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Are amplifiers worth it

post #1 of 429
Thread Starter 
I have a Denon 1611 receiver and wanted to know if I would benefit from having a 5 channel amplifier like Emotiva UPA 500? I am new to amps but I hear I need to connect it to my receiver.
What is the advantage of having an amp?
Will I be able to notice a difference in sound?
Are amps used mainly to listen at loud levels?

My current receiver cannot be connected to an amp, so is it best for me to upgrade to a high end receiver that has more power and do without the amp or should I upgrade to a receiver that an amp can be connected to and get the amp?
post #2 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I have a Denon 1611 receiver and wanted to know if I would benefit from having a 5 channel amplifier like Emotiva UPA 500? I am new to amps but I hear I need to connect it to my receiver.
What is the advantage of having an amp?
Will I be able to notice a difference in sound?
Are amps used mainly to listen at loud levels?
My current receiver cannot be connected to an amp, so is it best for me to upgrade to a high end receiver that has more power and do without the amp or should I upgrade to a receiver that an amp can be connected to and get the amp?

Do you really feel you need more power? Do you listen (watch a whole film) at 0 dB reference Master Volume setting? How big is your room? What is the sensitivity of each of your current speakers? So many questions come up before decision can be made on external amps...smile.gif
post #3 of 429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Do you really feel you need more power? Do you listen (watch a whole film) at 0 dB reference Master Volume setting? How big is your room? What is the sensitivity of each of your current speakers? So many questions come up before decision can be made on external amps...smile.gif

I do not listen at reference level.
room is 4500 cf.
sensitivity of speaker is 92db.
post #4 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I do not listen at reference level.
room is 4500 cf.
sensitivity of speaker is 92db.

Then I think we saved you a little money worth to be spent elsewhere. cool.giftongue.gifwink.gif
post #5 of 429
That UPA-500 does 80 wpc only. Not much of an upgrade from the Denon unless your speakers are 4 ohm. You do have a big room, however. You are right in assuming you'd need a receiver with pre outs, and then an XPA-5, if your speakers can swing that.
Edited by runnin' - 10/31/12 at 12:40pm
post #6 of 429
You do have a large room and when watching movie(BD/DVD) peaks can be 10-12 db higher which require 12 to 16x more power. Most people don't notice the momentary clipping of their avr and most of it is not audible except for decreased intensity of the peaks. Amps are nice since you can never have to much power and they last forever, which can't be said about today's avr's. I have Klipsch RF 7's and use an amp with my avr. It all comes down to the signature look you want for your system. Your avr will not deliver 75 watts into 5 channels and 35 watts is a more realistic number. More speakers have been killed by to little power compared to more power.
post #7 of 429
I missed that the Denon has discrete amp so it power output is higher.

1 watt = 90dB

2 watts = 93dB

4 watts = 96dB

8 watts = 99dB

16 watts = 102dB

32 watts = 105dB

64 watts = 108dB

128 watts = 111dB
This is a quick way to see how much power you may need at 1 meter with no headroom. Other things to consider is current swings, SNR, and dampiing factor in a particular unit.
post #8 of 429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

You do have a large room and when watching movie(BD/DVD) peaks can be 10-12 db higher which require 12 to 16x more power. Most people don't notice the momentary clipping of their avr and most of it is not audible except for decreased intensity of the peaks. Amps are nice since you can never have to much power and they last forever, which can't be said about today's avr's. I have Klipsch RF 7's and use an amp with my avr. It all comes down to the signature look you want for your system. Your avr will not deliver 75 watts into 5 channels and 35 watts is a more realistic number. More speakers have been killed by to little power compared to more power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

You do have a large room and when watching movie(BD/DVD) peaks can be 10-12 db higher which require 12 to 16x more power. Most people don't notice the momentary clipping of their avr and most of it is not audible except for decreased intensity of the peaks. Amps are nice since you can never have to much power and they last forever, which can't be said about today's avr's. I have Klipsch RF 7's and use an amp with my avr. It all comes down to the signature look you want for your system. Your avr will not deliver 75 watts into 5 channels and 35 watts is a more realistic number. More speakers have been killed by to little power compared to more power.

