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Windows 8 - my verdict. - Page 14

post #391 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherbona View Post

This sounds very interesting, thank you for this. Can you (or anyone else) compare it to the Stardock solution? I haven't tried 8 since the preview, but if I could get proper Start functionality back in combination with removal or suppression of all the MetroUI crap I might give it a try again sometime, and this seems like a step towards that. (But it still kind of rubs me the wrong way that MS doesn't accomodate their customers out-of-box, something they easily could have done.)
Stardock's Start8 actually looks and feels more native to Windows 8, as it has a skin that fits in with the rest of the UI.

Start Is Back may be a more "native" solution technically, but Start8 doesn't really feel any different to me. It still has full Start Menu functionality etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctviggen View Post

You mean all of Apple's latest products. My wife's iPhone doesn't have 4G, though I bought my phone at the same time and it has 4G. Apple is always behind.
Apple often leads the way with a number of technologies, but is reluctant to adopt them early when they are in a less-than-ideal state. Apple were using Thunderbolt for the best part of a year before any PC manufacturers released Thunderbolt capable motherboards/systems. They were first to use Display Port, Firewire was always much better supported on Macs compared to PCs that settled on USB2 most of the time, despite it being a lot slower. (480mbps theoretical compared to Firewire's 400mbps, but in real world use, Firewire was almost twice as fast)

On the other hand, Apple avoided the first generation 4G chipsets which either did not offer full 4G capabilities, or had a significant impact on battery life. Even then, they were too early with the iPad, as 4G service does not work here. (it only supports certain frequencies, rather than global 4G)

And I was under the impression that the latest Google Nexus phone didn't have 4G support, so it's hardly just been an issue with Apple.

They are also leading the way when it comes to mobile graphics. Apple's devices are always at the top of performance comparisons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

It was amazing to me that anyone bought the 4S. I bought my Android 3G phone in 2010, and almost waited then for a 4G phone--they were only a few months away.
Currently I wouldn't buy a phone without NFC, even though I'd have little/no use for it today. I don't like buying things that are obsolete as soon as I buy them, so that rules out an iPhone 5 (as does the non-removable battery which effectively limits the phone's life to the life of the battery).
In what way is the iPhone 5 "obsolete" ? Because it lacks NFC? (which is a big security risk in its current state) iPhone batteries are simple to replace.
post #392 of 622
Yes, because the iPhone 5 lacks NFC. I don't buy a smartphone expecting it to have a one year life.
post #393 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Stardock's Start8 actually looks and feels more native to Windows 8, as it has a skin that fits in with the rest of the UI.

Start Is Back may be a more "native" solution technically, but Start8 doesn't really feel any different to me. It still has full Start Menu functionality etc.
Thanks! I remember Stardock fondly from my OS/2 Warp days. I'm thinking whenever I dip my toes into the water again I may go that direction (but having choices is good!).
post #394 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonyad View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

You seem to think that Metro replaces the desktop. It does not. You can have a dozen applications on the screen no problem if they are desktop applications.

I was downloading and installing Silverlight and wanted to play FreeCell. Previously I could monitor what else was going on because the game was windowed. Now that FreeCell is a "metro app" it's hogging the whole screen and I don't know the state of my desktop unless I switch away from the game. Is this really how these game apps interact? Full screen task switching was a godsend back with Windows 3.0, but this kind of limitation is stupid now. Is there a way to make the old windows 7 games run under 8?

Yes. Back in the pre-release days a member on The My Digital Life Forums posted a link for Windows 7 Games adapted for Windows 8 (x86/x64. Direct download link

This install worked perfectly with both prerelease versions as well as RTM Windows 8 Pro. I do like some of the new Win 8 games played in Metro view, but like you I often prefer to play Solitaire, Mahjong Titans, and FreeCell on the desktop with other windows like TWiT live, etc.
post #395 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Adams View Post

Yes. Back in the pre-release days a member on The My Digital Life Forums posted a link for Windows 7 Games adapted for Windows 8 (x86/x64. Direct download link
This install worked perfectly with both prerelease versions as well as RTM Windows 8 Pro. I do like some of the new Win 8 games played in Metro view, but like you I often prefer to play Solitaire, Mahjong Titans, and FreeCell on the desktop with other windows like TWiT live, etc.

