to fine tune the pic in this setting. And I still can't get GREEN saturation to dialed in and my 'RED' is still a little off.

So, definitely there are tradeoffs.

The decision is up to the user. Personally, if it was me I would do white/gray. Gray/white is going to give me a much darker picture and I am probably force to run the PJ in dynamic mode.
post #134 of 544
FWIW, I have an Optoma HD3300 and I went grey over white. I don't think I stretched the grey as much as I could have, so that may be a factor, but right now I'm kinda sitting on the fence as to what to do. I did lose some brightness, and I had to up the brightness a bit and change the gamma and contrast settings, but to me the picture is better than before because the blacks are so much better. I don't have any sort of calibrating tools, so I'm just doing this with my eyes. I like the picture, but I would really like to know that the picture I"m seeing is what the director wanted me to see. That said, what are people using for calibrating equipment these days? I'm looking for cheap, as I just soaked a big chunk of change into new speakers.
post #135 of 544
Thread Starter 
post #136 of 544
Cool. Thanks Smokarz. I'm curious as to how "off" my display is, despite it looking nice to me.
post #137 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

...
Software: Color HCFR (it's free). Allow full calibrations and quick luminance measurement.
Colorimeter: i1D3 (i1 Display Pro). On amazon for $250. The best colorimeter on the market for the price (according to the experts). If you have the cash, you can jump for the i1Pro spectrometer
Light Meter: Allows you to measure the lumens coming out of your PJ before it hit the screen so you know exactly how many lumens you have to work with instead of guessing. It's $15 on Amazon.
I am sure there are a lot more expensive and advance instruments out there. I just don't have the expertise nor the cash to look into them.

will this light meter do?
http://www.amazon.com/Mastech-Light-LX1010B-display-Luxmeter/dp/B004K0A7I6/ref=sr_1_6?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1355433127&sr=1-6
post #138 of 544
Thread Starter 



Yup. That's the one I bought.

When using it, make sure it's against the screen and facing directly at the PJ's lens.

You need to take measurements from multiple positions on the screen and then average out your data.

For example, take a reading from the Top Left of the screen, top right, center, bottom left, mid right, etc, etc.
post #139 of 544
Thread Starter 
Finally, got a chance to watch a movie last night (Dark Knight Rises blu-ray).

I have to take back what I said earlier about the graininess. There was non on HD materials.

It must have been those posters and Youtube HD quality.

I am really starting to like this spandex screen. One last thing I need to do before I close out this thread is measure its AT properties.

Hopefully that will happen sometimes around X-mas.
post #140 of 544
Quick question!!

Im putting together my own AT screen. Do I need to put acoustic panels behind the screen in between the speakers?? Does it make a difference? I have some 2x4 panels I can stick back there, just need to know now since tomorrow Im putting my frame up and once its up it will be hard to get back there again.

Thanks!

Will post pics when Im done.
post #141 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchusky77 View Post

Quick question!!
Im putting together my own AT screen. Do I need to put acoustic panels behind the screen in between the speakers?? Does it make a difference? I have some 2x4 panels I can stick back there, just need to know now since tomorrow Im putting my frame up and once its up it will be hard to get back there again.
Thanks!
Will post pics when Im done.



I would.

I still got 12 pieces of OC703 that I need to frame up. Once that's done, I'll definitely stick 3-4 pieces behind the screen. It should help with back wall reflections.

I also plan to put up a few panels above the screen. Just need to find time to get all those OC703s framed up and wrapped.
post #142 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

There are a few factors that you need to take into consideration.
Do you prefer a bright imagage (14ftl - 22ftl). Or do you prefer a slightly darker picture (8-12ftl)?
Are you willing to sacrifice picture accuracy for brightness?
It would be ideal to have both, which I kinda did with my painted SW Extra White screen. I had the brightnesss (~16ftl), and also able to run my Epson 8100 in 'Natural' mode, which gives the most accurate picture. It was also much easier to calibrate with this mode.
With the white/gray spandex, I can only achieve around 7-8ftl with Natural mode. That was too dark for my preference. I had to run the PJ in 'Living Room' mode to achieve brightness around 14-15ftl. And it took a little more effort to fine tune the pic in this setting. And I still can't get GREEN saturation to dialed in and my 'RED' is still a little off.
So, definitely there are tradeoffs.
The decision is up to the user. Personally, if it was me I would do white/gray. Gray/white is going to give me a much darker picture and I am probably force to run the PJ in dynamic mode.

