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New Ruling Confirms Copying DVDs is Illegal - Page 12

post #331 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

That's true, but of course it goes back to what I was replying to. Your work for whoever you work for is 'given' to the company. They didn't do it. But your work still has value because you are legally protected. The only reason that music and movies are losing their value is because they no longer have the protections they are guaranteed.
And, what kills me is that people start talking about how these companies are buying politicians in order to get their legally guaranteed rights. But, copyright is one of the few such commercial protections that is actually in the Constitution itself. That's how important it was to the founders of this country.
If IP creators were getting their rights protected as they should be, then they wouldn't have to be putting copy protection on their movies, or at least would be a lot more relaxed about people copying them to disc and companies making the tools to allow that. But copyright law was never designed to deal with the current situation. It was created on the assumption that any level of theft that would be damaging would have to be done at a commercial level, and therefore would be amenable to legal attack via law suit. But now the situation has been turned on its head, and copyright as it stands is completely useless. You can spend $100,000 to sue one person, well whoopity doo. Not only is it not worth it, but you get accused of being evil for doing it.
Ultimately non-profit copyright violation has to move out of the area of civil law and into the area of criminal law, so that people will end up dealing with the police and FBI, not a law suit. It's crazy that you can go to jail if you go into a grocery store and steal $50 worth of stuff, but if you steal $5,000 worth of IP, it's likely little will ever happen to you, even if you get caught. And if something does, it's only because the folks you stole from spent $50,000 to make it happen. It just doesn't make sense anymore given the facts on the ground.

As a side note but relative, ask someone on here the exact settings a professional calibrator used on thier set and they will get offended and say thats how he/she makes thier living, I could never give you that. Ask the same person how to finagle a price match from BB or any other B&M retailer by using a bogus online price from a highly disreputable website and they'll have 10 ways to do it. Whoever said hypocrite in an earlier post was dead on.
post #332 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

Ultimately non-profit copyright violation has to move out of the area of civil law and into the area of criminal law, so that people will end up dealing with the police and FBI, not a law suit. It's crazy that you can go to jail if you go into a grocery store and steal $50 worth of stuff, but if you steal $5,000 worth of IP, it's likely little will ever happen to you, even if you get caught. And if something does, it's only because the folks you stole from spent $50,000 to make it happen. It just doesn't make sense anymore given the facts on the ground.

While I agree that enforcement of existing copyright laws would really help clean this mess up, the police and FBI have enough on their plates already. There's a lot of laws that need enforcing, gun ownership for example.
post #333 of 491
"Ultimately non-profit copyright violation has to move out of the area of civil law and into the area of criminal law"

I imagine the jailhouse conversations will go something like this:

"My, those are some mean looking tattoos. What are you in here for?"
"Armed robbery, vehicular homicide. You?"
"I downloaded a movie because the disc I bought got scratched and it wouldn't work in my DVD player anymore."
post #334 of 491
those buttwipes can kiss it where the sun dont shine. I bought em, I own em, and I will copy em to whatever I want.
post #335 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray in Kingwood View Post

those buttwipes can kiss it where the sun dont shine. I bought em, I own em, and I will copy em to whatever I want.

I agree whole heartedly. The police are busy dusting powdered sugar off their blues.
post #336 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

"Ultimately non-profit copyright violation has to move out of the area of civil law and into the area of criminal law"
I imagine the jailhouse conversations will go something like this:
"My, those are some mean looking tattoos. What are you in here for?"
"Armed robbery, vehicular homicide. You?"
"I downloaded a movie because the disc I bought got scratched and it wouldn't work in my DVD player anymore."

Lol
post #337 of 491
Well, to be technical, that's nothing to do with copyright law per se, right? Does that fall under another sort of law? Anyway, as with any other criminal offence, it would obviously scale based on the serverity of the crime. And of course no one is ever going to know if you ripped your own legally owned DVDs. And, if they did, they wouldn't remotely bother to do anything about it because it would gain them nothing, cost them a lot in both money and bad press, and waste everyone's time because it's unlikely anything would be done to you in court anyway.

