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The Park Place Build

post #1 of 54
11/1/12 at 8:59am
Thread Starter 
Hi Everyone - I'm reaching out to you pros and enthusiasts for some guidance.

I'm in the middle of a basement renovation, and I have a 21' x 12.5' room that will be my HT; I'd love to have more space but, unfortunately, that's not happening. I'm doing DS, DD, GG construction for the walls and clips, channels, DD, GG for the ceiling.

Here's a drawing of the layout:



The two main issues I'm dealing with are: a) the window, and b) the jutting in of the foundation wall. I've considered framing a wall flush with the foundation wall creating a long flat wall, + s: block the light, rectangular room, provide a place to incorporate equipment rack; minuses: lose valuable width (the 12.5 ft measurement is for the widest part). Alternatively, I would just frame in the window and drywall.

What would you guys do in this situation? Also, do I need to use DD and GG for the wall beside the foundation?

I don't have any components picked out but would like a 2.40:1 AT screen; I know the required depth behind the screen wall depends on the speakers, but is there a safe minimum that won't limit me to <95% of available speakers?

I'm looking forward to reading your responses.

Don
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post #2 of 54
11/2/12 at 7:21pm
Thread Starter 
I could really use some insight please.
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post #3 of 54
11/3/12 at 4:24am
For any soundproofing questions I'd give Ted at Sound Proofing Company a call. I'm only in the planning stage myself. I spoke to him yesterday, and he was very helpful.
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post #4 of 54
11/3/12 at 4:29am
You neglected to tell us the width of the room at the narrow end. That aside, if you frame that out as a straight wall, you can use that space as a pressure absorber for bass frequencies (and, for the record, that window is a "bass trap" all by it's lonesome).
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post #5 of 54
11/3/12 at 10:52am
I framed in the two windows that were in my theater. Made light control a non-issue and the tiny windows would have been hard to frame around and still have a good theater room.
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post #6 of 54
11/3/12 at 2:39pm
My build is very similar. I've got 12 feet (ish) width, and between 21 and 24 feet for length. I also removed a window. (Progress is slow, but you can see I how I came to the pertinent conclusions for your questions by reading at the link in my signature.)

Removing the window was not a big deal. I was apprehensive, but the whole process was done in a few hours (over a couple days, as a result of material supply issues). I would do it again without question. I think Dennis has given you a really good idea about using that free space as a pressure based absorber - that's something else I'm working into my design.

Space behind the screen can be as much or as little as you want, but I would plan on being able to fit a large sub behind it, so 2.5 feet is probably adequate for most good large-ish subs. That should be good for most any normal speaker as well (though there are some like pro JBL boxes that might not fit).

Also, as Dennis said, what's the narrow end width?

For soundproofing, yes you want to treat all the walls and ceiling, including the foundation-adjacent walls..

You're off to a good start, but there's a lot more to consider. What other details are you considering? (HVAC, riser, seating)
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post #7 of 54
11/4/12 at 8:37am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replies!

@trancemitr - yeah, one of the first things I did was contact Ted - very insightful, helpful, and patient. I'll be placing my order first thing Monday. I know the wall adjacent to the foundation is already decoupled but forgot to ask Ted whether it requires the DD and GG.

@Dennis Erskine - after drywalling, the narrower part of the room will be 9' 11", and the wider will be 11' 11" (the 12.5' was without the double wall). Wow that's a lot of screen width to sacrifice!
Quote:
....if you frame that out as a straight wall, you can use that space as a pressure absorber for bass frequencies (and, for the record, that window is a "bass trap" all by it's lonesome).

The first half sounds like a good thing, the part in parentheses not so much. Would you please elaborate on the latter?

@fcaico - if I choose to keep the one wall staggered, i will for sure frame and block the window.

@HopefulFred - I'll be giving your build thread a read; thanks...also appreciate the info on space behind the screen. Thanks!

I'll have to research more into Dennis's suggestion. I like the idea of making it functional (hence the equipment rack) but never considered using it for AT.

