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Are amplifiers worth it - Page 9

post #241 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Well that is a test which is stacked against letting the truth go where it may.
A listener not only has to discern differences between two amps, but consistantly pick out the one among several? What if 2 of the 6 sound the same and that skews the result? What if the six all sound the same, but another brand would not? You worship at the altar of science. Science once thought that Eugenics was the next step and that the world was flat.
And as to the measurement comment, all amps measure flat, I thought you knew that. It is how they perform with the widely different loads of different models of speakers that matters. Gosh, why is it so upsetting that one amp may sound different than another? Amp manufacturers have wildly different circuitry and techniques, but they all end up sounding exactly the same?

Stop with the strawmen. Get two amps and run a proper DBT.

The lengths people go to support their vision of how they think science should work... Unless you have any evidence that the current level of audio science is incorrect, throwing out a bunch of 400 year old theories is irrelevant to this discussion. Thanks for stating that you don't believe audio science is relevant and that anyone that does "worships at the alter of science", a compliment that I'll accept.

Are we really going back to your theory that measurements don't have the capability to demonstrate that amps sound different? If so, what specifically do you believe can't be measured today.
post #242 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

So you have nothing.

We've done this dance before, so go back and look at the posts from the last go round.

Start with the Richard Clarke challenge. In fact, take it and win his $10k since you're so confident.
post #243 of 429
And then there is the fact that all people's hearing is not the same. Tone deficient people can't hear differences that others can.
post #244 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

We've done this dance before, so go back and look at the posts from the last go round.
Start with the Richard Clarke challenge. In fact, take it and win his $10k since you're so confident.

You really want to use that as your factual data? REALLY?

You should really take a moment to read the Richard Clarke thread. The entire thing.

It supports my position and invalidates yours.

wink.gif
post #245 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

And then there is the fact that all people's hearing is not the same. Tone deficient people can't hear differences that others can.

Some people enjoy believing things that aren't true.

There's not much logic can do about that....
post #246 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

And then there is the fact that all people's hearing is not the same. Tone deficient people can't hear differences that others can.

Individual hearing/Golden Ears is another red herring. The amps output is a constant - it doesn't change based on the recipient of the output.
post #247 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

You really want to use that as your factual data? REALLY?
You should really take a moment to read the Richard Clarke thread. The entire thing.
It supports my position and invalidates yours.
wink.gif

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. Not that I'm surprised.

Regardless, have fun thinking your investment in "high end" amplification is producing audible improvement. I'm checking out of the flat earth society's "audio science" discussion for now.
post #248 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Some people enjoy believing things that aren't true.
There's not much logic can do about that....

Don't I know it!
post #249 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Not sure how you come to that conclusion.

Q: Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?

A: No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world.
post #250 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Q: Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?
A: No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world.
Again:
Quote:
No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.
The conclusion of the Clark tests is that the only real spec the consumer should pay attention to is power. From the same FAQ:
Quote:
Do the results prove inaudibility of amplifier differences below clipping?

It's impossible to scientifically prove the lack of something. You cannot prove that there is no Bigfoot monster, because no matter how hard you look, it is always possible that Bigfoot is in the place you didn't look. Similarly, there could always be a amplifier combination or listener for which the test would show an audible difference. So from a scientific point of view, the word “prove” should not be used in reference to the results of this test.

What the test does do is give a degree of certainty that such an audible difference does not exist.
post #251 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

Again:
The conclusion of the Clark tests is that the only real spec the consumer should pay attention to is power. From the same FAQ:

Yes, if the specifications of the amps are equal

THD, noise, Frequency Response, gain, etc.

That would leave WPC and cost as the determining factors in amplifier selections. This is similar to what Bob Carver came up with; If all specs are the same they will all sound the same.

In the real world, amplifier specs (even HOW they're rated) vary wildly. Hell, even WPC has become a guessing game on some consumer amplifiers.

This is the reason why Clark says himself - ".. is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world" then immediately gives two examples "The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp."
post #252 of 429
Another way of looking at it from the Clark viewpoint:

Amp A (105wpc)
Pushing 5 watts into an 8ohm speaker at .005% THD
Amp B (85wpc)
Pushing 5 watts into an 8ohm speaker at .005% THD

Will sound identical.
post #253 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Another way of looking at it from the Clark viewpoint:
Amp A (105wpc)
Pushing 5 watts into an 8ohm speaker at .005% THD
Amp B (85wpc)
Pushing 5 watts into an 8ohm speaker at .005% THD
Will sound identical.

Now you're talking! This is it. Full stop here.

Noise is not an issue anymore, frequency response is not an issue anymore, THD is not an issue anymore, gain may vary, but who in their right minds would push an amp into clippping and would say, arrgh, no, this amp is no good. wink.gif
post #254 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Now you're talking! This is it. Full stop here.
Noise is not an issue anymore, frequency response is not an issue anymore, THD is not an issue anymore, gain may vary, but who in their right minds would push an amp into clippping and would say, arrgh, no, this amp is no good. wink.gif

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

vs

http://www.hometheater.com/content/parasound-halo-p-7-multichannel-preamplifier-51-multichannel-amplifier-amp-jc-1-single-chan-2

Will these amplifiers sound different?
post #255 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Do all receivers sound the same?