I normally don't listen at reference levels. How are speakers killed more with little power? Does that happen like in my case were I listen at moderate level?
post #9 of 429
probably something to do with the voice coil relationship to the magnet.
sometimes the speaker cone doesnt output the same quality once the voice coil starts to move back and forth more.

it has everything to do with the electricity coming from the magnet, and the voice coil not being engineered for no movement in and out.
the same can be said about a voice coil moving too much.. the electricity from the magnet doesnt line up with the complexity in the voice coil, and the sweet spot in the voice coil is neglected because it keeps missing the twinkle from the magnet as the voice coil goes back and forth.
post #10 of 429
Thread Starter 
I was told that my Denon on paper does 75 watts per channel and that in reality I most likely get 35 watts per channel instead. Is there a receiver out there that performs according to the specs? I ask because if all the receivers on the market do not put out what the specs say then maybe an amp would make up for the loss.
post #11 of 429
Yes, that's the primary reason to get separate amps, another is handling of low impedance loads, such as 4 ohms and below.
post #12 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I was told that my Denon on paper does 75 watts per channel and that in reality I most likely get 35 watts per channel instead. Is there a receiver out there that performs according to the specs? I ask because if all the receivers on the market do not put out what the specs say then maybe an amp would make up for the loss.

FIrst, while many receivers cannot put out full specified power into 5 or 7 channels at once, the first question to ask is do they ever need to with real material (versus test tones)? The answer, AFAIK, is no. Movies are not mixed with max output in all channels all at once. If a channel is only 3 dB below max (that's 'one notch" quieter to most folks) it only needs half the power that would be needed for the max. ALso, if you use a subwoofer and bass management, you are sending the most power-hungry portions of the signal to the sub, and they don't impose on the receiver's amps. And any channel requiring full power can still deliver it if the other channels' requirements are significantly lower.

TO answer the other question, IMO you really have to see independent testing to know how the receiver performs witl all channels driven or at less than 8 ohm loads. From chciking out such reviews in the past, my general sense has been that as you go up the ladder with mass market receivers (I'm thinking Denon and Onkyo in particular) you see better multichannel performance.
post #13 of 429
The other side of the equation is the speakers. Asere would you mind telling what speaker models you have? Speakers vary greatly in efficiency and impedance which in itself would suggest the necessity of an amp. That with the 4500 cubic feet of a room, which begs the question, do you have the speakers set up in one end of the room only or in the entire length of it?
post #14 of 429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

The other side of the equation is the speakers. Asere would you mind telling what speaker models you have? Speakers vary greatly in efficiency and impedance which in itself would suggest the necessity of an amp. That with the 4500 cubic feet of a room, which begs the question, do you have the speakers set up in one end of the room only or in the entire length of it?

Here are the speaker specs for C605 for Left, Right and Surrounds

Description 6½" Two-Way
Ceiling Speakers
Unit of Measure Pair
Woofers 6½" Polypropylene
Tweeters Fixed ¾" Soft Dome
Power Handling 75 Watts
Frequency Response 45Hz-20kHz
Sensitivity 90dB 1W/
Impedance 8 Ω
Dimensions Diameter 9¼" x Depth 35⁄8"
Cut Out Dimesions Diameter 8¼"
Warranty 10-Year Limited


Here are the specs for Center C660
6 1/2 inch
125 WATTS
Frequency Response 35 hz-22khz
Sensitivity 92db
Impedance 8 ohms
post #15 of 429
I take it this is the Proficient brand? With the ceiling speaker approach, I wouldn't bother with big upgrades. The UPA-500 may give you somewhat of an improvement, you could try it on their 30 trial.
post #16 of 429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

I take it this is the Proficient brand? With the ceiling speaker approach, I wouldn't bother with big upgrades. The UPA-500 may give you somewhat of an improvement, you could try it on their 30 trial.