Thank you. Now I have my Free Cell back the way it should be.
post #396 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

But there is still a distinct UI on the desktop in Windows. Once you are on the desktop, Metro does not intrude on it in any way, especially if you use the taskbar as your application launcher, in the same way that you would use the dock on a Mac. (but the taskbar contains some extra functionality the dock does not, such as window management and being able to pin items to an application)
The Mac has already had this since OS X Lion (10.7) with Launchpad (and Launchpad gained search in 10.8) over a year before Windows 8 shipped. The difference is that unlike Windows, you aren't used to having anything beside the dock (taskbar) or finder (explorer) to launch applications, whereas in Windows, they replaced the Start Menu with it. (something that has never existed on OS X) Functionally, the desktop is similar in Windows 8 and OS X.

Launchpad on OS X doesn't replace the desktop like Metro does on Win8. it's simply one more way to launch apps (which I'm unlikely to ever use) from the desktop. The Finder and dock are still there. If Metro ran on the desktop and there was still a taskbar at the bottom, I think that would improve the experience considerably. The part of Metro that is most annoying is that it covers the desktop instead of integrating with it. It's two completely separate UI's that you continually have to toggle between. That's just dumb any way you slice it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The hot corners can be disabled via the registry (and possibly the group policy editor?) or via a tool such as this to simplify things. (it makes the changes for you) Other than that, there are a number of useful features they have added for multi-monitor setups. (particularly with the new taskbar)

Why would I want to disable the hot corners? They are necessary to access the charms bar and app switcher, etc... I'm just pointing out that on a multi-monitor setup, it's easy to overshoot them. I never had the problem of over-shooting the Start menu. wink.gif


My verdict: I'm happy Microsoft plans to support Win7 until 2020! Win8 has some interesting features but I see no compelling argument for upgrading. There just isn't a value-add for the way I use a pc. In fact, it's a net minus if it means I need to learn a whole new set of commands and gestures, and install 3rd party 'fixes' just to get back to even. Maybe I'll get a Surface tablet one day just for kicks.
post #397 of 622
Win8 = fail in major ways, sure it makes a good UI for the phone but for the PC it just isn't going to fly on a developers stand point and to the end user. Here are some very compelling reasons as to why 8 is already an epic fail from a developers pov. Sales figures are poor across the board for Surface and Windows RT if you google it.

My feelings towards Win8 is more geared for the phone and that's where is should stay. But I also have issues with the phone itself being that I just bought a Lumia 810 a week ago. They seriously rushed this product and there are a lot of things that are just plain broken or MS just took away like for instance Zune. Now syncing your music is a serious train wreck with WP8. They really need to fix the bugs and lack of apps asap for WP8. As mentioned in the technet post everything is locked in the marketplace and makes things difficult to accomplish. Fort instance I was trying to side load an app from the sd card and cannot do this because I can't get the SD card to show in marketplace. You also can't load apps to the SD card itself either which I understand this as a security issue as apps are ez to hack into.

As for me I'll stick with W7 and be happy till 2020 and hope a serious PC OS is released in the future because W8 aint it!

Technet forums:

VeryBoringNickname455 Points


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The problem with Windows 8 is simply that it feels as if Windows 95 (yea, 95) is actually the successor version, not the other way around.
1. The desktop has multiple windows, Metro has not.

