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New Ruling Confirms Copying DVDs is Illegal - Page 11

post #301 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

BS, the law can easily distinguish between ripping a copy to put on your own non-shared HD and ripping stuff to put up on a shared server!

After the fact, after the company being stolen from spends lots of money to try to prove that a single person shared something, which is getting harder and harder as time goes by. Given that almost no one ever gets caught because of this, the fact that it can be done is a meaningless distinction.

And of course the company is in the meantime being called a Nazi because they are terrorizing 'innocent people', and that's used as a justification to just steal more.

The only way it would change is to stop it from being a copyright issue, so that people doing it end up dealing with the FBI or police instead of the company. But that's not going to happen unless it's a large scale operation.
post #302 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

I like owning hard content or unprotected, non-streamed, owned soft content.
I know I am now a minority I guess, but it is a shame (although itunes is close to the latter actually, the only thing lacking is that they don't offer lossless, so I'm not really that much in the minority).

He-he.... Frankly, I would not mind owing unprotected, non -streamed content, in hi-res. That is what I do with my music, and I have no troubles to pay extra for it. However, I am not willing to pay 10-20$ for daily movies, most of which I would not even want to re-watch. A few ones that I did really enjoy and like to re-watch - yes, I have no problem to own. The majority of modern movies (for me) are like disposable paper plates - watch ones, and never remember again. After all, If I like it on the Netflix, I can buy a BD or DVD and be happy.
post #303 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veeper View Post

I hate to tell you this jack, but the fact that you're posting here on a computer puts you in the top 1% of the world. Please though, keep enlightening us on this "circle" of wealth.

Nonsense, why do ppl post such garbage.

A report commissioned by hard drive manufacturer Seagate has found that seventy-six percent of Americans own a personal computer, with large majorities also owning other electronic products, including videogame consoles.


http://askville.amazon.com/people-united-states-computer/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=9690308
post #304 of 491
vision-master, veeper is talking about world access to a computer, not just for Americans. If you look at what % of the 7 billion people on this planet have access to a PC, I think you'll find it much lower, somewhere around 1-10% depending on where the numbers come from.
post #305 of 491
I don't know. DVDs are the only product that I own that threaten me with huge fines and imprisonment in a half dozen languages. I am forced to watch it too. They mention Interpol and the FBI. I think it is the attitude that aggravates me. It's almost as if I should be grateful for the privilege of paying them.
post #306 of 491
That's like claiming that your neighbors, who have been robbed 100 times this year annoy you by putting up security cameras and a fence, as though you should be grateful for the chance to go to their house. It has nothing to do with you, it has to do with them being sick of being robbed, and something you'd almost certainly do yourself if you were being similarly plundered.

If you could replicate your coffee maker by the millions and hand them out, there'd be a similar warning on that as well. Also, if those warnings weren't there, every person who they did manage to catch would argue that there wasn't any warning that they shouldn't share the contents of the DVD, and they'd probably get away with it.
post #307 of 491
I was with you, Dean, until that post... I'm sorry, but that's a bad analogy. Personally speaking, I'm really sick of those stupid warning screens, logos and previews that disable the Main Menu function during playback (PCGs).

You're crazy if you think that deters video pirates and, like the TSA, serves only to annoy the reset of us.
post #308 of 491
I'm sure it's not remotely designed to target professional or commercial video pirates, it's just a legal issue. It's the copyright holder's legal responsibility to protect his copyright. I imagine that they want to create a situation where it's impossible for anyone in court to claim they didn't know they were doing the wrong thing. So at least the FBI warning should be non-skippable for that reason.

Previews are a completely different thing. That's just business related, and that's fair game to complain about if they can't be skipped. To be fair, I think that it's a very small percentage of discs that have non-skippable previews and other stuff. If you don't like them, let them know and don't buy the disc.
post #309 of 491
How come there are no piracy warnings on VoD movie rentals, Netflix rentals, etc...?

These warnings and trailers are part of the reason why people download movies - to get rid of all the crap.
post #310 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

How come there are no piracy warnings on VoD movie rentals, Netflix rentals, etc...?
These warnings and trailers are part of the reason why people download movies - to get rid of all the crap.