Here's some more info on the room that I didn't include in the original post:
- I have an I-beam almost bisecting the room width-wise which 'll be framing around; given that I want to build a soffit for hvac and rope lighting means I'll have 2 soffits half the size as opposed to one continuous around the perimeter. Will this have a negative effect on the sound? What implications, if any, will this have on the venting? Aesthetically, I'm having difficulty picturing what it will look like, but honestly I don't think I'll mind if the performance of the room is not affected
- I'm aiming for 2 rows of seating (either 3/2 or 2/2; front/back) with the back row on a riser. I'm going to try and decide on a size of screen, so I can start calculating viewing distances and riser heights, etc. Or should this wait for a later stage?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the distance from the left wall to the point where the room narrows is 13 feet.
Edited by saysomething - 11/4/12 at 9:04am
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post #8 of 54
11/6/12 at 8:03am
Thread Starter 
I've been doing some thread reading on using the riser as a bass trap and, needless to say..... eek.gif I think a better way for me to look at it would be: "What should I do with my riser as to not mess up the bass too bad?" It sounds like loosely filling with R19 just like the walls and ceilings is safe. I'm planning on using 2x10s and however many layers of plywood needed to reach the desired height.

Speaking of which, I know there's a sticky with a riser height calculator, but I haven't yet determined the width of my screen nor how high up the wall I'll be placing. I've asked Mike of AVScience for some help in this regard; he's responded but he's super busy - hopefully I'll hear from him within the next couple of days.
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post #9 of 54
11/6/12 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by saysomething View Post

It sounds like loosely filling with R19 just like the walls and ceilings is safe.
Not just safe, but recommended. However, depending on the depth of riser I wouldnt use R19 - its only about 3.5" thick (I think). If your riser is 12" you may want to use R38 instead. You'll save alot of cash.
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post #10 of 54
11/6/12 at 9:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcaico View Post

Not just safe, but recommended. However, depending on the depth of riser I wouldnt use R19 - its only about 3.5" thick (I think). If your riser is 12" you may want to use R38 instead. You'll save alot of cash.

Use R38 instead of buying double the amount of R19? Makes sense.
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post #11 of 54
11/6/12 at 9:25am
Thread Starter 
If I'm building and attaching soffits/bulkheads after room within a room construction is complete, should the be constructed using dd and gg? I'm planning on adding venting that runs to the outside hallway.
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post #12 of 54
11/6/12 at 1:01pm
Yes, soffits that include air ducts should be double-built, to keep sound out of the duct.
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post #13 of 54
11/8/12 at 6:52am
Thread Starter 
Since the walls are all open right now, would it be simpler to use wall cavities to address the hvac for the room? This will make the construction of the soffits easier, no?
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post #14 of 54
11/8/12 at 7:03am
Thread Starter 
I'm in a bit of a panic here - most of the building materials will be arriving by Monday at the latest, and I haven't planned a lick of the electrical/cabling for the room eek.gif

Would someone please provide a list or a link to a list of items I need to consider? I have a 40 A, 230 V sub-panel on the reverse side of the theater's rear wall (okay, I planned a little, but this is it!). My ceiling joists run parallel to the length of the room, but I have an I-beam running perpendicular. I'm planning on building soffits but, again, the I-beam might interfere. I really need to add pics to this thread.
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post #15 of 54
11/8/12 at 7:25am
If you create open bottom soffits (that you would close up later with fabric frames or something) then you would be able to add wiring later buying yourself a little more time to come up with a plan. It also makes it nice and easy to run speaker wires, HDMI cables, HVAC, etc.

IMG_2378.jpg
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post #16 of 54
11/8/12 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for chiming in, Vanice. I started perusing your build a few weeks back and was impressed with what I saw. Nice work not even considering you're doing everything yourself!

Using your suggestion, I essentially need to plan the wall lighting and anything behind the screen, as there will be no columns or soffits back there. Am I missing something?
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post #17 of 54
11/8/12 at 9:12am
Just off the top of my head, HVAC for the room, outlets for vacuums/laptops/etc., wire pulls to the projector location, and cat cable anyplace you may want to hook in a laptop. Also you may want to think about running empty conduit for future use. Could save you a lot of headaches in the future if you decide you need to add another set of speakers or new cabling as standards change.
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post #18 of 54
11/10/12 at 5:26am
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Vanice. Thanks for the laptop reminder. I had my contractor pre-wire Cat cable to most of the rooms in the new basement and even up the walls for a few rooms upstairs...would've been foolish not to wire the theater but wouldn't put it past myself.

