Let's talk tweeters - RAAL Ribbon, Ribbon, Dome (various types) and Ring, differences? (Polk,...

Personally I wouldnt worry to much about what type of tweeter you have, the more important thing is to get the speaker that is the best to your ears. Now if that speaker has a Soft Dome, Metal Dome, Inverted Metal Dome, Ribbon, Ring Radiator, etc. and you love the speaker, thats all that matters. So buy what you like the most.

I cannot compare the specific models you just mentioned as I have not listened to both of them.

I did, however, spend about 6 hours this weekend with the Salk SS8RT and ST-RT with the Raal. As a result of that experience: I just pulled the trigger on what will be my first pair of Salk speakers (with the RAAL tweeter) not 30 minutes ago.

To be honest: it was not the highs that most impressed me during that listening experience; but I am used to very HQ HF. There were moments in two instrumental songs where the sound became a little shrill; but it is entirely possible that the actual instrument would have had the same effect live.

In the end: I can say that my experience was extremely positive with the RAAL in a Salk speaker. I am sensitive to HF breakup when it happens, but have no case where I can say it did.

I would recommend you to take a look at the Ascend Acoustic Sierra Towers with RAAL, those are Amazing speakers for the price!!!

I'd be more concerned about how well the tweeter is integrated with the rest of the system. Horn, dome, cone, ribbon, electrostatic, etc, can all sound good individually but it's system integration that matters to me.

Fo example, I always had a problem with the sound of Martin Logan speakers I heard. The hybrid design of electrostat mid/highs with conventional cone woofer sounds disjointed to me. The woofers seem to never keep pace with the electrostats while the electrostats sound strained when the music got dynamic.
I don't fault the individual components. To my ears they just don't integrate very well.

True; and there's a lot involved in that besides speaker type (crossover design, cabinet refraction, etc).

Again: I was so impressed with the Salk's performance that I have ordered a pair. I would not have done that if I felt something as basic as driver integration were lacking.

It was my impression the Jim Salk focuses on a few drivers (which change over time) that he feels he can get the best overall results with. He seems to be moving to the RAAL tweeter on all his upgraded gear.

+1

Crossover design and how the tweeter is "blended" with the rest of the system (mids,woofers) is more important IMO than what type of tweeter. For example the RAAL is an awesome tweeter (from others accounts) but if the crossover isn't designed right or isnt integrated with the rest of the system it could sound pretty bad. Currently i'm enjoying the planar tweeters in the Arx speakers, especially the A5, although they are well below you budget, but great sounding tweeter none the less.

I agree and add the horizon as center all speakers are made from bamboo LCR all 3 for less than $4500 delivered. Check out the website and call the owner.
Chris

The matching center for the Sierra Towers with RAAL is the Sierra Tower Center with RAAL (Sierra Horizon). It's $998 + $350 for the RAAL Upgrade

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SRTC1&Category_Code=LSPK-1CH

You can see the Sierra Tower Center picture here: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=39915

This is a little of an apples to oranges comparison. The T2 is a five driver 3-way loudspeaker. The Salk SCST is a two way TL speaker. They are surely going to sound differently for a variety of reasons. But speaking just about the tweeters, IMHO the RAAL is THE superior HF driver made today. So if you're just looking for tweeter performance (as well as top-flight integration), there is but one choice for me. It's a common preference, btw. The FR of the Salk is razor flat across its frequency range...so "fullness" of the midrange is perhaps a relative (to you) sound. It could have been a function of the different listening rooms' sizes and acoustics, drive gear, speakers you're used to hearing, 2-way vs. 3-way speakers, etc . I haven't been able to find an FR graph, or much else performance-wise on the T2, so I can't comment.

Good luck in your search.

I don't think Home Theater does any rigorous testing of the equipment they review. Isn't it just an "I listened to this and it sounds great with its buttery midrange......"? I would not trust those kinds of 'reviews'. I have heard other PSB models and was not impressed. Perhaps the T2 is a cut above those I heard.