Trust me, the FBI & Interpol warnings, endless logos and promotional trailers (linked together into a mandatory PGC - Program Chain - that you cannot skip) will be coming soon to an LCD/Plasma/Projector near you.

The industry is weaning everyone off of optical plastic while they (a) wait for the internet infrastructure to improve to support more streaming customers and (b) for a larger audience to forget or care about reasonable PQ. These two goals will meet in the middle at some point; we may be there already, but I spoke to someone at Comcast recently that told me they are still struggling with customers and their understanding of what speeds are really required to support streaming video.

Once customers no longer have a choice, the PGCs will be back in full force.
post #311 of 491
Okay. I have a silly question here. Bear with me anyway.

Does this mean that I am essentially subject to arrest if I have burned any DVDs?
post #312 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhood8083 View Post

Okay. I have a silly question here. Bear with me anyway.
Does this mean that I am essentially subject to arrest if I have burned any DVDs?

No. But you cannot rip any-any-any DVDs, simply because you break the encription algorithm with the illegal software. biggrin.gif You can burn DVDs with your own content - home video. That would be O.K. I assume, any non copyrighted material can be burned on DVD. Probably some of the material that you legally purchased can be burned on DVD (read small font in terms and conditions). Soon you will not be able to even touch the jewel box without consulting a lawer.
post #313 of 491
Well it is possible to copy a DVD without circumventing the copy protection... http://club.myce.com/f62/mirillis-action-if-plays-stays-329472/#.UMARJ4N2yz4 tongue.gif
post #314 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by REDdawn6 View Post

But your not going to get a 25 year sentence for driving over the limit. Someone got some pockets lined for sure on this one.
Just another fine example of what's wrong with this country! Don't worry about the illegals or a crumbling infrastructure.
You sir hit the nail on the head.. .of all things to be wasting time, energy, and money on in our countries...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

I subscribe to Netflix a month or two ago, and it sucks, convenient yes but the quality simply is god awful.
DJoel
For this reason, I cancelled my membership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiddles88 View Post

Oh the irony. Every single copy protection ever invented has been cracked. Every single one. .
Cinavia ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by hithere View Post

...In this environment of digital piracy, these idiots are going after protections against their paying customers. I can't imagine a more wasteful and misguided approach to their problem.
Isn't that ironic, huh?? smile.gif
Edited by caper_1 - 12/6/12 at 8:30am
post #315 of 491
Sigh... It's so depressing, no matter how many times the record is set straight, that the same old misinformation pops back up again and again.

I'm sure that plenty of people are worried about crumbling infrastructure, and certainly a lot of people get bent out of shape over immigration, but that's no reason to just ignore the fact that three of our key industries in this company are being thrown to the wolves and are going to go down if something isn't done. No one is obligated to make movies or music or software for you, and they won't continue to do so if the money isn't there to make it worth the effort.

They are not fighting only their paying customers. All you have to do is look at what has happened to music (which is completely unprotected) and you will see that the number of people who pay when it's trivial not to is dropping by the day. Despite your potestations that the govt is wasting time protecting them, the fact is that they have almost zero protection from the government. They are left to their own devices and attempting technical protections is about their own option. If they just drop it and make all video content unprotected, it would hardly be worth their trying to sell it anymore other than streaming.

If you don't want to move to a pure streaming world, then spend more time putting peer pressure on those around you to stop stealing, and less time complaing about the attempts by the people who are being stolen from to protect themselves. We'd all be better off for it.
post #316 of 491
How about the studios get their act together and offer a viable streaming alternative.

I would love to move to a streaming only model. But mediocre AV quality and fragmentation in support (ultraviolet versus itunes, Disney not joining UV, etc) make it difficult

Have u seen the kinds of prices they demand for sub par quality?
Lets not make them out to be the only victims here
post #317 of 491
Have you tried to set up a high quality, world wide video streaming system that can get that high quality into a huge number of homes, securely, and deal with all of the political issues involved with ISPs and with various companies who would have to be involved, the payment systems, the customer support, and the investment it would take to create such a thing? I imagine if you did, you'd probably have a better perspective on why it is like it is currently.