I need some advice on circuits. Here's a list of equipment I plan on using:

-Projector
-powered sub (1 for now, but want option to add another later); considering the ultra-13
-pre/pro
-5 ch amp for front stage and another zone
-2 ch amp for side/rear surrounds
-htpc, blu-ray, ps3,

In terms of circuits from my pony panel, how does the following sound?

4 - 20A circuits going to my equipment area; 1 for each amp, 2 for the rest of the equipment (does it matter what components are together)
2 - 20A circuits for the powered subs
2 - 15A circuits for non-AV; 1 for all the utility outfits, 1 for lighting

I'm not sure what to do for the projector; I don't think it needs its own circuit, but to which circuit should it be added?
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post #19 of 54
11/10/12 at 5:34am
Thread Starter 
I see a lot of builds utilising blue flexible tubes. Are these used to house electrical circuit lines? speaker wire? both?

(edited to ask another q): I see a lot of people suggest running speaker/hdmi/cat cable outside the conduit and keep the conduit empty for future use; why is that?

If you're thinking, "shut up and just do it!", you're not the only one biggrin.gif, as I know I should just heed the advice of the wiser and more experienced. I blame it on my upbringing. My next question is, "How do you know?"
Edited by saysomething - 11/10/12 at 5:48am
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post #20 of 54
11/10/12 at 6:23am
I'm pretty sure you are allowed to run both types of lines in the blue conduit, but I think there are certain codes that limit how and where you can use it for electrical. Feel free to do what you want with it for low-voltage, as long as you're not doing anything to compromise your structure. You wouldn't want to run both types in the same conduit, and frankly, you might not be able to fit both as the blue stuff isn't very big. If you have a lot to run, use the larger gray electrical conduit. For reference, a single RG6 cable with RCA connectors just barely fit through 3/4" blue conduit. If my bends were any tighter or I needed to run it with something else, I would have been in trouble. I actually ordered extra RCA connectors because I thought it might not fit. I thought I might have to cut off the existing connectors so I could pull it through, and then solder new ones on once it was pulled, but fortunately it worked out.

I have some empty conduit for future use, but most of mine was put in so I could easily pull LV cable after the drywall went up. I didn't really see a need to run the cable in the wall and leave the conduit empty. If I need to add more later, it's easy enough to do. If I need to replace/upgrade cable down the road, I already have a cable in the conduit that I can use as a pull rope.

Most will tell you to leave it empty. I say it's your call.
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post #21 of 54
11/10/12 at 7:03am
I would say it's inappropriate to use the blue conduits for power - I'm pretty sure it would be a code violation. Besides - when was the list time you heard of someone needing to move or replace the power cable in their wall? You just have to plan to put it somewhere good and work with it there.

I'm on the fence for clear recommendations about how to use conduit in a situation like yours. Are you worried about not having the right cable at some point in the future, or are you worried about being able to replace a cable if it fails? If you do want to replace a failed cable, is it important that you can remove it?

For instance, I'm considering conduit for subwoofer signals in my riser - but I don't know if my subs will have integrated amps. So will I want speaker wire, unbalanced, or balanced? Maybe a conduit is the simplest choice for indecision and flexibility (as long as I have power nearby). Similarly, if you think you might consider speakers that need a cable for active DSP or that need separate amps for each driver, or even adding extra height loudspeakers, then conduit to those locations makes sense. Then there's the only one that makes me nervous - the HDMI to the projector. That, IMO is the most likely to fail, and the hardest to replace because of the large connector - most of the small conduits have trouble passing the ends - so a large conduit makes sense to me there - but I think that's the only case where I would more-or-less universally recommend installing conduit.

So, if you want to be able to add or replace a cable, use conduit. If you want to remove the failed cable, put it in the conduit in place of a pull string.
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post #22 of 54
11/10/12 at 9:01am
On the projector circuit, ground loops are a common problem. I like to make sure my projector is powered from the same circuit as the AV receiver or pre/pro, with careful attention paid to common grounding of the two components. Also, many like to feed the projector from a UPS (to protect the lamp against power blackouts), so I like to power both the projector and the pre/pro from the same UPS.
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post #23 of 54
11/10/12 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for chiming in, guys.