Regarding 2-way vs. 3-way, it has been my experience that generally (!...not a universal) a good 3-way is more congested in the crossover frequencies than a good 2-way. It's easier to integrate two drivers than it is three while delivering clean sound to the listener (considering crossover peculiarities, comb filtering effects, baffle step issues, etc.) All that said...I'm like you, and I really like a 3 way for HT applications...and probably music, as well. But that would be because of bass response and extention more than midrange production. (Remember that most tweeters cross pretty low, actually...around 2500-3000 Hz.) If you're going to use a subwoofer, I would still suggest a 2-way for you. It's really hard to beat the Salk products here in your price range.

For a 3-way, Ascend may well be the answer for you. I liked the presentation of their Sierra 1 bookshelf. They have a decent return policy, I believe. You could audition them where they belong...in your home. If you don't like them...send 'em back.

Best regards,

Mud

^ This. Drivers are just drivers without a proper crossover design. It's all about the crossover.

Ok.

First of all, the comments below come with all of the usual caveats. Sound is subjective, so YMMV. Also, there are always exceptions to each rule. That said, here we go.

Soft Dome (Fabric, Polys, etc) - Tend to have a smoother (read: kinder gentler) treble. Also, they tend to roll off fairly early. So you give up some treble extension. However, when they reach their limits, they tend to compress rather than break up harshly. For that reason, many audiophiles prefer their sound characteristics.

Metal Dome - Tend to have more 'sparkle' and high end extension, but it comes at a cost. Metal dome tweeters tend to sound a little bright and forward. And as they start to reach their limits, the breakup can be pretty edgy and harsh.

Ribbons (Including several variant technologies, such as air motion drivers) - The strength of this design is VERY extended high frequencies but without the metal dome penalty of brightness and edgy breakup. Think of them as the best of both worlds - the extension of metal domes and smoothness of soft domes. However, as you can imagine they are VERY revealing. If the source recording had hot and spitty treble, you will get hot and spitty treble. Input = output - generally speaking. The negative? (You just KNEW there had to be one...right?) Their dispersion pattern tends to be quite restricted. In many of these drivers, the off axis response is down by 10db or more. Of course, the latest versions of these drivers are greatly improved in this regard. But the issue still persists to a lesser degree.

Ring Radiators - Ring tweeters are a very complex design. They contain at least nine critical elements, each one of which contributes to it's sonic signature in some significant way. And , since it's the most mechanically complex, it tends to be the most expensive to manufacture. Unlike a conventional dome where the actual dome itself generates the vibration, the suspension of the dome in a ring tweeter becomes the major sound producing element - hence the term 'ring radiator'. Basically, it's like a very high tech and sophisticated version of the old 'whizzer cone' tweeters of the 50's and 60's. in fact, the developers at Vifa credit the whizzer as the major design inspiration behind ring radiators. These tweeters are noted for their smoothness and extension. So, like the ribbon tweeters, they have a very extended high frequency response without the harsh or hot sound of metal domes. But, also like ribbons, they have directivity issues when compared to standard dome tweeters. Only the more expensive high end ring tweeters overcome this tendency toward 'beaming' that plagues the less expensive designs. So usually the better performing ring tweeters tend to be found in more expensive speakers.

Hope this helps.

P.S. In my personal opinion, ribbon tweeters offer the best real world high frequency performance - albeit with the trade off of a narrower sweet spot for critical listening. And, again in my opinion, the RAAL used in the Salk and Ascend and other systems is the current best-of-breed. Those who complain of ribbon "brightness" are either dealing with bright, hot or harsh sounding program material or else they are pushing the driver beyond it's physical limits into clipping. Outside of that, ribbons offer some of the finest and smoothest high frequency performance available in modern speaker systems.
Edited by AudioFyle - 11/2/12 at 8:20am

+1 ^

Nicely described!

Audiofyle
That is an excellent description.
Thank you
Chris

Yes I agree, after owning soft domes (fabric/silk) and metal domes, after owning planar ribbons I don't think I could every go back to a dome tweeter. Although its possible, but i've been extremely pleased with ribbon/planars more so than I have with domes in the past. I feel that the planars do offer a more natural smooth sound compared to the domes i've heard.

I prefer metal dome tweeters myself but find that the ones composed of Beryllium sound just right. They have all the extension but none of the harshness. I have experienced this with the Paradigm S1s I have and also the Focal Electra Be towers I heard a few weeks back.

