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Windows 8 - my verdict. - Page 20

post #571 of 622
I wouldn't say a "touch enabled device makes Windows 8 shine"

I would say a touch enabled device is essential if you want it to be tolerably usable.

It's only to be expected: Win8 is designed with touch in mind, and without that it's horrid.

It's like saying most people can get along with Win7 but you should really be using a mouse. Well, duh.

The difference is that PC's had a mouse for so many years before Win7 it was virtually guaranteed no-one would be struggling with just a keyboard. And in any case, mice are dirt cheap.

By contrast, the vast legacy PC base doesn't have a touchscreen, lots of the upcoming PC's won't either, because touchscreens are anything but cheap - espescially as the world has become accustomed to larger screen sizes.

This whole fiasco could so easily have been avoided, if Win8 had included the option: operate in classic Windows or Metro modes. But Microsoft wanted to push their unified front end...
post #572 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I still don't agree that Vista was that bad an OS. The issues surrounding it's launch were actually mild compared to some of the issues that surrounded the launch of XP. XP wasn't "useable" for the majority of it's users (especially corporate) until SP1, after which XP went on to become the best MS OS to that date. And most of the blame should have fallen to third parties in both cases because of failure to provide proper drivers for the change in architecture despite plenty of advanced notice from MS.

Edit: I also can't discount Apple's marketing campaign against Vista. It's probably the most effective marketing campaign against a competitor I've ever seen.

But perceptions are more important than reality, which Apple encouraged. The lack of corporate takeup for Vista is another case in point - XP worked well enough and Vista had a lot of teething pains so it was labeled as bad, then Win7 was good because it cleaned up everything perceived to be wrong with Vista. Blue will be no different.
post #573 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

But perceptions are more important than reality, which Apple encouraged. The lack of corporate takeup for Vista is another case in point - XP worked well enough and Vista had a lot of teething pains so it was labeled as bad, then Win7 was good because it cleaned up everything perceived to be wrong with Vista. ...
Yup, I agree with that entirely.
post #574 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

That's my reasoning too.
I still don't agree that Vista was that bad an OS. The issues surrounding it's launch were actually mild compared to some of the issues that surrounded the launch of XP.
The issues may have been mild in your view, but they were so in your face, it really did make your PC unusable. UAC was way too strict, ruining the whole experience of using your PC. So much so that I quickly went back to XP. Win 7 took UAC down a notch and worked much better. Win 8 on the other hand has too many usability issues to count, not just a few major annoyances like Vista. They have a lot more work to do to make Win 8 usable for the average mouse-using customer like most of us. If I wanted to use a keyboard for everything, I'd still have DOS.
post #575 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

The issues may have been mild in your view, but they were so in your face, it really did make your PC unusable. UAC was way too strict, ruining the whole experience of using your PC. So much so that I quickly went back to XP. Win 7 took UAC down a notch and worked much better.

I disagree and run 7 with the same level of UAC as Vista, my reasoning
  • I don't install tons of programs, over 80% get installed right after Windows
  • When installing programs, tons of freeware now has multiple "gotcha" crap to "deselect" already (e.g. Ask.com, bing, and Google toolbars)
  • No matter what level of UAC you have, installing a program always takes quite a few mouse clicks for me (I never use "express" or "recommended")
  • An extra 2 clicks was trivial, so I never disabled it (thought disabling it was trivial)
  • The value was great whenever I was done setting up and just using the computer (i.e. Getting a UAC notification whilst not installing anything - good catch)
post #576 of 622
If you read between the lines of that MS 'interview', they have not acknowledged or denied anything. They make a big deal of 100m Windows 8 licenses 'sold', but she was obviously intensely briefed beforehand on what she could/couldn't say. MS therefore didn't really give anything away, but early preview releases of Blue suggest not that much has changed. Metro has been tweaked for sure (god it needed it), but there's no massive change of direction even if MS are supposed to have 'listened to customer feedback' (why didn't they do this during beta testing????).

Leaked builds have shown a start button back on the desktop, but all this does it take you to Metro again (ie still no start menu), and while you may be able to boot straight to the desktop, Blue still pulls you back into Metro at every opportunity it can. Unfounded rumours also suggest MS might now have made it impossible for 3rd party start button replacements to work, but we'll wait and see on that one.