And it's not like there is a single company that makes movies. There are hundreds of them, at various levels, and they all have their own needs and interests. Why can't you walk onto a car lot and buy any car from any company for a very low price? Even if it were technically possible, the auto industry isn't a monolithic entity and it would be massively difficult to create such a system purely on business grounds.
post #318 of 491
Have you tried to set up a high quality, world wide video streaming system that can get that high quality into a huge number of homes, securely, and deal with all of the political issues involved with ISPs and with various companies who would have to be involved, the payment systems, the customer support, and the investment it would take to create such a thing? I imagine if you did, you'd probably have a better perspective on why it is like it is currently.

And it's not like there is a single company that makes movies. There are hundreds of them, at various levels, and they all have their own needs and interests. Why can't you walk onto a car lot and buy any car from any company for a very low price? Even if it were technically possible, the auto industry isn't a monolithic entity and it would be massively difficult to create such a system purely on business grounds.
post #319 of 491
Wow, a bit of a posting glitch there... I guess I can't reiterate that point enough.
post #320 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by dima333a View Post

It is not the point. The movie and music industry does not need protection, it needs revolution. Jail time and the fine the size of a decent house for making a backup copy of my favorite DVD is not the solution. Re-buying the rights every time disc fails is not the solution for me, as the customer either. The laws of free market cannot be biased so much. If we go through such a struggle that the next in line of fair use, and the majority of consumers starts to fall into the category of criminals, then maybe there is something is wrong with the industry, not the consumers. That is the point.
People in Congress will first protect those, who pay their election campaign. 90% of the weath in this contry belongs to 20% of the population. With 1% of the population essentially having the third of the country. Sure, they have their ways of creating the laws. Who protects the interests of the majority? Did you ever wonder why middle class in this country is getting extinct?
wealtha.jpg
I doubt that such action will give much of an effect. Do you really believe that absolutely all those people who had been using illegal content would really buy it if it was not for free? Do they really have the money and desire to buy it? However, here we are not even talking about piracy. We are talking about personal use of absolutely legally purchased content, which is limited by the laws and the license to the absurd levels. By trying to cut the piracy, these laws more harm the actual customers who support the industry. Who do you think pays for all the attorneys and all the copy protection ( soft and hard )? By the end of the day, all is payed by the end user.

Typical victim. Blame people who have EARNED more than you to justify taking something that doesnt belong to you. Envy and moral justification are whats wrong with this country not the so called 1%. Stealing is stealing whether its intelectual property or tax dollars. The amount is inconsequetial. Its the act that is wrong. I will be the first to admit I am not perfect and yes I have copied DVDs, CD's tapes and even downloaded a song or 2 I didn't pay for but I will never be brainwashed to blame someone having more than me for what I did wrong. I'm old enough to remember when men were men and said what was on their mind, like, Yeah. I did it, so what. Not that SOB is rich so he deserves it. What does this chart or % of who earns what have to do with stealing content? Nothing other than to furhter the liberal message of class warfare. Get real.
post #321 of 491
I don't think that class warfare is exactly a liberal thing. You are probably making the classic error of confusing correlation with causation. The fact that more wealthy people happen to be conservative and more poor people happen to be liberal pretty much guarantees that more people who are poor will want to change the imbalance that currently exists and fewer people who are conservative will be wanting any change in the status quo.

And it's a little wrong to chide someone for making an off topic correlation between wealth and rataionlizations for theft, and then basically throwing in an off topic correlation yourself.
post #322 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

Have you tried to set up a high quality, world wide video streaming system that can get that high quality into a huge number of homes, securely, and deal with all of the political issues involved with ISPs and with various companies who would have to be involved, the payment systems, the customer support, and the investment it would take to create such a thing? I imagine if you did, you'd probably have a better perspective on why it is like it is currently.
And it's not like there is a single company that makes movies. There are hundreds of them, at various levels, and they all have their own needs and interests. Why can't you walk onto a car lot and buy any car from any company for a very low price? Even if it were technically possible, the auto industry isn't a monolithic entity and it would be massively difficult to create such a system purely on business grounds.