A 55MPH speed limit isn't about putting people who drive 56MPH in jail. A criminal copyright enforcement system wouldn't be about putting people in jail who made a mix CD for a friend. It would primarily be about making people think more about what they do, because they'd know that it won't be a law suit when they are found with 200 illegally downloaded movies, or sharing a thousand MP3 files for anyone else to come donwload, they'll be looking at the same treatment that anyone who does that kind of level of theft against anyone else besides IP creators would get. So often people seem to act like IP creators are asknig for special treatment, but in fact they effectively lack the rights that everyone else takes for granted.
post #338 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

How come there are no piracy warnings on VoD movie rentals, Netflix rentals, etc...?

These warnings and trailers are part of the reason why people download movies - to get rid of all the crap.

yea right... sure they do...
post #339 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

So often people seem to act like IP creators are asknig for special treatment, but in fact they effectively lack the rights that everyone else takes for granted.

Well, Dean, to be technical.... IP protection is a tricky thing, and in many aspects is not natural to the market laws, as well as it might work for and against the progress of humanity. But I am not going to argue with you about it.

As far as the specifics for the movies and music media, here you are arguing wrong issue to the wrong crowd. The very point of this discussion is that the law prohibits copying DVDs /BDs even for back up or personal purposes. The people here are not advocating piracy or abuse of IP. They argue their right to use the legally purchased content in a way they want. Specifically they want to be able to make and store soft and hard copies for personal use. The current law and IP owners (not creators) do not allow doing so.
So far, I have heard from you two arguments: We have to sacrifice our convenience to help protecting IP, and go ahead and break the law for personal purposes, because Dean Roddey said that they will not do anything to you as far as you are not sharing.

I personally think that is not right. The goal here is that people should not have to feel like criminals, when they want and use the legally purchased content flexibly. We should not have to break the law, to make a personal back up copy or copy for home streaming server. Even if Dean Roddey said that it is O.K. to break the law for personal non sharing purposes. Even if we know that the law enforcement will hardly catch us and hardly bother to do anything about it. The fact is that such law is not just stupid, but dangerous. It does allow abuse or selective abuse to target selected people. I understand the content owners are desperate to protect their business, but that is slightly different and certainly much longer conversation.
post #340 of 491
Laws like this that prevent copying legally owned discs for personal use just tick people off and cause more piracy than it prevents.
post #341 of 491
Does anyone here have any insight to what goes on in the boardrooms of the companies that are pushing these laws? I'm just wondering if we are actually collateral damage. Could mass copying by pirates for black market sales be what the IP owners are trying to stop instead of our single copying for personal use? A single law covering everyone might be cheaper to implement than physically going after the real criminals. If your on this great forum and have media on an NAS, I'll bet you still don't feel like a criminal, because you're not. I would really like to know what is topic # 1 in these boardrooms.
Patrick
post #342 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

yea right... sure they do...

Every disc I have ever rented has all kinds of warnings. You must be talking about streaming, on which I haven't seen any warnings. In any court however ignorance of the law will never get you off. But, I agree with someone in this thread who posted that door to door swat teams will never happen.
post #343 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

Does anyone here have any insight to what goes on in the boardrooms of the companies that are pushing these laws? I'm just wondering if we are actually collateral damage. Could mass copying by pirates for black market sales be what the IP owners are trying to stop instead of our single copying for personal use? A single law covering everyone might be cheaper to implement than physically going after the real criminals. If your on this great forum and have media on an NAS, I'll bet you still don't feel like a criminal, because you're not. I would really like to know what is topic # 1 in these boardrooms.
Patrick