MS are not going to change direction with 8, they just want to do enough to divert some of the scathing opinions and try to co-erse opinions back in their favour. 8 was always going to be a steep climb for MS, but I don't reckon they ever thought it was going to be this bad. It's all about damage limitation now. Roll out the press releases with lots of big stories about huge sales, lots of partners working on 'exciting' new things, how the app store is growing faster then competitors etc. Classic MS diversion tactics.

At the end of the day though, it's how this O/S is perceived by the public, and at the moment it isn't good. It's very difficult to come back from something like this (they couldn't do it with Vista), so 8.1 might just be something to try and smooth out the bumps until 9 is released, when they may get things right!
post #577 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

When installing programs, tons of freeware now has multiple "gotcha" crap to "deselect" already (e.g. Ask.com, bing, and Google toolbars)

One trick that I've discovered is that you can unzip the freeware.exe file and you'll get the program exe file without the addon crap. Most of that stuff is added by the download site and they just package up the program's installer inside of their crapware installer.

This comes in handy with Shark007 and lets you just install the program and not deal with declining the toolbars.
post #578 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

One trick that I've discovered is that you can unzip the freeware.exe file and you'll get the program exe file without the addon crap. Most of that stuff is added by the download site and they just package up the program's installer inside of their crapware installer.

This comes in handy with Shark007 and lets you just install the program and not deal with declining the toolbars.

Really? I'll have to check that out

So basically, major geeks packages the ask toolbar in with Shark's Codecs in exchange for hosting them?
post #579 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Really? I'll have to check that out

So basically, major geeks packages the ask toolbar in with Shark's Codecs in exchange for hosting them?

Exactly. Same goes for most of the other hosting sites.

When you extract the .exe file you'll see another .exe file for the program and some other autorun types of files that you can ignore.
post #580 of 622
What are you using to extract an exe file? 7-Zip?
post #581 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I disagree and run 7 with the same level of UAC as Vista...
I do too. It's been a long time, but as I recall I couldn't do ANYTHING without a UAC popup in Vista. I couldn't even change my wallpaper without a UAC popup. This doesn't happen in Win 7, even with the same settings. I get the standard UAC popup for installs and first time runs, which is fine with me. But in Vista it was downright debilitating. I get the same feeling of powerlessness and frustration every time I try to do something in Win 8. It's not UAC per se, but all the extra hoops I have to jump through accomplish anything at all. Things that used to take one or two clicks in Win 7 now require charms and searching and hotkeys. It's very frustrating. Unfortunately, I don't foresee any of this changing in the next version. I expect them to add even more layers of crap to make it look like Win 7 but still act like Win 8. That may improve their PR, but will change nothing as far as how inefficient the UI is. I really hope I'm wrong, because I really would like a better OS than Win 7.
post #582 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

What are you using to extract an exe file? 7-Zip?
After it was mentioned I tried it using 7zip, works fine. Pretty easy if you allowed 7zip to install it's "context" addon. Just right click the exe, 7zip -> Open Archive
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

Exactly. Same goes for most of the other hosting sites.

When you extract the .exe file you'll see another .exe file for the program and some other autorun types of files that you can ignore.
I've been wondering for a while why Java bundles the Ask toolbar, you'd think (according to their marketing schpeel during setup of how many devices run on Java) they'd afford to host the stuff w/o bloat
post #583 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

What are you using to extract an exe file? 7-Zip?
After it was mentioned I tried it using 7zip, works fine. Pretty easy if you allowed 7zip to install it's "context" addon. Just right click the exe, 7zip -> Open Archive
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

Exactly. Same goes for most of the other hosting sites.

When you extract the .exe file you'll see another .exe file for the program and some other autorun types of files that you can ignore.
I've been wondering for a while why Java bundles the Ask toolbar, you'd think (according to their marketing schpeel during setup of how many devices run on Java) they'd afford to host the stuff w/o bloat

Perfect. Next time I will be extracting with 7-Zip first.

I have often wondered the same thing about Java..
post #584 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Perfect. Next time I will be extracting with 7-Zip first.

I have often wondered the same thing about Java..

I use 7-zip too.
post #585 of 622
What is the difference between 8 and 8.1 ? Which one do I want ?
post #586 of 622
I have 8.1 on five systems in my house. It doesn't matter which one you start with, but there is no reason to stick with 8 since 8.1 is a free upgrade. I've been leaving off the start button programs lately (startisback) and just using the start screen or other shortcuts. Win+X is a good shortcut as well as just hitting the Win key (or Start button in 8.1) and just typing a few letters of the program. Also, with 8.1 you can boot directly to the desktop without needing a 3rd party program or hack.

