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110" DIY Spandex AT Screen - Page 4

post #91 of 354
12/8/12 at 5:56pm
Thread Starter 
Interesting findings.

The white spandex (with gray backing) is more similar to a gray screen rather than a white screen.

I throw my SW Unique Gray paint screen up against the white spandex, and honestly they are very close.

I'll post some screenies when I have a chance.
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post #92 of 354
12/8/12 at 11:12pm
Yeah, I am somewhat impressed with how my screen turned out (silver over white), but damnit I knew I should have gone with white over silver as it is definitely significantly less bright than before. I'm going to switch it eventually, it's just a matter of when I can convince my wife to help as it's a pain to stretch this stuff.
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post #93 of 354
12/9/12 at 10:30am
Thread Starter 
The semi finish false wall.




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post #94 of 354
12/9/12 at 10:31am
Thread Starter 
Screen with full lights on.




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post #95 of 354
12/9/12 at 10:33am
Thread Starter 
And lights off.

Pics are kinda crappy, hands were shaking.




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post #96 of 354
12/9/12 at 12:11pm
Nice! Pics don't look blurry to me, but if you're concerned get a tripod. wink.gif
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post #97 of 354
12/9/12 at 1:27pm
Thread Starter 
I have a tripod, was just too lazy to set it up.


tongue.gif
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post #98 of 354
12/9/12 at 1:36pm
Since we're all just kind of steeling this thread for related conversation, here's the 129" screen I just completed:





Here it is compared to my previous 100" screen for a size comparison before I stretched material onto it:

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post #99 of 354
12/9/12 at 2:59pm
Sweet! Go big or go home seems to be the order of the day.
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post #100 of 354
12/9/12 at 7:52pm
Thread Starter 
Very nice Jer.

Yeah, it's funny because I went from a ~90" to 110" and it's a big difference, but wish I could go 120-130.

Was just too lazy to bring home 10ft panels, and was afraid my PJ didn't have enough lumens unless I run it in torch mode.
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post #101 of 354
12/9/12 at 8:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Very nice Jer.

Yeah, it's funny because I went from a ~90" to 110" and it's a big difference, but wish I could go 120-130.

Was just too lazy to bring home 10ft panels, and was afraid my PJ didn't have enough lumens unless I run it in torch mode.

It's funny because it's never really big enough. Even before I was done with this latest one I was thinking that I should have gone even larger. The initial plan was to use a 5x10 panel I already had and the maximum size was 129" so that's why I settled on that size. Once I gathered all my materials and was building it I realized that I could have gone even bigger with the materials I already had cut down. Oh well, probably a good thing I guess. This sucker already feels huge.
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post #102 of 354
12/11/12 at 8:17pm
Thread Starter 
Spent a few hours trying to calibrate my PJ to the new spandex screen.

Went through grayscale and gamma, but having a little difficulties with color gamut. I'll have to spent more time to work on that.

Btw, the white/silver measured at about 7 foot lambert. It is as dark as my old SW Unique gray paint. I had to run the Epson 8100 in Living Room mode to get to around 16 foot lambert. After calibration, I am at a bout 14 foot lambert.

Here are some data from the hard work. tongue.gif













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post #103 of 354
12/11/12 at 9:36pm
Why does everyone do silver over white or white over silver? Why not white over white if you are concerned about the picture being dim? In all these spandex threads I don't know if I can recall anyone doing white on white.
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post #104 of 354
12/11/12 at 9:41pm
Thread Starter 
This stuff is fairly new and not many people had experimented with it yet. If I knew it was this dark, I would have other both whites.

I have yet to see any measurement on these spandex screens.

Live and learn. I am sure someone will try white/white soon.
Edited by smokarz - 12/11/12 at 9:56pm
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post #105 of 354
12/12/12 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

This stuff is fairly new and not many people had experimented with it yet. If I knew it was this dark, I would have other both whites.
I have yet to see any measurement on these spandex screens.
Live and learn. I am sure someone will try white/white soon.

Spandex is not new, it was first used in 2006 but did not garner a big following.

And White on White has been used for some time with Mfg AT screens, and was also tested on this Forum as well. It was found to be decidedly lacking in Blacks while excelling in brightness. That is why using a Gray / Silver Spandex underlayment has become to "Go To" application for those who have actually read up on the subject and who aspire to as brightest an image as possible while not sacrificing too much in Black levels. Ditto in the reverse, as using a Silver Spandex over White gives the deepest Blacks while the White underlayment prevent undue attenuation via light passing through and being wasted, and instead returns a degree of such back to the surface image..
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post #106 of 354
12/12/12 at 7:11am
Depends on your application to. I have a really bright PJ and a small 92" screen. For me the silver made sense. Especially since I don't have total light control. Even do I almost went white over white but the silver was better.

