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Let's talk tweeters - RAAL Ribbon, Ribbon, Dome (various types) and Ring, differences? (Polk,... - Page 2

post #31 of 59
I have been very much enjoying some R630 speakers from Newform Research with their 30" tall ribbons.
post #32 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

I agree with everything Dennis posted... The RAAL ribbons have superb horizontal dispersion. Vertical dispersion is more limited then a dome but this can be quite beneficial for a loudspeaker that will be used at or near ear-level as high frequency reflections off the floor and ceiling will be greatly reduced -- thus you hear more direct sound and less of the environment. It is not only that horizontal dispersion is "wide" -- but it is extremely linear with a gentle and consistent roll off, which is ideal.

Bloom looks something like this and is typical with a dome

Look at the relative increase in energy in the 2.5 kHz - 5.5 kHz range.
As compared to the polar response of our RAAL equipped tower

Each line across the graphs represents the frequency response at 5 degrees off-axis, from 0 degrees to a full 90 degrees off-axis. The polar response of the Sierra Tower with RAAL is exceptional. Note: our polar response only shows one direction as compared to the graph from Stereophile. The reason for this is that the Sierra Tower has a horizontally symmetrical driver arrangement and off-axis to the right will look the exact same as off-axis to the left. By only displaying one direction, we are able to get a closer look at each individual off-axis response.
Have you been able to post? Have I responded?
You said it, I can't believe how many spammer registrations we have been getting recently. Most are now coming from a .NZ domain, whatever that means frown.gif
Dennis is correct. The 70-20XR is actually RAAL's flagship 70mm length ribbon. It is more expensive than the 70-10 and is only available to OEM's. We chose it because it can be crossed lower and has superior dynamics and power handling below 4kHz, as well as a flatter response not requiring the use of the acoustic foam pads. Think about it for a minute, the 70-10 is 70mm high x 10mm wide while the 70x20 is 70mm high x 20mm wide (twice the radiating area) That said, these are exceptional tweeters and simply the finest I have ever had the pleasure of working with. I am also equally impressed in the consistency from one unit to another - and from production batch to production batch.
We have also only had one tweeter fail in a customer’s home and after examination, we found that a small metal fragment slipped thought the protective screen and creased the ribbon.
As I am sure Dennis will agree, these tweeters are not hype – I had my own doubts until I evaluated them, these are the real deal guys…
I did post and only had one response which didn't really tell me anything frown.gif
post #33 of 59
If I could afford them, I'd probably use RAAL ribbons in my DIY. As it is, I find the Eton ceramic/magnesium domes are my favorite tweeters.
post #34 of 59
Ok well if the majority says it's not an issue then I guess I'm happy. Looking forward to the new mod for my sierras!
post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

I did post and only had one response which didn't really tell me anything frown.gif

I apologize for this, I will check our forum this evening and provide you with a response. Always best to email us directly as our forum is growing and it is getting tougher for me to see all the posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brannigan View Post

Ok well if the majority says it's not an issue then I guess I'm happy. Looking forward to the new mod for my sierras!

I think what both Dennis and I are explaining is that horizontal dispersion for these ribbons is better then a dome smile.gif
post #36 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

I apologize for this, I will check our forum this evening and provide you with a response. Always best to email us directly as our forum is growing and it is getting tougher for me to see all the posts.
I think what both Dennis and I are explaining is that horizontal dispersion for these ribbons is better then a dome smile.gif
I go by OUGrad05 on there smile.gif
post #37 of 59
Nice! So how does the vertical dispersion compare to the standard sierra tweeter? Can you tell me in laymans terms like say, a 70 degree cone instead of 90 degrees or something like that? Or maybe a percentage less coverage than the basic sierra tweeter? Is there any situation where this would be a drawback? Thanks Dave!
post #38 of 59
Sorry guys. I completely screwed up in my last post. It was late here and I plead exhaustion. :-) It should have read: "these drivers have addressed many of the dispersion issues...the current iteration of the RAAL tweeters have significantly improved HORIZONTAL dispersion...VERTICAL dispersion still remains problematic". I have NO idea why I reversed it. Again, it had been a LONG day for me and I was very tired. When I logged on to the forum after work this afternoon and re-read my post, I had a genuine DOH! moment.