I've also got Server 2012 R2 Essentials which I guess is the parallel to 8.1 in the server world. Getting sort of spoiled using Group Policy Management on the computers and users in the house all connected through a domain. It's nice logging into any PC and have all my drives mapped for me and a central location to push all the WIndows Updates to connected PCs.
post #587 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

I have 8.1 on five systems in my house. It doesn't matter which one you start with, but there is no reason to stick with 8 since 8.1 is a free upgrade. I've been leaving off the start button programs lately (startisback) and just using the start screen or other shortcuts. Win+X is a good shortcut as well as just hitting the Win key (or Start button in 8.1) and just typing a few letters of the program. Also, with 8.1 you can boot directly to the desktop without needing a 3rd party program or hack.

I rarely chime in to share my opinion, but the above words could have easily have been my own.
and to add my own words, change is inevitable and resistance is futile. Windows 8.1 is the better OS.
post #588 of 622
I bought a copy of Win 8 Pro the day it was released for $40 from Staples. I have since upgraded it to 8.1. In the many months I've had it installed on a secondary PC, I've probably used it only a handful of hours. I don't know if it's a better OS or not, but I only hope that it is. IMHO, Microsoft screwed the pooch by making Win 8 totally unfamiliar to previous Windows users. It's about as unintuitive as any OS I've ever used. I'd like to get familiar with it but so far I just haven't found the time or had the inclination to do so. I'm perfectly content with Win 7. I still have XP on my office PC, but I'm told that a new Win 7 PC will be coming my way soon. I'm not against making improvements, but any new Windows OS should be somewhat familar to current users instead of completely foreign. Making such radical changes in the UI was extreme and completely unnecessary.
post #589 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark007 View Post

I rarely chime in to share my opinion, but the above words could have easily have been my own.
and to add my own words, change is inevitable and resistance is futile. Windows 8.1 is the better OS.

If you're willing to ignore the abomination that is Metro on a PC, sure.
post #590 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

If you're willing to ignore the abomination that is Metro on a PC, sure.
Metro is basically optional at this point. There are plenty of free or cheap Start Screen replacements.
However, I disagree with the notion that it is "an abomination".

The way the Start Screen works in Windows 8.1 has now replaced any need for me to use a Start Menu app. (previously I used Start8)
I think what made the biggest difference was being able to use much smaller icons now.

And I like having the option to run tablet apps. There are only one or two that I use, but it's better than not being able to access them at all, or requiring me to own a tablet to access them.
post #591 of 622
I'd like to thank Mfusick for stirring this hornet's nest again in not one, not two, but three threads. There has been so much posted and written about this, why continue to rehash it over and over and over? The same folks who hated Win 8 when it was released still hate it, and the same folks who loved it still love it, all for the same, very valid, reasons. The only way to know which camp you will fall into is to try it yourself.
post #592 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

I'd like to thank Mfusick for stirring this hornet's nest again in not one, not two, but three threads. There has been so much posted and written about this, why continue to rehash it over and over and over? The same folks who hated Win 8 when it was released still hate it, and the same folks who loved it still love it, all for the same, very valid, reasons. The only way to know which camp you will fall into is to try it yourself.

I want to see the thread of WHS 2011 to Windows Server Essentials 2012 (R2). Not only do you get Metro, but you get to learn domain management for home use.
post #593 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

I want to see the thread of WHS 2011 to Windows Server Essentials 2012 (R2). Not only do you get Metro, but you get to learn domain management for home use.

I'm curious about the new server. What's the price on those? Still expensive?
post #594 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

The same folks who hated Win 8 when it was released still hate it, and the same folks who loved it still love it, all for the same, very valid, reasons. The only way to know which camp you will fall into is to try it yourself.

Excellently concise biggrin.gif Very well put
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark007 View Post

I rarely chime in to share my opinion, but the above words could have easily have been my own.
and to add my own words, change is inevitable and resistance is futile. Windows 8.1 is the better OS.

I always stay at or ahead of the curve on software. It's a sickness, and I can't leave stuff alone. However, resistance is futile smile.gif Also very well put
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

What is the difference between 8 and 8.1 ? Which one do I want ?