For a large screen with a dim projector in a light controlled room, I think I'd give white on white a serious look.
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post #107 of 354
12/12/12 at 7:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Spandex is not new, it was first used in 2006 but did not garner a big following.
And White on White has been used for some time with Mfg AT screens, and was also tested on this Forum as well. It was found to be decidedly lacking in Blacks while excelling in brightness. That is why using a Gray / Silver Spandex underlayment has become to "Go To" application for those who have actually read up on the subject and who aspire to as brightest an image as possible while not sacrificing too much in Black levels. Ditto in the reverse, as using a Silver Spandex over White gives the deepest Blacks while the White underlayment prevent undue attenuation via light passing through and being wasted, and instead returns a degree of such back to the surface image..


I don't know exactly when it was first used.

However, it seems that the spandex has gained popularity within the recent months.

I looked at most threads on spandex builds in the the past several months and I can't recalled any measurements were ever taken on the different combinations of spandex (white/white, white/gray, etc.)

If those measurements exist, please link them. It would be very helpful for the DIYers to see such data.

Again, it's not about finding the best solution.

Rather, it is finding the best solution that meets the invidual's needs. White/Gray might be the best solutionf or Joe, but White/White may works better for John.

Having the available data/measurements help a person make informed and intelligent decisions.
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post #108 of 354
12/12/12 at 7:47am
It can, but actual experience multiplied by several actual end users is even better, as it imparts more assurance to uncertain DIY'ers hedging on accepting "tests' alone. and it seems those who request such tests don't seem to jump in to provide such themselves, but rather "insist" that they be provided.

All the resent experiments /Tests were done as "visual comparisons, and for any aspiring DIY'er considering going the Spandex route, they were judged to be more that sufficient as to relating the advantages and disadvantages of both.
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post #109 of 354
12/12/12 at 7:50am
It can, but actual experience multiplied by several actual end users is even better, as it imparts more assurance to uncertain DIY'ers hedging on accepting "tests' alone. and it seems those who request such tests don't seem to jump in to provide such themselves, but rather "insist" that they be provided. Also, it has been proven long ago that test results do not have an exclusive handle on determining what works...especially since 99% of such tests are done with smallish samples...not full sized projects. That very lack of real world application can grossly mislead the researcher and the potential end user.

All the resent experiments /Tests were done as "visual comparisons, and for any aspiring DIY'er considering going the Spandex route, they were judged to be more that sufficient as to relating the advantages and disadvantages of both.
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post #110 of 354
12/12/12 at 8:26am
Thread Starter 
Disagreed.

The users' experiences confirmed by measurements are better.

Your eyes and my eyes are not the same. Your room and my room are not the same, and so on and so forth.

Your i1D3 colorimter and my i1D3 colorimeter ARE THE SAME (within the manfuctater error rates).

Two different materials in the same environment measured by a set of eyes does not hold the same level of confidence/signficicant as it was measured with the proper instruments.

Unless you claim your eyes measured colors better than a $250 colorimeter (or $1k spectrometer) then I fully accept your 'measurement by eyes'.


PS. With the proper equipment, I can confidently state that the white/gray spandex is 8-10ftL dimmer than a painted SW Extra White. Can you say the same with a set of eyes?
Now that's information that could be very useful for someone that want to go from a white paint screent to spandex.

Now, let's assumed that we also have measurement for white/white spandex and says it's 5-6ftL brighter than a white/gray combo.

Coudl this information be useful and enable the user to make much better decisions? You bet!
Edited by smokarz - 12/12/12 at 8:37am
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post #111 of 354
12/12/12 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

And White on White has been used for some time with Mfg AT screens, and was also tested on this Forum as well. It was found to be decidedly lacking in Blacks while excelling in brightness.

Do you happen to remember how it compared to various other white solutions? I would assume it would not have worse blacks than something like the Sherwin Williams paint, for example, unless of course it were even whiter than that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

PS. With the proper equipment, I can confidently state that the white/gray spandex is 8-10ftL dimmer than a painted SW Extra White. Can you say the same with a set of eyes?
Now that's information that could be very useful for someone that want to go from a white paint screent to spandex.
Now, let's assumed that we also have measurement for white/white spandex and says it's 5-6ftL brighter than a white/gray combo.