The speakers are on one part of the room
Edited by asere - 11/1/12 at 11:11am
post #17 of 429
there is always the question of whether the speaker perfoms better with voltage or amperage .. or a mixture of the two.
volts stack up to amount to amperage .. but that doesnt mean an amplifier couldnt ever run on voltage.
its like saying 5 volts amounts to 1 amp .. and if you've got 15 volts with no amperage, you could see that really there is 3 amps on the line.
but sometimes it is setup like a spring.
you cant see through the spring when it is extended (volts) .. but when you compress the spring, the coils get closer and closer together and you can see them (amps).

so when you connect the 15 volts with no amps.. those volts will collapse down to 5 volts .. but then the speaker is really running with 5 volts and 2 amps (again totalling the same 15volts)


those arent the exact numbers for volts and amps.. but the math equation does exist somewhere, and the 'rule' is held together by some type of organization .. whether it be UL listed or FTC or something like that.
the 'rule' gets created to help everything produced stay in an organized fashion.
its really good information too.. because if the world ever came under attack, then there would be people trained to use those rules and get things working again.
without the organization, things would get broken while testing each piece of hardware to determine what it is and what is needed to fix it.
it also means lots of spare parts cant be used and they sit there going to waste.

but that is what i said about some of the amplifiers using more amperage in the signal.
it is just a matter of how the volts and amperage is pushed out.
and if you went by the specifics i said above, then you would see that some amplifiers would show a whole bunch more volts on a multimeter with next to nothing resistance.
it's just a matter of those volts collapsing down to amperage .. and which one of the two has more 'twinkle' .. because sometimes the voltage is cleaner than the amperage .. and sometimes the amperage is more cleaner than the voltage.

and sometimes the speaker needs clean voltage to work its best .. and the amplifier is feeding it clean amperage instead.
...that leaves room for yes, sometimes the speaker needs clean amperage and the amplifier is feeding it clean voltage instead.

dont get too overworked about it because it boils down to those two instances as the starting point.
if things start to fall anywhere inbetween, you are probably a person making your own custom amplifier to work with a specific pair of speakers to get the most clarity from those speakers and you will get it right eventually with some trial and error.

if these forums were used more efficiently..
people could try some of the seperate amplifiers, and share their experience.
like.. my speakers did this with ____ amplifier.
and my speakers did this with ____ amplifier.
and my speakers did this with _____ amplifier.
then the person reading that goes out there and tries one of the three amps.. makes a note about what it did to their speakers, and runs out there to get a different amplifier based on what was said above.

that means if the one amplifier did something to the speakers for the first person, and it did the opposite for the other person.. then the other person would look at the first person's reviews and say 'okay.. what was even worse for their speakers because it will probably be perfect for my speakers'

and that is what is going to get those amplifiers sold and placed in the right homes where they will do the most good.
but we can probably blame the reviewers for not allowing this to happen because they use different speakers for the reviews and there isnt enough of a grip or stability to make algebraic sense out of any of it.
post #18 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I was told that my Denon on paper does 75 watts per channel and that in reality I most likely get 35 watts per channel instead. Is there a receiver out there that performs according to the specs? I ask because if all the receivers on the market do not put out what the specs say then maybe an amp would make up for the loss.

Hello,
Unfortunately your Denon does not have Preamp Outputs for adding an amplifier. Preamp Outputs are only offered at Denon's 3000 Series on up. The size of the room is a major factor when deciding if more power is needed. As is the efficiency and impedance of the speakers being used.
Cheers,
AD
post #19 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