Let me see if I have this straight:
The blue conduit is narrow and not for running power. Then what's being terminated at those blue boxes of the same colour - speaker posts, cat5, or hdmi?
If I need to run several low-voltage wires to the same location, put them in the conduit if I'm concerned about replacing a bad cable. I'll probably just leave the wire, so I should have an empty conduit running from equipment to the front stage. Running conduit to each surround seems excessive, but what if one of these speaker wires fail? Is this where the blue conduit becomes useful?
Run grey conduit from the projector location to my video processor in case of hdmi failure.
Consider having the projector and pre/pro on the same circuit and on a UPS - would this mean the projector is plugged into an extension cord which runs to a UPS located in the equipment room? I've never seen a UPS that can be hard wired into a circuit...then again, I haven't seen much.
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post #24 of 54
11/10/12 at 5:02pm
Thread Starter 
Finally, some pics!

Looking at the front of the theatre. There are some coupled studs on the right side that I'll have to get my contractor to fix.
da0c379f_DSC_9434.jpeg

The window that I'm going to be covering in a way that is somewhat easily reversible.


I've read suggestions about a closed blind and plywood but haven't been able to find posts with more details or pics. Anybody have experience doing this and care to share his advice?

Looking towards the back of the room.


In the left of the frame you can see where the foundation wall juts into the room. In the background is the plumbing for my septic, injector pump, and sump. I'll be hanging the pony panel in this space. Hmmm....water and electricity...am I asking for trouble?

The I-beam I'm dealing with in the middle of the ceiling.


My plan here is to build a bulkhead attached directly to the ceiling joists; use 2x4s for bracing; attach clips to the 2x4s on both vertical and the one horizontal surfaces and then channels, DD, GG, acoustic seal the corners. Am I overlooking something? or is there an easier way to do this?
Edited by saysomething - 11/10/12 at 5:10pm
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post #25 of 54
11/10/12 at 5:35pm
Generally, you can't run an extension cord inside a wall.
You may need something like this Power Bridge to extend the outlet in-wall to the projector:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202548624&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=202548624&ci_kw={keyword}&kwd={keyword}&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-202548624&ci_gpa=pla#.UJ8AcWewWhE
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post #26 of 54
11/12/12 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice and link, LeBon.

I need some advice on circuits. Here's a list of equipment I plan on using:
-Projector
-powered sub (1 for now, but want option to add another later); considering the ultra-13
-pre/pro
-5 ch amp for front stage and another zone
-2 ch amp for side/rear surrounds
-htpc, blu-ray, ps3,
In terms of circuits from my pony panel, how does the following sound?
4 - 20A circuits going to my equipment area; 1 for each amp, 2 for the rest of the equipment (does it matter what components are together)
2 - 20A circuits for the powered subs
2 - 15A circuits for non-AV; 1 for all the utility outfits, 1 for lighting

Does the rest look okay? Anybody else care to share their wisdom?
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post #27 of 54
11/12/12 at 12:57pm
You can probably run all your electronics (except power amps) plus the projector on one 20A ckt. I used an APC S20BLK power conditioner/UPS on this circuit.
Another 20A ckt for your power amplifiers is good, unless you are using lots of wattage.
Another 20A ckt will run a couple of 1000-watt subs.
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post #28 of 54
11/13/12 at 6:00am
Thread Starter 
LeBon- thanks for taking time to post to the thread. I know you're busy trying to take over the world and all ;-))

I don't think the size of the room will require a lot of wattage, but you never know....I might one day desire a system that will "blow womens' clothes off". Or just go for overkill.
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post #29 of 54
11/13/12 at 5:24pm
Narf!

Well, Outlaw has a cool 7 x 300 watt amp that requires two 15 A outlets.
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post #30 of 54
11/20/12 at 12:47pm
Thread Starter 
Dennis Erskine mentioned in his post above that the window in my room will act as a bass trap; if I insulate+plywood+green glue+drywall the opening, would this eliminate the trap?
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