Smokarz, I think I may have already asked you this, but now I can't seem to find my post, so maybe my dementia is kicking in -- do you happen to have any blackout cloth available? I would be curious to see how the white over grey spandex compares.

If white over white is somewhere between BOC and one of the white paints, that seems to me like it would be a good solution for a lot of people.
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post #112 of 354
12/12/12 at 8:57am
Your problem is that you expect Users to be able to measure their examples. They cannot. The tests are then only guidelines to consider, not actual depictions of use in real life. Those prices for Test gear you mention are EXACTLY why people do not take measurements themselves, And as for those who do, the conclusions they draw from them can be skewered by the very approach they take, and in no way can be definitive. They are just more to consider when trying to determine what will work...or not.

It is far more definitive to read of many satisfied End User experiences than to have someone quibble and exclaim how little one's opinions matter when compared to tests. And by far and away, many End Users experience decry to stated test results, so when that happens, what comes next? It always seems that the End user is accused of not really knowing what he's seeing. That is the real issue in depending on "Tests" to govern choices that are needed to be made in actual experience.

And yes...I do in fact have enough practical experience over 10 years to make judgements out of hand. Many who felt the need to go down the "Testing" route simply had to, or did so initially to give their "opinions' more weight in their drive to be purely confrontational. I specifically recall how a few of the folks you hold in such high esteem used to rant and rail about how unfair it was for me to have such an advantage in being able to make up full sized examples "all the time" and claim that having such an advantage should disqualify me from helping others on this Forum. Why, some even had to go to School to even get to where they could effectively do anything. Perfectly understandable, but also quite telling. You yourself posted recently about how "I" post about my only offering a few select applications to consider, about my being willing to sell paint to members, or go to them to make screens for them. Why did you feel compelled to do that? Where do you find that justification in posting such? Where are your examples of such? Or are you simply repeating the things you've read so often elsewhere. Mostly just to try to nail down a point you wish to make, just like those who bright forth the idea that oif you don't publish a through round of tests on a specific application, it doesn't deserve to even be considered worthwhile.

So since you have not opted to spend that money, nor do / make up all those tests you clamor for, why not stop trying to be confrontational and offer actual advice that is measured and helpful and based on what you actually have experienced, not just parrot the "party Line" you've read elsewhere.

As far as the White over Gray spandex, yes...I already know it is a dimmer application that virtually any White Paint, and it did not / does not take a meter to prove such. It is plainly apparent to both the eyes and the Camera.
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post #113 of 354
12/12/12 at 9:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Smokarz, I think I may have already asked you this, but now I can't seem to find my post, so maybe my dementia is kicking in -- do you happen to have any blackout cloth available? I would be curious to see how the white over grey spandex compares.
If white over white is somewhere between BOC and one of the white paints, that seems to me like it would be a good solution for a lot of people.


I don't have any BOC.

But if someone can send me a piece of BOC, I would gladgly throws it up and take some quick readings.

Likewise, if someone also want to send me some white/white, I can take readings as well. I put all my leftover spandex in the trash.
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post #114 of 354
12/12/12 at 9:26am
I'll see if I have another good-sized piece of BOC left, I might not have anything large enough. If I do, I'll PM you for address.

Otherwise, if there is a Joann near you, it's almost always on sale for $3.50 a yard (36" x 54"). I think you can sign up for the email list on their website and that might get you a 50% coupon if it's not on sale. It's Roc-Lon Budget Blackout white/white. For some reason they only have the white/ecru on the site right now, and I'm not sure which is the "good" side.
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post #115 of 354
12/12/12 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Do you happen to remember how it compared to various other white solutions? I would assume it would not have worse blacks than something like the Sherwin Williams paint, for example, unless of course it were even whiter than that?
Smokarz, I think I may have already asked you this, but now I can't seem to find my post, so maybe my dementia is kicking in -- do you happen to have any blackout cloth available? I would be curious to see how the white over grey spandex compares.
If white over white is somewhere between BOC and one of the white paints, that seems to me like it would be a good solution for a lot of people.

I may have thrown my BO cloth out, but I'd say it was really close to my white over silver that I have now. It was also really close to the Elite Cinewhite sample I have too.
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post #116 of 354
12/12/12 at 9:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

I'll see if I have another good-sized piece of BOC left, I might not have anything large enough. If I do, I'll PM you for address.
Otherwise, if there is a Joann near you, it's almost always on sale for $3.50 a yard (36" x 54"). I think you can sign up for the email list on their website and that might get you a 50% coupon if it's not on sale. It's Roc-Lon Budget Blackout white/white. For some reason they only have the white/ecru on the site right now, and I'm not sure which is the "good" side.