there is always the question of whether the speaker perfoms better with voltage or amperage .. or a mixture of the two.
volts stack up to amount to amperage .. but that doesnt mean an amplifier couldnt ever run on voltage.
its like saying 5 volts amounts to 1 amp .. and if you've got 15 volts with no amperage, you could see that really there is 3 amps on the line.
but sometimes it is setup like a spring.
you cant see through the spring when it is extended (volts) .. but when you compress the spring, the coils get closer and closer together and you can see them (amps).
so when you connect the 15 volts with no amps.. those volts will collapse down to 5 volts .. but then the speaker is really running with 5 volts and 2 amps (again totalling the same 15volts)
those arent the exact numbers for volts and amps.. but the math equation does exist somewhere, and the 'rule' is held together by some type of organization .. whether it be UL listed or FTC or something like that.
the 'rule' gets created to help everything produced stay in an organized fashion.
its really good information too.. because if the world ever came under attack, then there would be people trained to use those rules and get things working again.
without the organization, things would get broken while testing each piece of hardware to determine what it is and what is needed to fix it.
it also means lots of spare parts cant be used and they sit there going to waste.
but that is what i said about some of the amplifiers using more amperage in the signal.
it is just a matter of how the volts and amperage is pushed out.
and if you went by the specifics i said above, then you would see that some amplifiers would show a whole bunch more volts on a multimeter with next to nothing resistance.
it's just a matter of those volts collapsing down to amperage .. and which one of the two has more 'twinkle' .. because sometimes the voltage is cleaner than the amperage .. and sometimes the amperage is more cleaner than the voltage.
and sometimes the speaker needs clean voltage to work its best .. and the amplifier is feeding it clean amperage instead.
...that leaves room for yes, sometimes the speaker needs clean amperage and the amplifier is feeding it clean voltage instead.
dont get too overworked about it because it boils down to those two instances as the starting point.
if things start to fall anywhere inbetween, you are probably a person making your own custom amplifier to work with a specific pair of speakers to get the most clarity from those speakers and you will get it right eventually with some trial and error.
if these forums were used more efficiently..
people could try some of the seperate amplifiers, and share their experience.
like.. my speakers did this with ____ amplifier.
and my speakers did this with ____ amplifier.
and my speakers did this with _____ amplifier.
then the person reading that goes out there and tries one of the three amps.. makes a note about what it did to their speakers, and runs out there to get a different amplifier based on what was said above.
that means if the one amplifier did something to the speakers for the first person, and it did the opposite for the other person.. then the other person would look at the first person's reviews and say 'okay.. what was even worse for their speakers because it will probably be perfect for my speakers'
and that is what is going to get those amplifiers sold and placed in the right homes where they will do the most good.
but we can probably blame the reviewers for not allowing this to happen because they use different speakers for the reviews and there isnt enough of a grip or stability to make algebraic sense out of any of it.

Wow! cool.gif
post #20 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post


volts stack up to amount to amperage .. but that doesnt mean an amplifier couldnt ever run on voltage.
its like saying 5 volts amounts to 1 amp .. and if you've got 15 volts with no amperage, you could see that really there is 3 amps on the line.
but sometimes it is setup like a spring.
you cant see through the spring when it is extended (volts) .. but when you compress the spring, the coils get closer and closer together and you can see them (amps).
so when you connect the 15 volts with no amps.. those volts will collapse down to 5 volts .. but then the speaker is really running with 5 volts and 2 amps (again totalling the same 15volts)



those arent the exact numbers for volts and amps.. but the math equation does exist somewhere, and the 'rule' is held together by some type of organization .. whether it be UL listed or FTC or something like that.



it's just a matter of those volts collapsing down to amperage .. and which one of the two has more 'twinkle' .. because sometimes the voltage is cleaner than the amperage .. and sometimes the amperage is more cleaner than the voltage.

and sometimes the speaker needs clean voltage to work its best .. and the amplifier is feeding it clean amperage instead.
...that leaves room for yes, sometimes the speaker needs clean amperage and the amplifier is feeding it clean voltage instead.
dont get too overworked about it because it boils down to those two instances as the starting point.

Wow is right, .....there's certainly some real whoppers up in there!

I'm not sure if this guy is smarter than everyone around here, or has no idea what the heck he's talking about..... eek.gif I am leaning one direction though ...
post #21 of 429
Perhaps it is the grade of what is being smoked . . .
post #22 of 429
well 'twinkle' isnt always the same as 'extra details'

as i said earlier in a post on this forum board..
if some of the taps from the sample rate is missing, then there is slew missing.

an amplifier can be low distortion with missing taps.
and sometimes the amplifier has higher distortion, but more taps present .. and people absolutely love them more than the other ones.
they often stick together talking about 'warm' or 'tube' or 'analog' type sound.

the same can be said about headphone listeners.
there is a lot of distortion in some headphones, but they simply dont care to represent their $300 - $500 headphones because there is more taps from the sample rate present.
post #23 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I have a Denon 1611 receiver and wanted to know if I would benefit from having a 5 channel amplifier like Emotiva UPA 500? I am new to amps but I hear I need to connect it to my receiver.
What is the advantage of having an amp?
Will I be able to notice a difference in sound?
Are amps used mainly to listen at loud levels?
My current receiver cannot be connected to an amp, so is it best for me to upgrade to a high end receiver that has more power and do without the amp or should I upgrade to a receiver that an amp can be connected to and get the amp?
After reading all these replies, most ridiculous, I had to return to refresh my memory on the original topic.