Hey Smokarz, nice job with those Spider-Man pictures on page one. Those pictures are a carbon copy of what I was seeing when I did the same test as you. The difference was that I had the shirwin Williams pro classic satin white on one side, but on the other side, I had the Da lite hccv grey screen. The white sw side really has so much better colours, the grey side just doesn't have the whites , and it also has a lot less pop to the image. Definitely a white screen can be a clear winner if it's put in the right situation. If you have a dedicated cinema room don't let anyone try to convince you that a grey screen is the only way to go.

Thanks for putting up all those measurements it really helps me to understand how it all plays out when I'm doing my tests.
Cheers
post #143 of 544
From what I have gathered if it is a dedicated, totally light controlled room that white is the go to color.
post #144 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Broadway View Post

From what I have gathered if it is a dedicated, totally light controlled room that white is the go to color.

Hardly so...as far as being the only real "Go To".

Several other things must be taken into account, the most prevalent being Screen location as in respect with the proximity of the room's reflective surfaces (...and their color...) as well as the lumen output of the PJ, and it's available native contrast.

To some, "bright is always right", but if the accepted norm of most calibration criteria is to be held up as being optimal, that certainly would not hold true.

A Gray or Silver surface can almost always maintain / restore image dynamics, and if Gamma & Gray Scale adjustments can compensate for any attenuation of Whites (...usually that is the ONLY complaint....) the the end result is an image that has plenty of PoP & SiZZle and can also resist a degree of reflected light coming back toward the screen.

Not so....never so in the case of a White surface.

Added note:

Some would wholly discount the use of Living Room or Dynamic modes...even after calibration, as being completely skewered as far as color correctness. I have not found this to be true in many, if not most cases. Instead, they become "enablers' when additional brightness is required to effect / allow for a more dynamic image to be obtained on a darker hued surface.
post #145 of 544
Quote:
A Gray or Silver surface can almost always maintain / restore image dynamics, and if Gamma & Gray Scale adjustments can compensate for any attenuation of Whites (...usually that is the ONLY complaint....) the the end result is an image that has plenty of PoP & SiZZle and can also resist a degree of reflected light coming back toward the screen

^This. I have a totally light controlled room, my pj is 2000 lumens and I went with grey over white. It was dimmer than before, but I was getting blacks like I never did before. I was worried a bit that I was getting some loss of shadow detail, so I messed around with some settings (gamma, brightness, etc.) and now it looks fantastic.
post #146 of 544
Thanks for clarifying. I am still very much a greenhorn.
post #147 of 544
Speaking of settings. I hope to be getting the disney wow disc for xmas. Any suggestions on greyscale tweaks for my moleskin silver without the use of a colorimeter. I really want to gwt ir dialed in. Doubt wife would let me pony up for one.
post #148 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Broadway View Post

Speaking of settings. I hope to be getting the disney wow disc for xmas. Any suggestions on greyscale tweaks for my moleskin silver without the use of a colorimeter. I really want to gwt ir dialed in. Doubt wife would let me pony up for one.


Duke, you can check out the calibration threads for further information.

There are certainly better discs than the Disney Wow disc.

Also, there's a free blu-ray calibration disc right here on AVS (check the AVS HD709) disc.

There's not else you can do without a meter besides setting contrast and brightness. Greyscale, gamma, color gamut requires a colorimeter.
post #149 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Broadway View Post

From what I have gathered if it is a dedicated, totally light controlled room that white is the go to color.



The choice between white and gray really comes down to the PJ and the user's preference (as I've commented earlier).

I've had two white screens in my dedicated/light controlled room for years and were very happy with those.

IMO, reflected light in a light controlled room is overblown in these forums. Unless your walls and ceiling are ultra white in colors. Any dark color walls reflect very, very little light that I can see. My walls are dark gold, and my ceiling is dark brown.

You don't have to paint your entire room BLACK, IMO it is not necessary and quite ugly.
post #150 of 544
I was also scared to try a white screen because i have a pool table about 25 feet from my screen. When i'm playing pool i have 6 spot lights that light up the table completely and i'm totally happy with how beautiful the picture still looks. My ceiling are medium grey with a box of black on the inside. My wall are red and my floors are light maple colour. The white screen performs beautifully considering that it's far from being a cave.

I have a epson 8500 ub witch i'm sure is also helping things out

I also recommend painting the wall that the screen is on black, that really had a big impact it feels like my screen is floating and it also helps to blend in cheap masking panels, look awesome.
Edited by tank01 - 12/17/12 at 2:28pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Screen Section
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › 110" DIY Spandex AT Screen