In response, I'd say 8.1 since it allows you to boot straight to desktop. You can add MBT or whatever you'd like to your startup folder and for HTPC usage, you'll never need to know 8.1 is under the hood. I'd get one of the low priced 8 pro upgrades and install it over an unactivated W7 install. That way if you ever want to add WMC it's only $10 extra. 8->8.1 is free
post #595 of 622
This may have been mentioned but the only reason I can see to stay on 7 vs 8 is the media center extender issue. With 8, the only extenders that will work with WMC is the xbox 360.

I use 8.1 and like it fine but would like to have a cheap extender option. Would love to see roku team up with MS and do this. (dream mode off)
post #596 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Excellently concise biggrin.gif Very well put
I always stay at or ahead of the curve on software. It's a sickness, and I can't leave stuff alone. However, resistance is futile smile.gif Also very well put
In response, I'd say 8.1 since it allows you to boot straight to desktop. You can add MBT or whatever you'd like to your startup folder and for HTPC usage, you'll never need to know 8.1 is under the hood. I'd get one of the low priced 8 pro upgrades and install it over an unactivated W7 install. That way if you ever want to add WMC it's only $10 extra. 8->8.1 is free

Thanks for the info.

I am considering this for my workstation desktop, I would use it for lots of stuff. Not as HTPC.
post #597 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

I want to see the thread of WHS 2011 to Windows Server Essentials 2012 (R2). Not only do you get Metro, but you get to learn domain management for home use.

Honestly, between the domain management and some DNS stuff that it does, I personally find it to be a HUGE pain for home use that isn't worth the effort (though of course that might vary for others). It's not that I don't know how to do this stuff, it's just that it's far simpler to set clients up to not use the domain. Yes, I miss out on some neat features like Group Policy (but I have no need to do centralized management) and Folder Redirection, but it's just not worth it to me.

With this tutorial, you can make the clients behave exactly like WHSv1 and WHS2011 and that's what I chose to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackDiesel14 View Post

I'm curious about the new server. What's the price on those? Still expensive?

If you have access to the basic Dreamspark subscription, then you can get a free license to Server 2012r2. A new feature in r2 is that you can add the "Essentials" role after the initial install, meaning that it adds all the features of 2012r2 Essentials.
post #598 of 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I am considering this for my workstation desktop, I would use it for lots of stuff. Not as HTPC.

It seems worthwhile (to me) for you to go ahead with the latest in that case. Your experience (pleasing or displeasing) will depend on how much you relied on the start menu and how quickly you can adapt to a few other tweaks like location of control panel and shutdown. When installed fresh to a GPT partitioned SSD on a system with supported graphics (like intel, but not my GTX 660 for some reason) you can have cold boots under 8 seconds. That's another big reason for a machine that you boot/reboot often

If you rely heavily on the start menu as it existed pre W8, you probably won't care for W8 without startisback. I've relied on the taskbar instead of the start menu heavily since W7, so it was not an intrusive departure for my personal use
post #599 of 622
Former Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, XP user. Current Windows 7 user. Love it! Bought MS Technet subscription so I could install 7 reasonably on all my computers. Trusted MS and got in early on a Windows 8 pre-order for something like $30. Loved the idea that they wanted everyone to upgrade to 8 and they were willing to price it competitively.

Installed it on HTPC and uninstalled after 2 days. Silly interplay between the desktop and the Windows 8 desktop (whatever they've finally decided to call it). Left a bad taste in my mouth. Will probably skip it like Vista and wait for next version. Windows 7 is still awesome.

(No, not all giddy for 8.1 or 8.11.)
post #600 of 622
the w8 is because, the desktop is a dieing breed, and as the tablet gets even better it'll overtake the laptop, much like the laptop took over the desktop..
Desktop users should upgrade to a touch screen. as that's what it's made for.. people use there smart phones and app's. and want the same format in the p/c . I haven't added it to my computers yet. but I love my wife's smartphone.. Remember, kids are walking around at the ages of 8 with a cell phone and are raised with learning how to use that layout.. MICROSOFT was smart to go this route, as the people that be coming into the market will be 10-12 years of "app style" os from phones . I'm sure if I had not bought an android phone 18 months ago I'd totally dislike the new layout.. we'll see how much I like it on a laptop without touch screen.. w8 also forced pc makers to upgrade the crap they where selling..
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