That's exactly it, as I and others have argued previously on this thread, except that it's not mass copying by pirates that's the actual issue, but file sharing on the internet. Commercial pirates trying to sell pirate discs are probably just about as endangered as legitimate companies that make the orignal discs. They can't compete with free either in the long term, and probably will only survive in those places where internet availability continues to be limited. File sharing is created a situation in which formerly most law abiding markets have become cess pools of IP theft, and that's what's doing the damage. Dirt farmers in rural Cambodia buying pirated discs in the past was just a reality, and only getting those country's standard of living raised (and native IP industries developed so that they are no longer purely on the winning end of piracy) would have changed that. The (formerly) law abiding first world countries provided a viable market in the meantime. But, that went out the door when the internet came along, and that's why it's so damaging. The folks who used to do the right thing stopped doing the right thing.
post #344 of 491
With SO MUCH to watch and SO LITTLE time to do it - who has time to watch something twice anyways?!
So why bother wasting the time to download what you want, when FAR less time is spent, just putting the BD in the Player and watching? Even skipping through the Crap doesn't take that long!
A lot of Time, Server Space and Resources are being used up in this frivolous FILE BS, when the Forum's Original purpose was help people out with technical details and problems of Hardware they've purchased, or thinking of purchasing! Not having to wade through page after page of members complaining their files don't work on their BD Players! A Blu-ray Player is there for that reason - to play Blu-rays!
If we're going to have to put up with this FILE BS, then Forums should be divided into parts. Part A for Hardware Only people, Part B, for those who want to partake of their File Problems. This way, each group doesn't have to wade through the others issues!
So, do I think people should be able to copy their own legal copies - yes - but put the issues of doing so in Part B, and leave us Part A people out of it!
post #345 of 491
just wait till there's a Spotify for Movies...
post #346 of 491
Is there really not a single congressman out there pissed off enough about this so-called (illegal) ruling to make them want to submit a bill solidifying our rights to backup movies once and for all?
post #347 of 491
It a) goes against decades of "fair use" legal precedent and b) is virtually unenforceable.
post #348 of 491
I'm no lawyer, but I did take a required digital legal course five years ago while getting a computer security cert. Most of the digital laws trail device useage by years. Gven that most of the laws stem from the print age copywrite laws, a lot of the useage laws did not anticipate file sharing capabilities, and the big players in the fields are trying to keep control.

I don't think it goes against fair use precedent. Again, if you are a lawyer, I apologize. However, the digital millenium copywrite act (DCMA) criminalizes circumventing of access to copywrited works. Like one of the guys said, you are buying access to a DVD, not the right to use it in all formats.

As for unenforceable...probably right, unless you back up stuff on line or take a hard disk/computer in for repair.

I totally agree with folks who say this is really dumb, and that it sure would be smarter for the recording industry to promote use across the spectrum of digital devices someone owns by licensing you to use it that way.

You notice that many computer programs now offer a "house license" for 3+ computers or all computers in the house. A license across digital devices could work the same way. Of course, you would have to then keep all your receipts and original DVD's.

For those scofflaws out there, there was a gal in Duluth, MN who pirated 24 songs and got a $1.92 M fine. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9134582/Analysis_1.92M_fine_in_music_piracy_case_could_hurt_RIAA
post #349 of 491
It wasn't 24 songs, it was over 1700 songs. They only chose to concentrate on 24. And, if it was anything like what normally happens, she would have been offered a deal to pay something vastly less than that, and avoid the trial. In a number of cases, people have been offered a very reasonable way out, but they refused and went to trial and the trial went against them and then everyone acts like the record companies are somehow driving poor housewives into poverty.
post #350 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

...everyone acts like the record companies are somehow driving poor housewives into poverty.

They are:

post #351 of 491
I have never done this but now I really want to put together a media server. .biggrin.gif
post #352 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

You can spend $100,000 to sue one person, well whoopity doo. Not only is it not worth it, but you get accused of being evil for doing it.
I guess some people didn't like seeing them sue children, non-computer owners and dead people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