Given that a receiver is not "JUST" an amplifier and includes processing (e.g. surround decoding, room correction, bass management), digital to analog conversion, tuner capabilities, tone controls, equalisation, volume control among many other features, it is not the same thing as comparing amplifiers. Add to the fact that most amps do digital volume correction then you have to add in the possible analog to digital conversion when using analog inputs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

What you said earlier appeared to suggest something else:
Well, whether I am trying to disprove something or prove something, I understand what you mean. I've had this discussion several times on different forums, and it always comes down to this, and that's fine. I am only saying it is possible that amps can sound different, though not in the lab. Speakers brands/models vary so greatly in the load they can present to a given amp. And said amp will vary in sonics because of this. That is what I have experienced. So I will continue down my deluded little road, and I'll be selling my inferior amp soon. Thanks for your responses.

I believe I was pretty clear in what I said, if you perceived it to be different then that's cool also... English is not everyone's first language, and the internet is a difficult place to convey intent.

Being happy with what you have is most important. I just responded to your post as I felt I could possibly add value to the discussion, if not then no big deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Well that is a test which is stacked against letting the truth go where it may.
A listener not only has to discern differences between two amps, but consistantly pick out the one among several? What if 2 of the 6 sound the same and that skews the result? What if the six all sound the same, but another brand would not? You worship at the altar of science. Science once thought that Eugenics was the next step and that the world was flat.
And as to the measurement comment, all amps measure flat, I thought you knew that. It is how they perform with the widely different loads of different models of speakers that matters. Gosh, why is it so upsetting that one amp may sound different than another? Amp manufacturers have wildly different circuitry and techniques, but they all end up sounding exactly the same?

That is why it is fair, if there is a difference that is clearly identifiable, then why should it be so hard to pick it? As for performance at different loads, again, that is a different topic altogether, please do not conveniently ignore that the premise is "that all amps sound the same within a comfortable operating range", so if one amp cannot handle a load, then that is outside of the comparison and would be discounted quite readily e.g. nobody expects the iPhone headphone output to be able to power the same speakers as say a 1000watt monoblock amp.

As for how manufacturers differ in their circuitry and techniques... well the same can be said of car manufacturers differing engine config and drivetrain etc. - but they still can hit 60km/h that is the same across all brands (unless of course you have a car that cannot hit 60km/h). A properly designed amp does not alter the incoming signal other than to "amplify it". If it does more, then you are no longer comparing just an "amplifier" which is not what is being claimed.

As for the Earth being flat... that wasn't science. Science would have forced whoever claimed that to actually prove that the Earth was flat. Science is not perfect, nobody claims that, but it is far far more accurate, reliable and consistent way to go about proving something than anecdotal evidence.
post #256 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I have a Denon 1611 receiver and wanted to know if I would benefit from having a 5 channel amplifier like Emotiva UPA 500? I am new to amps but I hear I need to connect it to my receiver.
What is the advantage of having an amp?
Will I be able to notice a difference in sound?
Are amps used mainly to listen at loud levels?
My current receiver cannot be connected to an amp, so is it best for me to upgrade to a high end receiver that has more power and do without the amp or should I upgrade to a receiver that an amp can be connected to and get the amp?

And so, my dear Asere, after reading all these posts I think that there should be no doubt now in your mind. Run, do not walk, away from the amp store. Do not buy an amp of any description lest you find it's better sounding. This will cause you to be mocked and verbally harrassed whenever you try to relate your experience and it's just not worth it. If it's too late, and you've already committed acts of amp purchase, stay the hell away from any forums lest you let it slip out. Good luck.
post #257 of 429
I'm sure Asere's comprehension is better than that. After reading these 9 pages of discussion he wouldn't think it's a bad idea to buy an amp, just that doing so may not improve sound quality the degree to which some people profess. He would know that an amp may not be needed if his Denon isn't clipping but that if it were he is now armed with information that can help him make an informed, cost-effective and evidence-based decision when making the purchase. Because heaven forbid anyone suggest claims of superior performance should be supported by objective data.
Edited by repete66211 - 11/13/12 at 9:53am
post #258 of 429
Do we have general agreement that a hi end 7 channel amp (paired with a pre/pro) will have very similar sound quality as a 7 channel HT receiver (assuming same very hi-res speakers such as Focal Viva Utopia or other uber-hi end multi channel speaker system). I mean that's almost what this is coming down to- that separates really don't matter. If all amps are the same, then all DACs must be pretty close or perhaps even the exact same. It is just 1s and zereos right? And all pre-amps must have the same sonics too. Why on earth would someone spend $4,500 on a pre/pro (pre amp/DAC) and then another $4,000 on a 7 channel amp!!?? Show offs.
post #259 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

I'm sure Asere's comprehension is better than that. After reading these 9 pages of discussion he wouldn't think it's a bad idea to buy an amp, just that doing so may not improve sound quality the degree to which some people profess. He would know that an amp may not be needed if his Denon isn't clipping but that if it were he is now armed with information that can help him make an informed, cost-effective and evidence-based decision when making the purchase. Because heaven forbid anyone suggest claims of superior performance should be supported by objective data.