I'll be honest with you. I was expecting a response along these lines. And I have to agree with what u are saying. Well put

But I still want to feel like I am the one who is being treated unfairly by the studios biggrin.gif
At the end of the day I feel its the political stuff (more than technical challenges) preventing me from getting what I want
Maybe if the content providers standardized the way they use DRMs. There has to be some solution
At this point there is way too much fragmentation with everyone wanting to do their own thing.
I like the idea behind ultraviolet. Now if only it could be executed better (and supported by everyone), that would be a good start.
post #323 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post


but that's no reason to just ignore the fact that three of our key industries in this company are being thrown to the wolves and are going to go down if something isn't done.

You mean the industry that profits millions of dollars at the box office, before people start to pirate the movie en masse?
post #324 of 491
Well, to begin with, if I steal from you, can I argue that you make enough already, so what you are legally entitled to is fair game for me to steal? Unless you are willing to accept that fact, then your point is just hypocritical.

Leaving that aside, you don't know what they profit, only what they gross. People all too often around here, and everywhere, don't try to understand the simple business terms that they are arguing with. Lots of companies gross miillions or even billoins and go under because their expenses are even higher. Some movies do well at the box office, many do not. Just as the music industry puts out mostly failures, because there's no way to do otherwise, the movie industry has a small percentage of movies that make considerably more than they cost at the box office, they have a percentage that make more or less what they cost, and they have a percentage that lose money, sometimes a lot. And the production costs you see often don't include the marketing budget, which can be considerable.

A lot of movies don't really make any actual profit until they are out of the theater and move down the line through disc sales (and now streaming), PPV, hotels, OTA broadcast, etc...

The movie industry does have that key advantage over the music industry. But if your opinin is that they make plenty at the theaters and it's OK therefore to steal the movie after that, then what incentive do they have to even put it out after that? They aren't required to, and if everyone decides that it's ok to steal from them because they saw that Avatar made a lot money, then they may not.

And of course there is the same sort of hypocrasy involved here as in the music industry discussions so often, where people argue that the music labels make lots of money so why shouldn't I steal music, but they of course have absolutely no idea about the financial situation of the actual company that made a given piece of music they stole. As I said before, the movie industry isn't monolithic. There are lots of companies of varying size. Are all the peole out there strealing movies checking to see if they are stealing a movie from a company with a given profit this year? I doubt it. And the people stealing music will steal from a small indie label just as fast as from a large label.
post #325 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone61554 View Post

I'm old enough to remember when men were men and said what was on their mind, like, Yeah. I did it, so what. Not that SOB is rich so he deserves it. What does this chart or % of who earns what have to do with stealing content?

There's something to that. My Father's generation would have nothing but contempt for that class warfare stuff. And as I get older, so do I. Envy is not an admirable trait. You can argue about social inequities, but those are separate issues. To rationalize your *own* misbehavior is...hmmm... infantile?

Sadly, I don't think it registers with the younger generations.
post #326 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

There's something to that. My Father's generation would have nothing but contempt for that class warfare stuff. And as I get older, so do I. Envy is not an admirable trait. You can argue about social inequities, but those are separate issues. To rationalize your *own* misbehavior is...hmmm... infantile?
Sadly, I don't think it registers with the younger generations.

I have known a few rich people. Not Bill Gates rich but people who have been exceedingly comfortable and couldn't ever spend all of their money if they lived to be a 100. And you know what? They weren't that happy. They had spent too much time working. They had missed too much of their children's childhood and no amount of time spent with their grand children would ever bring that back. I'm happy to say that I only missed one of my daughter's concerts. She played in the band and orchestra from 4th grade through high school. She's now a freshman in college and I will never regret the time that I spent with her. My brother told me twenty years ago that no one on their death wishes that they had stayed late at work more often.

Anyway, I do not envy the rich because I know that secretly they envy me! biggrin.gif
post #327 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

Well, to begin with, if I steal from you, can I argue that you make enough already, so what you are legally entitled to is fair game for me to steal? Unless you are willing to accept that fact, then your point is just hypocritical.


If I was rich and you broke into my home and stole my TV, I'd be quite cross.

If I was rich and you stole from me, but your act of stealing left me with no less than before the theft then I don't think I'd have anything to complain about.