Can anyone confirm that RAAL 70-20XR ribbon tweeter that ascend acoustics uses has overcome the narrow sweet spot of most ribbons? The way they describe it, it seems to have great dispersion, or off axis performance, if I'm using the right words. Sorry if my terminology is off. I'm not a speaker scientist. The words they used were "accurate off-axis response free of bloom".

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/Ascend%20Sierra%20Ribbon%20Tower.pdf

As the measurements show, it has excellent horizontal off-axis response. The sweet spot is not narrow by any means.

There has been a rash of spam posts there lately, so I think there is a delay in confirming registrations to weed those types out.

Well, as I said in my original reply, in my opinion the RAAL ribbons are the current best-of-breed. These drivers have addressed many of the dispersion issues. However, while the current iteration of the RAAL tweeters have significantly improved vertical dispersion, horizontal dispersion still remains problematic.

Also, the 70-20XR is not their flagship driver. The 70-10 is. It can handle peak SPLs that would blow other ribbons out of the gap. That said, the 70-20XR is still a very fine driver.

Well, we can agree that the RAAL's are excellent drivers. But I just don't know what you're basing your additional comments on. First of all, horizontal dispersion is a function of the width of the driving element, unless the driver is horn-loaded, which the RAAL's are not. All of the RAAL's have superb off-axis dispersion horizontally, as do just about all other ribbons. SNAG-020.png 15k .png file I have attached measurements of a speaker system using the 10 mm RAAL, one taken on axis, one at 40 degrees off axis horizontally, and the last at 90 degrees--that means the mic was placed at a right angle to the front baffle. That's about as far off axis as you can get. At that extreme angle, the RAAL is down only a little over 5 dB referenced to the on-axis respon SNAG-027.png 17k .png file SNAG-029.png 17k .png file se. The OEM 20 mm version won't do quite that well, because it's wider. But it will do as well as a 3/4" dome tweeter, and that's significantly better than the majority of commercial speakers, which use 1" domes. Second, the 10mm RAAL is not the "flagship" member of the RAAL family. It is, in fact, the least expensive, and requires the highest crossover point.

I agree with everything Dennis posted... The RAAL ribbons have superb horizontal dispersion. Vertical dispersion is more limited then a dome but this can be quite beneficial for a loudspeaker that will be used at or near ear-level as high frequency reflections off the floor and ceiling will be greatly reduced -- thus you hear more direct sound and less of the environment. It is not only that horizontal dispersion is "wide" -- but it is extremely linear with a gentle and consistent roll off, which is ideal.

Bloom looks something like this and is typical with a dome



Look at the relative increase in energy in the 2.5 kHz - 5.5 kHz range.

As compared to the polar response of our RAAL equipped tower



Each line across the graphs represents the frequency response at 5 degrees off-axis, from 0 degrees to a full 90 degrees off-axis. The polar response of the Sierra Tower with RAAL is exceptional. Note: our polar response only shows one direction as compared to the graph from Stereophile. The reason for this is that the Sierra Tower has a horizontally symmetrical driver arrangement and off-axis to the right will look the exact same as off-axis to the left. By only displaying one direction, we are able to get a closer look at each individual off-axis response.


Have you been able to post? Have I responded?


You said it, I can't believe how many spammer registrations we have been getting recently. Most are now coming from a .NZ domain, whatever that means


Dennis is correct. The 70-20XR is actually RAAL's flagship 70mm length ribbon. It is more expensive than the 70-10 and is only available to OEM's. We chose it because it can be crossed lower and has superior dynamics and power handling below 4kHz, as well as a flatter response not requiring the use of the acoustic foam pads. Think about it for a minute, the 70-10 is 70mm high x 10mm wide while the 70x20 is 70mm high x 20mm wide (twice the radiating area) That said, these are exceptional tweeters and simply the finest I have ever had the pleasure of working with. I am also equally impressed in the consistency from one unit to another - and from production batch to production batch.

We have also only had one tweeter fail in a customer’s home and after examination, we found that a small metal fragment slipped thought the protective screen and creased the ribbon.

As I am sure Dennis will agree, these tweeters are not hype – I had my own doubts until I evaluated them, these are the real deal guys…