Ultimately non-profit copyright violation has to move out of the area of civil law and into the area of criminal law, so that people will end up dealing with the police and FBI, not a law suit. It's crazy that you can go to jail if you go into a grocery store and steal $50 worth of stuff, but if you steal $5,000 worth of IP, it's likely little will ever happen to you, even if you get caught. And if something does, it's only because the folks you stole from spent $50,000 to make it happen. It just doesn't make sense anymore given the facts on the ground.
So now they want to arrest children too? I don't want my taxpayer dollars spent on that. Just once I'd like to be able to call the police on a business that ripped me off. But they won't even investigate that kind of crime.
post #353 of 491
No, they won't investigate that, because that's a business transaction between two consenting parties, and just not in the same realm as theft against a non-consenting party. And of course your inflammatory insistence on talking about child abuse is tyipcal of what goes on in these types of debates. If the person is a minor, then the parents should be responsible for their actions, as they would be if that minor went into a store and stole stuff.
post #354 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Coulson View Post

I'm no lawyer, but I did take a required digital legal course five years ago while getting a computer security cert. Most of the digital laws trail device useage by years. …Like one of the guys said, you are buying access to a DVD, not the right to use it in all formats.

As for unenforceable...probably right, unless you back up stuff on line or take a hard disk/computer in for repair.
confused.gifrolleyes.gif

1)) How will anyone find out if I have my backed-up DVDs uploaded on my personal account somewhere online??? This would be impossible to do without having a valid reason to obtain a legal search warrant.

2)) I only fix my own computers but I do know someone who runs a PC shop and I asked him this specific question. He laughed and said he has contacted the authorities only in two types of instances in the 18 years of recovering files from hard-drives.

The first type of instance is when he finds child pornography – he drops everything and runs to the phone.

The second type of instance is when he finds a bunch of credit card numbers – he hesitates because many folks run a legitimate business collecting CC payments using a personal PC – but if it appears like there may be fraud involved he calls the police.

He said he sees some sort of either backed up music or videos in about 75 percent of HDDs he fixes and if he was to call the authorities 6 times a day for this – they would probably throw him in jail. That’s what he said…
post #355 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

No, they won't investigate that, because that's a business transaction between two consenting parties, and just not in the same realm as theft against a non-consenting party. And of course your inflammatory insistence on talking about child abuse is tyipcal of what goes on in these types of debates. If the person is a minor, then the parents should be responsible for their actions, as they would be if that minor went into a store and stole stuff.
Can you describe the stolen DVD? Yes officer, I have it right here eek.gif
So, If I modify my ceiling fan to make it spin faster the manufacturer can void the warranty, but I can't be criminally charged because it's a "business transaction".
If I modify my DVD format, so it will work with my setup, it's also a "business transaction".
post #356 of 491
How about media servers and the associated programs that play these files. Don't they have "features" that find titles , thumbnails, etc for files on your server or the programs used to back up your movies, could they also "phone home" and give a list of your files to someone ??
Programs like XBM, Media Player, Slysoft (AnyDVD).

Way back ... the rational used to be as long as I don't distribute I am OK. Like "if I don't inhale"

Merr Christmas to All
post #357 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2weeks View Post

Can you describe the stolen DVD? Yes officer, I have it right here eek.gif
So, If I modify my ceiling fan to make it spin faster the manufacturer can void the warranty, but I can't be criminally charged because it's a "business transaction".
If I modify my DVD format, so it will work with my setup, it's also a "business transaction".

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are responding to, so I'm not sure how to respond.
post #358 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

With SO MUCH to watch and SO LITTLE time to do it - who has time to watch something twice anyways?!
So why bother wasting the time to download what you want, when FAR less time is spent, just putting the BD in the Player and watching? Even skipping through the Crap doesn't take that long!

I have my movies ripped because it's far more enjoyable to browse via (insert favorite HTPC media manager here), hit "play" and have the movie start instantly without any trailers, menus and other crap to navigate through.

It also protects the discs from damage if they're stored away and all the content is on hard disc.
post #359 of 491
Why aren't more manufacturers making megadisc changers? As far as I know, the only blu-ray changer to ever hit the market (two models) was made by Sony. They have constant technical issues, thus making them a risky and expensive purchase (not to mention they're all used at this point).
post #360 of 491
I had the same question regarding bd changers.
Unless the manufacturers think that this would not appeal to the masses (since anyways lot of people have taken the "illegal" route of ripping their discs and using media servers)
Sigh!
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