After reading these 9 pages of discussion? Dude, I'm sure Asere bailed by now. Good work.biggrin.gif
post #260 of 429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

After reading these 9 pages of discussion? Dude, I'm sure Asere bailed by now. Good work.biggrin.gif

No I haven't left.biggrin.gif I wanna thank everyone for their input whether it is negative or positive to some, for me it is a learning experience.
Edited by asere - 11/14/12 at 1:22pm
post #261 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

No I haven't left.biggrin.gif I wanna thank everyone for their input weather it is negative or positive to some, for me it is a learning experience.

No, no, asere, ...you can't just get away from your own thread so easily! smile.gif I think I can speak in the many of many posters here when I say we are curious like cat to know what you learned and especially what you decide: buy a separate amp or not! Lookin' forward. smile.gif

BTW, the weather around here is positive. Couldn't resist! Just kidding! wink.gif
post #262 of 429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

No, no, asere, ...you can't just get away from your own thread so easily! smile.gif I think I can speak in the many of many posters here when I say we are curious like cat to know what you learned and especially what you decide: buy a separate amp or not! Lookin' forward. smile.gif
BTW, the weather around here is positive. Couldn't resist! Just kidding! wink.gif

I don't think I will get the amp because after much thought I don't listen at reference level.
post #263 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I don't think I will get the amp because after much thought I don't listen at reference level.

Sounds like a good rationale. You can always add an amp if you want to have a new toy to play with after you address the more meaningful elements of your system.
post #264 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

BTW, the weather around here is positive. Couldn't resist! Just kidding! wink.gif

I was wondering whether or not someone would point that out . . .
post #265 of 429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

I was wondering whether or not someone would point that out . . .

Ok weather has been edited biggrin.gif
post #266 of 429
I have a Denon 4311. Just for grins I ran my mains through a Crown XLS402. There was no discernable difference to my ears. FWIW, I think I have have a pretty good ear. I can sing in tune, listen to a track and pick off the the parts, and play them back on guitar.

I subscribe to the speakers and room treatments make the difference camp. I think separates are cool; just not sure they are needed or warranted for a small room.

Willie
post #267 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Do we have general agreement that a hi end 7 channel amp (paired with a pre/pro) will have very similar sound quality as a 7 channel HT receiver (assuming same very hi-res speakers such as Focal Viva Utopia or other uber-hi end multi channel speaker system). I mean that's almost what this is coming down to- that separates really don't matter. If all amps are the same, then all DACs must be pretty close or perhaps even the exact same. It is just 1s and zereos right? And all pre-amps must have the same sonics too. Why on earth would someone spend $4,500 on a pre/pro (pre amp/DAC) and then another $4,000 on a 7 channel amp!!?? Show offs.

Why are you bringing DAC's into the discussion? Do you know what an Amplifier's job is? Are you confusing yourself with this discussion? In your example above, take the pre/pro from your pre/pro + amp setup and switch between the power amplifier and the receiver as an amplifier, level match between the two and then run a double blind test that does not push one or the other outside of their comfort zone. Then see if you can reliably identify which is which - that is the premise of the argument. Nothing more nothing less. Stop adding extra variables that were never there in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Q: Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?
A: No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world.

You seriously need to stop misquoting the above. It does not support your theory whatsoever no matter how much you wish it to. Gain changes = volume changes which disqualifies the comparison. Crossovers, filters and the rest are not the job of the amplifier - do you at least agree with that? It belongs with the processing that goes on before it becomes amplified and in comparing the amplifiers, you need to ensure those variables are all constant, otherwise you are not making a strict 1:1 comparison.
post #268 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdkhang View Post


You seriously need to stop misquoting the above. It does not support your theory whatsoever no matter how much you wish it to. Gain changes = volume changes which disqualifies the comparison. Crossovers, filters and the rest are not the job of the amplifier - do you at least agree with that? It belongs with the processing that goes on before it becomes amplified and in comparing the amplifiers, you need to ensure those variables are all constant, otherwise you are not making a strict 1:1 comparison.

I'm sorry if you disagree with the quote. Not my problem.

rolleyes.gif
post #269 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

I'm sorry if you disagree with the quote. Not my problem.
rolleyes.gif

I'm sorry you lack the intelligence to understand the original premise and how what you quote does not disprove it.

The original premise is that two amps that are both within their comfort zone will sound the same. Putting one at a different gain, applying filters or different crossovers is not part of that premise. It is like saying that a Toyota Corolla at 80km/h is faster than a Ferrari 458 Italia travelling at 60km/h therefore the Corolla is the faster car.

Instead of quoting things out of context, just be honest.
post #270 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

We've done this dance before, so go back and look at the posts from the last go round.
Start with the Richard Clarke challenge. In fact, take it and win his $10k since you're so confident.

men want their foot in the door, example above .
the words missing are the descriptions of textures used to carve and mold the clay of imagination.
light on that regard earns weight comparison to that of a snowflake.
we are quite in the season for some to get crystaled.
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