I'm not saying it's right, but the generic comparison to theft can't really be made here.
post #328 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

If I was rich and you broke into my home and stole my TV, I'd be quite cross.
If I was rich and you stole from me, but your act of stealing left me with no less than before the theft then I don't think I'd have anything to complain about.
I'm not saying it's right, but the generic comparison to theft can't really be made here.

That's just not a valid argument. Let's say you sell vegetables, and you have a machine that can copy those vegetables, but it costs you $50,000,000 investment to grow the first of each new type of vegetable. You create five varieties for a quarter billion, and you start copying them and selling them. Then people start coming along and steal half of them. You can make new copies to replace those, but they get stolen as well, then other people start copying them and putting them out for people to take. You can make more copies of your own, and you still have as many vegetables as you started with, but your revenues relative to your investment keep going down. The fact that you have vegetables still doesn't make any difference. The bank won't take vegetables as mortgage payment, and you can't keep finding more people to buy them, because anyone who wants them can just take them.

Word gets out that it's easy to steal your vegetables, so more and more people start stealing them. You show up on a forum where people are talking about how to do it, and you complain, and they say, look we aren't taking anything from you. You can create new ones. Some people still buy your vegetables so why are you complaining?

But you of course are looking at another $50M to create another variety, and the fact that more and more people are going to just steal them, and that being able to make more of them isn't going to help because it's the revenues from the sales of the vegetables that you need in order to continue forward. Eventually you are going to just say, oh well, screw it. It's not worth doing.
post #329 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

That's just not a valid argument. Let's say you sell vegetables, and you have a machine that can copy those vegetables, but it costs you $50,000,000 investment to grow the first of each new type of vegetable. You create five varieties for a quarter billion, and you start copying them and selling them. Then people start coming along and steal half of them. You can make new copies to replace those, but they get stolen as well, then other people start copying them and putting them out for people to take. You can make more copies of your own, and you still have as many vegetables as you started with, but your revenues relative to your investment keep going down. The fact that you have vegetables still doesn't make any difference. The bank won't take vegetables as mortgage payment, and you can't keep finding more people to buy them, because anyone who wants them can just take them.
Word gets out that it's easy to steal your vegetables, so more and more people start stealing them. You show up on a forum where people are talking about how to do it, and you complain, and they say, look we aren't taking anything from you. You can create new ones. Some people still buy your vegetables so why are you complaining?
But you of course are looking at another $50M to create another variety, and the fact that more and more people are going to just steal them, and that being able to make more of them isn't going to help because it's the revenues from the sales of the vegetables that you need in order to continue forward. Eventually you are going to just say, oh well, screw it. It's not worth doing.

Things that are given to you have no value so I guess it stands to reason a person who didn't earn something sees no value in something someone else did.
post #330 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone61554 View Post

Things that are given to you have no value so I guess it stands to reason a person who didn't earn something sees no value in something someone else did.

That's true, but of course it goes back to what I was replying to. Your work for whoever you work for is 'given' to the company. They didn't do it. But your work still has value because you are legally protected. The only reason that music and movies are losing their value is because they no longer have the protections they are guaranteed.

And, what kills me is that people start talking about how these companies are buying politicians in order to get their legally guaranteed rights. But, copyright is one of the few such commercial protections that is actually in the Constitution itself. That's how important it was to the founders of this country.

If IP creators were getting their rights protected as they should be, then they wouldn't have to be putting copy protection on their movies, or at least would be a lot more relaxed about people copying them to disc and companies making the tools to allow that. But copyright law was never designed to deal with the current situation. It was created on the assumption that any level of theft that would be damaging would have to be done at a commercial level, and therefore would be amenable to legal attack via law suit. But now the situation has been turned on its head, and copyright as it stands is completely useless. You can spend $100,000 to sue one person, well whoopity doo. Not only is it not worth it, but you get accused of being evil for doing it.

Ultimately non-profit copyright violation has to move out of the area of civil law and into the area of criminal law, so that people will end up dealing with the police and FBI, not a law suit. It's crazy that you can go to jail if you go into a grocery store and steal $50 worth of stuff, but if you steal $5,000 worth of IP, it's likely little will ever happen to you, even if you get caught. And if something does, it's only because the folks you stole from spent $50,000 to make it happen. It just doesn't make sense anymore given the facts on the ground.
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