2. Desktop programs can be resized, Metro apps cannot.
3. The desktop has drag and drop between applications, Metro has not. Instead of just selecting the items you want to export and actually move them into the other program, you need to handle with "charms" which comes across far more unintuitive than just dragging and dropping.
4. The desktop has nearly unlimited multi-tasking abilities, Metro has not.
5. Metro apps are far more limited in scope, by design, than desktop programs.
6. Desktop programs have depth and 3D, Metro apps on the other hand seem to be approved by the Flat Earth Society.
7. Desktop programs are usually more colorful and vibrant, the Metro design principle consists of CGA style mono-color.
Winzip for desktop:

WinRT version:

Which one does look more like a C64 program?
8. You can open up other programs in the desktop, through the start menu, without disrupting workflow. On the other hand the start screen is something like the "item menu" in games where you dress up your character with weapons etc. Everyone knows that it is quite distracting switching between item menu and game world in games, and Microsoft brought this concept onto its flag ship product! Hooray.
9. Desktop programs can be easily distributed, Metro desktops are locked-in into the store.
And that's just the problem of the WinRT part. The fact that Win8 has multiple control panels and update mechanisms and is a duality monster hasn't been touched upon here. Yet alone that Win8 apologists in all seriousness propose arcane keyboard shortcuts as solution for some of the glaring problems, where previous versions worked just fine without using them.
If an alien would just land on our planet and see Windows 7 and Windows 8 (and its programs) for the first time, without no prior knowledge, he would think Windows 7 is the successor, not 8.
I am not "against change", I am not married to the start menu or Win32. If something truly better would come along, I would be sold. But Win8 just isn't.
I still can't get over it. They took a phone GUI and put it on full fledged computers as default...
The premise is so retarded when you take your time to think about it for more than one millisecond, just unbelievable. Like putting a bike into a car chassis.

That they were able to go with this and run it to the very end is just incredible.

Edited by VeryBoringNickname Friday, November 16, 2012 6:19 PM
Edited by Ronnie VernonMVP, Moderator Monday, November 19, 2012 3:30 AM edit

link: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/2956149e-5ca6-4e5a-af76-d47547dc1a13
post #398 of 622
Very good post, and some interesting points. I agree, 8 seems like a big step back in functionality and appeal, and Metro in particular is just awful on large, full HD (or greater) non-touch displays. It's like what you'd get if you have a few tubs of paint to a bunch of 5 year olds.
post #399 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

Launchpad on OS X doesn't replace the desktop like Metro does on Win8. it's simply one more way to launch apps (which I'm unlikely to ever use) from the desktop. The Finder and dock are still there.
Metro doesn't replace the desktop, taskbar (dock) or explorer (finder) either.

Literally the only difference would be if OS X decided to boot up with Launchpad running when you first started up your computer, and if Launchpad gained the ability to run iPad apps. That's the only difference between OS X right now, and Windows 8.
Well, except Microsoft isn't pushing for fullscreen applications on the desktop with Windows 8, like Apple has been since OS X Lion.

And for whatever reason, people are freaking out over that as if they somehow stopped all your other programs running on the desktop like they always did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

If Metro ran on the desktop and there was still a taskbar at the bottom, I think that would improve the experience considerably. The part of Metro that is most annoying is that it covers the desktop instead of integrating with it. It's two completely separate UI's that you continually have to toggle between. That's just dumb any way you slice it.
It's a fullscreen app launcher. A lot of people would argue that if you are trying to find an application, it would be best to make full use of your monitor rather than just a tiny corner of your screen. (assuming it's not pinned to the taskbar/dock)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

Why would I want to disable the hot corners? They are necessary to access the charms bar and app switcher, etc... I'm just pointing out that on a multi-monitor setup, it's easy to overshoot them. I never had the problem of over-shooting the Start menu. wink.gif
The start menu was just as easy to over-shoot as the hot corners are on a multi-monitor setup. Short of locking the cursor from traversing from one screen to another, there's no good solution for that. Multi-monitor setups are productivity killers in my experience though. I would much rather have a larger single screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

In fact, it's a net minus if it means I need to learn a whole new set of commands and gestures, and install 3rd party 'fixes' just to get back to even.
There are no new commands or gestures that you need to learn, but there are a lot of optional shortcuts that have been added.