Ok. I'll try to pick up a yard of the material at Joanns then.

What's the exact SKU#?
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post #117 of 354
12/12/12 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Your problem is that you expect Users to be able to measure their examples. They cannot. The tests are then only guidelines to consider, not actual depictions of use in real life. Those prices for Test gear you mention are EXACTLY why people do not take measurements themselves, And as for those who do, the conclusions they draw from them can be skewered by the very approach they take, and in no way can be definitive. They are just more to consider when trying to determine what will work...or not.
It is far more definitive to read of many satisfied End User experiences than to have someone quibble and exclaim how little one's opinions matter when compared to tests. And by far and away, many End Users experience decry to stated test results, so when that happens, what comes next? It always seems that the End user is accused of not really knowing what he's seeing. That is the real issue in depending on "Tests" to govern choices that are needed to be made in actual experience.
And yes...I do in fact have enough practical experience over 10 years to make judgements out of hand. Many who felt the need to go down the "Testing" route simply had to, or did so initially to give their "opinions' more weight in their drive to be purely confrontational. I specifically recall how a few of the folks you hold in such high esteem used to rant and rail about how unfair it was for me to have such an advantage in being able to make up full sized examples "all the time" and claim that having such an advantage should disqualify me from helping others on this Forum. Why, some even had to go to School to even get to where they could effectively do anything. Perfectly understandable, but also quite telling. You yourself posted recently about how "I" post about my only offering a few select applications to consider, about my being willing to sell paint to members, or go to them to make screens for them. Why did you feel compelled to do that? Where do you find that justification in posting such? Where are your examples of such? Or are you simply repeating the things you've read so often elsewhere. Mostly just to try to nail down a point you wish to make, just like those who bright forth the idea that oif you don't publish a through round of tests on a specific application, it doesn't deserve to even be considered worthwhile.
So since you have not opted to spend that money, nor do / make up all those tests you clamor for, why not stop trying to be confrontational and offer actual advice that is measured and helpful and based on what you actually have experienced, not just parrot the "party Line" you've read elsewhere.
As far as the White over Gray spandex, yes...I already know it is a dimmer application that virtually any White Paint, and it did not / does not take a meter to prove such. It is plainly apparent to both the eyes and the Camera.



While I agreed that experience is highly valuble. I can not agree with anyone that completely dismissed science.

If I am lost in the woods, I trust my compass over a hiker.
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post #118 of 354
12/12/12 at 9:50am
What size do you need to test it smokarz? I kept about an 8" wide strip of the Joanne's spandex to do AT testing on. Could you test the Fl on something that small? I think this stuff I got from Joanne's is something more people need to look into. It's $9.99/yrd and no shipping costs of course. And they'll sell it by a 1/2 yard, so people could buy 2.5yrds instead of 3yrds. Some potential savings there. But I'm a test junky as well and would be reluctant to recommend it without testing it first. As you may recognize me from the DIY speaker forums, I test the crap out of anything before I recommend it there.

Can you recommend a starter package for a guy like me wanting to get into testing screens?
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post #119 of 354
12/12/12 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

While I agreed that experience is highly valuble. I can not agree with anyone that completely dismissed science.
If I am lost in the woods, I trust my compass over a hiker.

.....and you won't find anywhere on this Forum wheret I ever dismissed "science"...only the way it is sometimes used as a Club to beat down other ideas and concepts. Nor have I ever said it did not have a place in the scheme of things....only that it has been used by some whose schemes have been less than pristine in their motives.

Yet some like to attribute those kinds of thoughts and words to me because it simply bolsters their own point/s they wish to make.

As for that Compass, it can be useful, but if you choose to stare at it too long you will miss most of what is to be discovered around you in practical experience, or worse, walk over the veritable "Cliff" of complacency.

Better to try to reason out why you got "lost" in the first place. Perhaps you should have had a Guide? Someone who knows the Woods, knows how to navigate by the Sun & Starts alone, and does not need a Compass.

Nuff said. cool.gif
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post #120 of 354
12/12/12 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I don't have any BOC.
But if someone can send me a piece of BOC, I would gladgly throws it up and take some quick readings.
Likewise, if someone also want to send me some white/white, I can take readings as well. I put all my leftover spandex in the trash.

i have a sample of seymour fabric. would you be willing to give it a try?
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