The benefit you would receive is a more clear, more pronounced soundstage than the 1611 is able to create. Yes, IF you are interested in better high end sound (the 1611 doesn't even come close even if it is a Denon) then absolutely start upgrading. But be warned, running seperates is a VERY slippery slope. Once the upgrades begin, the only way to stop is if you can't afford the equipment you want/desire. .with EITHE
And while it is true that an amp will indeed produce ALOT of sound at high levels, high levels are NOT REQUIRED to hear the superiority of an amp over the 1611. You will IMMEDIATELY notice an improvement in SQ. HOWEVER (you were waiting for the other shoe to drop, huh? LOL) as I previously stated, this is a slippery slope. Those Jamo speakers you have are fantastic for the 1611, not so much for Emotiva. So before long (a few hours of listening maybe?) you will want (and need actually) a better performing speaker which costs...and so on, and so on, and so on with the rest of the equipment including the video source! Crazy I know, but if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times...this is a VERY slippery slope.

Now, if you even care, MY SUGGESTION for you is to indeed revamp the system. Look for last years models on everything as those you will likely find the absolute best (and affordable) pricing. Get a Denon 4311 for about 1200 give or take. Your receiver needs are now over and should you require more power (note: I did NOT say better sound) you can always get a seperate amp and the 4311 is all you need to run it.

Next, speakers...while the Jamos will sing (literally) with the 4311, you will quickly enough desire better speakers. Again, look online for sales on closeout models as that is the best bet. Look at spending (at a minimum) of $600+ per. Not set, per individual speaker. You will not be able to fully appreciate the SQ of the 4311 w/Audyssey without a speaker upgrade.

So there you have it, in a nutshell, the answer to your question. I hope in laymans terms and understandable.wink.gif
post #24 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

Perhaps it is the grade of what is being smoked . . .
Why? Do you have something better?cool.gifwink.gif
post #25 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

there is always the question of whether the speaker perfoms better with voltage or amperage .. or a mixture of the two.
volts stack up to amount to amperage .. but that doesnt mean an amplifier couldnt ever run on voltage.
its like saying 5 volts amounts to 1 amp .. and if you've got 15 volts with no amperage, you could see that really there is 3 amps on the line.
but sometimes it is setup like a spring.
you cant see through the spring when it is extended (volts) .. but when you compress the spring, the coils get closer and closer together and you can see them (amps).
so when you connect the 15 volts with no amps.. those volts will collapse down to 5 volts .. but then the speaker is really running with 5 volts and 2 amps (again totalling the same 15volts)
those arent the exact numbers for volts and amps.. but the math equation does exist somewhere, and the 'rule' is held together by some type of organization .. whether it be UL listed or FTC or something like that.
the 'rule' gets created to help everything produced stay in an organized fashion.
its really good information too.. because if the world ever came under attack, then there would be people trained to use those rules and get things working again.
without the organization, things would get broken while testing each piece of hardware to determine what it is and what is needed to fix it.
it also means lots of spare parts cant be used and they sit there going to waste.
but that is what i said about some of the amplifiers using more amperage in the signal.
it is just a matter of how the volts and amperage is pushed out.
and if you went by the specifics i said above, then you would see that some amplifiers would show a whole bunch more volts on a multimeter with next to nothing resistance.
it's just a matter of those volts collapsing down to amperage .. and which one of the two has more 'twinkle' .. because sometimes the voltage is cleaner than the amperage .. and sometimes the amperage is more cleaner than the voltage.
and sometimes the speaker needs clean voltage to work its best .. and the amplifier is feeding it clean amperage instead.
...that leaves room for yes, sometimes the speaker needs clean amperage and the amplifier is feeding it clean voltage instead.
dont get too overworked about it because it boils down to those two instances as the starting point.
if things start to fall anywhere inbetween, you are probably a person making your own custom amplifier to work with a specific pair of speakers to get the most clarity from those speakers and you will get it right eventually with some trial and error.
if these forums were used more efficiently..
people could try some of the seperate amplifiers, and share their experience.
like.. my speakers did this with ____ amplifier.
and my speakers did this with ____ amplifier.
and my speakers did this with _____ amplifier.
then the person reading that goes out there and tries one of the three amps.. makes a note about what it did to their speakers, and runs out there to get a different amplifier based on what was said above.
that means if the one amplifier did something to the speakers for the first person, and it did the opposite for the other person.. then the other person would look at the first person's reviews and say 'okay.. what was even worse for their speakers because it will probably be perfect for my speakers'
and that is what is going to get those amplifiers sold and placed in the right homes where they will do the most good.
but we can probably blame the reviewers for not allowing this to happen because they use different speakers for the reviews and there isnt enough of a grip or stability to make algebraic sense out of any of it.