Start Screen replacements are not "fixes" they're an option for people that are set in their ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

Maybe I'll get a Surface tablet one day just for kicks.
I don't recommend it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tman247 View Post

Very good post, and some interesting points. I agree, 8 seems like a big step back in functionality
In what way is Windows 8 a step back in functionality over Windows 7? There are a ton of fixes, improvements, and new features for the desktop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimo View Post

The problem with Windows 8 is simply that it feels as if Windows 95 (yea, 95) is actually the successor version, not the other way around.
1.
...
9.
Metro apps are entirely optional on the desktop. The start screen is easily replaced if you can't adjust to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimo View Post

And that's just the problem of the WinRT part. The fact that Win8 has multiple control panels and update mechanisms and is a duality monster hasn't been touched upon here.
Actually, a number of people have brought this up. I don't see a problem with keeping Metro settings inside Metro, and Desktop settings on the Desktop. I wouldn't want to change desktop settings from within Metro or vice-versa. I don't understand why anyone would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimo View Post

Like putting a bike into a car chassis.
More like putting a bike rack on your car.
post #400 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

There are no new commands or gestures that you need to learn, but there are a lot of optional shortcuts that have been added.

I was happy to find that I still have keyboard shortcuts to launch my favorite 10 apps by pinning them to the taskbar since they kept the W7 taskbar shortcuts intact (Win+0-9)

Like the additional optional shortcuts. For peak productivity, I've long abandoned the mouse, so I really appreciate that the new gesture shortcuts also have optional key combinations to get the same results.



Since this is an HTPC forum, and a large portion of users launch WMC or XBMC at boot and do little else, it's odd that this thread has continued for so long while often pointing out things completely unrelated to home theater ?

In specific regards to home theater, there is the speed http://lifehacker.com/5841702/windows-8-speed-tests-its-faster-at-pretty-much-everything

Has anyone used the following "Script-bypass-Metro" method? http://www.techspot.com/guides/551-bypass-metro/
post #401 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I was happy to find that I still have keyboard shortcuts to launch my favorite 10 apps by pinning them to the taskbar since they kept the W7 taskbar shortcuts intact (Win+0-9)
Like the additional optional shortcuts. For peak productivity, I've long abandoned the mouse, so I really appreciate that the new gesture shortcuts also have optional key combinations to get the same results.
Agreed. The fact that I'm developing shoulder problems from mouse use is another good reason for me to avoid the mouse wherever possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Since this is an HTPC forum, and a large portion of users launch WMC or XBMC at boot and do little else, it's odd that this thread has continued for so long while often pointing out things completely unrelated to home theater ?
While this is the "HTPC" section, I think it's the only PC section on here? (other than games)
post #402 of 622
Still liking Win8, but hating all the ads and product placement for Win8 and Win8 tablets. Almost makes me wish the campaign ads would come back.
post #403 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

Still liking Win8, but hating all the ads and product placement for Win8 and Win8 tablets. Almost makes me wish the campaign ads would come back.

My feeling is that I hate any native metro apps, but kind of like the start screen vs start menu. So long as I keep programs from launching into metro I'm happy with win8, can't say it does anything more for me than win7 though.

PS if I had a tablet I'm sure I would hate any programs that launched in desktop mode. I still think combining the two interfaces was a mistake, but I can't say metro is a fail for tablets.
post #404 of 622
Then there are innovators like ASUS
ASUS Announces TAICHI

its a dual screen device - a highend notebook, combined with a tablet.
post #405 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Metro doesn't replace the desktop, taskbar (dock) or explorer (finder) either.

I don't care that you're a shill for Microsoft, but that statement is just plain silly.
Reminds me of what Chico Marx used to say, "Who you going to believe? Me, or your own eyes?"

Enjoy Win8 if it suits you. I'll stick with Win7.
tongue.gif
post #406 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

I don't care that you're a shill for Microsoft, but that statement is just plain silly.
Silly? I don't think you've even looked at a Windows 8 machine, let alone used the OS. Metro is just as avoidable in Windows 8, as Launchpad is in OS X Lion/Mountain Lion, with the exception that the system boots to the Start Screen (which is not a "metro app") by default, and that can easily be changed. I haven't seen anything Metro, including the Start Screen, for weeks now.

I spent enough time with the final version of Windows 8 prior to launch with the developer preview to know that I personally didn't want to use the Start Screen (though I can see its merits, I prefer not to use it - I don't think it's terrible at all) so I did a fresh install of the OS when the consumer version was released, installed Start8 right away, and with the exception of grabbing screenshots for this thread, haven't had a reason to see anything Metro at all.

And a shill for Microsoft? That's a new one, especially when I've told people to avoid the Surface several times in this topic, and to buy an iPad if they want a tablet.
I'm just shocked at the amount of misinformation going around about Windows 8 when it's clearly an upgrade for desktop users, and there are plenty of cheap/free options if you want to use Windows 8's new features/improvements but aren't willing to give the Start Screen a chance.
Edited by Chronoptimist - 11/26/12 at 5:16pm
post #407 of 622
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I'm just shocked at the amount of misinformation going around about Windows 8 when it's clearly an upgrade for desktop users, and there are plenty of cheap/free options if you want to use Windows 8's new features/improvements but aren't willing to give the Start Screen a chance.

My friend, a statement like "when it's clearly an upgrade for desktop users", is a very individualistic perspective. You may be inclined to think so, but that has zero effect on the person sitting next to you. Neither is right or wrong, just different perspectives.

My "perspective" is more about "perception" rather than individually nitpicking about features. Windows 8 just does not come across as a polished product. It seems half baked, and I'm fairly sure, over time Microsoft will work out the kinks. Just not now.

Does that make me "right"? Absolutely not.smile.gif
post #408 of 622
There is nothing half-baked about it.
post #409 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Windows 8 just does not come across as a polished product. It seems half baked, and I'm fairly sure, over time Microsoft will work out the kinks. Just not now.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider half baked in Windows 8?
post #410 of 622
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

There is nothing half-baked about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scl23enn4m3 View Post

Out of curiosity, what do you consider half baked in Windows 8?

One word. Metro.

Longer words will take a few pages. smile.gif

Remember..."Windows 8"....not to be confused with Windows RT, is designed to replace Windows 7. And it fails miserably at that.

Now, that is MY opinion. Does that make me right.....tongue.gif
post #411 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

One word. Metro.
Longer words will take a few pages. smile.gif
Remember..."Windows 8"....not to be confused with Windows RT, is designed to replace Windows 7. And it fails miserably at that.
Now, that is MY opinion. Does that make me right.....tongue.gif

I should have rephrased my question. What about Metro impedes your work flow that Windows 7 didn't? I'm not trying to attack anyone, I understand everyone uses their PCs differently. For me personally, the Metro interface and the way to switch between things has greatly sped up the way I navigate my computer. But at the same time, I am predominantly a keyboard shortcut user which I believe Microsoft catered to very well.
post #412 of 622
I wonder if the reaction would be if win7 had metro and win8 had the old start menu.
post #413 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

I don't care that you're a shill for Microsoft, but that statement is just plain silly.
Reminds me of what Chico Marx used to say, "Who you going to believe? Me, or your own eyes?"
Enjoy Win8 if it suits you. I'll stick with Win7.
tongue.gif

In your case, it should be someone else, because the statement was hardly silly. It was correct.
post #414 of 622
More silly press bashing of Win8.

http://www.techweb.com/news/240142618/windows-8-fizzling-time-for-windows-classic.html

Yes, standing outside a Microsoft store to see how many Win8 purchases are made is a really great way to find out how well Win8 is selling. rolleyes.gif

The lack of interest in the Surface tablet might be a concern, especially given the nauseating level of advertising. I guess people don't really want to dance with their tablet.

We've already addressed why Win8 wouldn't be expected to generate a lot of new PC sales.