If a person were to, say, google Ohm's law, all the mathematical relationships among volts amps ohms and even power, i.e. watts (if a feller can multiply) are laid bare thereby. It's not an FTC rule, but a physics reality that ya just cannot get around. at zero amps and infinite voltage nothing wuld happen because there has to be amps to go with the voltage. IT"S THE LAW. Ohm's law. In my day this was 9th grade stuff , , , ,
post #26 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

If a person were to, say, google Ohm's law, all the mathematical relationships among volts amps ohms and even power, i.e. watts (if a feller can multiply) are laid bare thereby. It's not an FTC rule, but a physics reality that ya just cannot get around. at zero amps and infinite voltage nothing wuld happen because there has to be amps to go with the voltage. IT"S THE LAW. Ohm's law. In my day this was 9th grade stuff , , , ,

let one not forget that those laws were created by humans, no different than the definition of a decibel.
i leave room for suprise .
post #27 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

let one not forget that those laws were created by humans, no different than the definition of a decibel.
i leave room for suprise .

The definition of, say, an inch, is human created, like the definition of a decibel.

Ohm's law was discovered by Mr. Ohm. The physical reality it describes exists without human intervention. Like magnetism exists without human intervention, or gravity, or, say newtonian physics (equal and opposite reaction and whatnot).

When you play pool and miss a shot, do you say "ah, the rules of Newtonian physics must have changed for a second there."

It would be okay to analyze things rationally starting from a basic understanding of the controlling principles. It's unlikely that quantum effects the are observable at the subatomic level will significantly change the way Ohm's law works tomorrow, or in somebody else's living room.
Edited by JHAz - 11/1/12 at 6:21pm
post #28 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

The other side of the equation is the speakers. Asere would you mind telling what speaker models you have? Speakers vary greatly in efficiency and impedance which in itself would suggest the necessity of an amp. That with the 4500 cubic feet of a room, which begs the question, do you have the speakers set up in one end of the room only or in the entire length of it?

Here are the speaker specs for C605 for Left, Right and Surrounds

Description 6½" Two-Way
Ceiling Speakers
Unit of Measure Pair
Woofers 6½" Polypropylene
Tweeters Fixed ¾" Soft Dome
Power Handling 75 Watts
Frequency Response 45Hz-20kHz
Sensitivity 90dB 1W/
Impedance 8 Ω
Dimensions Diameter 9¼" x Depth 35⁄8"
Cut Out Dimesions Diameter 8¼"
Warranty 10-Year Limited


Here are the specs for Center C660
6 1/2 inch
125 WATTS
Frequency Response 35 hz-22khz
Sensitivity 92db
Impedance 8 ohms

those specs pretty much tell us you don't need an amp... wink.gif you already have as much power as they will handle on tap, at least in any "real world" scenario...
post #29 of 429
@jhaz & foh...

if you think those digressions are, ummm, interesting, check this out... wink.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433269/digital-room-correction-done-less-than-lazy

not to mention some of his other unique thoughts in other threads...
post #30 of 429
I just think it's not worth adding a lot of upgrades when you have ceiling speakers.
Edited by runnin' - 11/2/12 at 5:48am
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