One out of three is bad.
post #415 of 622
I played with a bunch of tablets at the store. And while Surface is very cool, I'm sure a lot of people are waiting for Surface Pro which comes with Windows 8. That won't come out until late January. A lot of people want full Windows. And while Windows RT maybe fits the tablet market, the general masses are probably more comfortable with Windows 8 since it can run all of their software. And it's the idea of a tablet and a notebook that attracts people. I was talking to a guy who's buying for his kid at college and he wants to get a laptop for her but also a tablet. And he was setting his sights on the Atom version of the Samsung. I'm trying to get him to squeeze more into the budget to get the i5 version rather than the Atom (Clover Trail).

The sexiest tablets I played with were the Samsung ATIV ones. A great tablet form. But when docked, it's a full-fledged notebook. Even closes like a notebook. It also comes with a nice capacitive pen. If I was buying a laptop this very moment, that's probably the one I'd go for, especially the i5 version. The Atom version was nice but thinking long-term, since laptops can't really be upgraded, I'd go with the i5.

I also liked the Sony ones with the sliding screen. But it's awfully heavy. I know they wanted a classy body (the Sony style) but it added to the weight. I'm thinking the tablet/dock is the way to go to get the best of both worlds.

I liked the Lenovo Yoga but it feels weird to have the keyboard exposed when in tablet mode. There's an upcoming Thinkpad X1 Carbon Touch and that's got a lot of people excited but I don't think it can detach or fold like a tablet.
post #416 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

After spending months with the pre-release versions and a few days with the release versions, here's my verdict in one word.

Verdict: ptooey

Longer verdict: ugh...agh...ouch...wtf...what were they thinking....jesus christ...oh for crying out loud....really?

My personal opinion is that Windows 8 is crap. It's Microsoft's feeble attempt to catch up to the Android and Apple UIs, and they butchered what was good in Windows, and didn't come close to their competitors UIs. I did give them the benefit of doubt, by buying a copy of Pro and the Media Center "pack", but sadly I'll chalk that up as a tax write off.

Since, Microsoft doesn't seem to be listening to their users, what's the common person supposed to do? Why, short their stock, of course! Yes sir, I'm short their stock, as Windows 8 is an unmitigated disaster, and I have no other way to complain to Microsoft.

Good luck Mr Balmer.

I am largely a Mac user but I bought and installed Windows 8 Pro on a Tablet PC and a desktop. I am not quite sure what to make of it all as it is a bit of a hybrid. The idea of having a standardized Windows across all devices is good. Microsoft had no choice but to appease the base with the RT vs full Windows issue. I hope they stick to their guns and get rid of the full Windows. They can't have it both ways. Being backward compatible is laudable but is not practical. They have to phase out the full Windows thing. I actually like Metro but I do wish that everything in the Windows App Store ran on RT. It's confusing as it currently is set up.

The Surface Pro may be interesting to most, but these Slate systems have been around a long time. The battery life, cost, weight, etc ... have always been difficult to get right. I personally am partial to a stylus on a Wacom type setup but the future seems to be otherwise. Finally, it is a shame that all tablets seem to be heading widescreen. I far prefer a 4:3 screen. That makes both portrait and landscape modes reasonable. Unfortunately video is forcing the move to widescreen.

Philip
post #417 of 622
people spent a lot of money getting rid of all their 4:3 displays in favor of 16:9 displays. kind of weird that apple fans are towing the company line toward 4:3 displays.

I like 16:9 because it's better for reading. whether it's a comic book:


or whether it's reading important stuff:


and of course, it's better for video.

you should check out some of the new windows 8 machines out there like the Samsung which does have the stylus pen. As Windows 7 PCs get sold out of the channel and the channel gets stuffed with Windows 8 models, things will start getting really excited. There are a lot of upcoming Windows 8 machines that look really slick.

I'm thinking Windows 8 will definitely win out over Windows RT, at least in the short term. Maybe in 5 years, things will be more toward RT. But not until the marketplace is big enough that people can give up their traditional Windows software.
post #418 of 622
post #419 of 622
Quote:

That and the free media center pack (until 1/31/12)
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/feature-packs
post #420 of 622
But how do I buy the windows 8 ?
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