Also, to be fair, I have not heard the RAAL in the Ascend tower...I actually heard it in a Salk Verity. And the listening session was at an audio show. So it was admittedly not the best environment for critical listening. Nevertheless, I thought it sounded excellent. I think you guys may be taking my comments the wrong way. As I stated above, in my opinion ribbons offer some of the finest and smoothest high frequency performance available in modern speaker systems. I have loved ribbons for a very long time. I liked what I heard from VMPS many years ago, and those ribbon tweeters weren't even in the same league with the RAALs. In fact, I owned a pair of the original Carver Amazing Loudspeakers way back in the day, and as difficult as they were to drive, I loved the sound of those speakers. I think it's quite safe to say, I am a ribbon fan boy. :-)

So Dennis and Dave, I completely agree with your posts. And I'm sorry for the confusion my post caused. I still can't figure out why I reversed the words. Your measurements only confirm what my ears heard when I listened to the Salks.

And thanks for the info about the 70-10 and 70-20. I was under the impression that the 70-10 was the higher end driver based on power handling and SPL specs...specs which are not available for the 70-20...at least not that I have been able to find.
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioFyle View Post

Sorry guys. I completely screwed up in my last post. It was late here and I plead exhaustion. :-) It should have read: "these drivers have addressed many of the dispersion issues...the current iteration of the RAAL tweeters have significantly improved HORIZONTAL dispersion...VERTICAL dispersion still remains problematic". I have NO idea why I reversed it. Again, it had been a LONG day for me and I was very tired. When I logged on to the forum after work this afternoon and re-read my post, I had a genuine DOH! moment.
Also, to be fair, I have not heard the RAAL in the Ascend tower...I actually heard it in a Salk Verity. And the listening session was at an audio show. So it was admittedly not the best environment for critical listening. Nevertheless, I thought it sounded excellent. I think you guys may be taking my comments the wrong way. As I stated above, in my opinion ribbons offer some of the finest and smoothest high frequency performance available in modern speaker systems. I have loved ribbons for a very long time. I liked what I heard from VMPS many years ago, and those ribbon tweeters weren't even in the same league with the RAALs. In fact, I owned a pair of the original Carver Amazing Loudspeakers way back in the day, and as difficult as they were to drive, I loved the sound of those speakers. I think it's quite safe to say, I am a ribbon fan boy. :-)
So Dennis and Dave, I completely agree with your posts. And I'm sorry for the confusion my post caused. I still can't figure out why I reversed the words. Your measurements only confirm what my ears heard when I listened to the Salks.
And thanks for the info about the 70-10 and 70-20. I was under the impression that the 70-10 was the higher end driver based on power handling and SPL specs...specs which are not available for the 70-20...at least not that I have been able to find.


No problem. I was kind of wondering whether you meant to say that. As for vertical dispersion, it should be noted that the diffuser pads that come with the 10 are designed to address that issue. They effectively shorten the height of the ribbon and improve vertical dispersion above 10k to the point where there really isn't any difference betwen the ribbon and a 1"dome. And you can adjust the level of the highs over a wide dB range by moving them closer together.
post #40 of 59
Sorry if I have missed the answer, as I did not have time to read through the entire thread. Is RAAL a BRAND of a ribbon tweeter or a TYPE of ribbon tweeter? Does anyone know how the RAAL ribbon compares for instance with the ribbon used in the Monitor Audio Gold GX series?
post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Sorry if I have missed the answer, as I did not have time to read through the entire thread. Is RAAL a BRAND of a ribbon tweeter or a TYPE of ribbon tweeter? Does anyone know how the RAAL ribbon compares for instance with the ribbon used in the Monitor Audio Gold GX series?
It is a brand with proprietary technology.

http://www.raalribbon.com/products.htm

How it compares to what MA uses, I don't know.
post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Sorry if I have missed the answer, as I did not have time to read through the entire thread. Is RAAL a BRAND of a ribbon tweeter or a TYPE of ribbon tweeter?

RAAL is a brand of ribbon tweeters based out of Serbia.

http://www.raalribbon.com/index.htm
post #43 of 59
Thanks for the quick responses. I wonder how do they compare quality wise to the MA GX series. The major high end speaker manufacturers build their own proprietary version of ribbon tweeters, correct? I know that Ascend, Salk, and a few smaller scale speaker manufacturers use them, but I have not seen them used by the major ones?
post #44 of 59
Super bump.

What ribbon speakers are there to check out under $2000/pair?
post #45 of 59
Selahaudio.com
post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Super bump.

What ribbon speakers are there to check out under $2000/pair?

Only ones I know of would be the Ascend Sierra Towers (slightly over), Martin Logan Motions, Arx, and HTD. Kit form the Selah has a few.
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Only ones I know of would be the Ascend Sierra Towers (slightly over), Martin Logan Motions, Arx, and HTD. Kit form the Selah has a few.
The Ascend Sierra Tower with the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter is about $2700-$2800/pr. Ascend will customize the Sierra-1(bookshelf) to use the same tweeter for an additional $800/pr above the regular price (it is not a standard offering), so the total would be around $1600-$1700/pr.

Also keep in mind that the term "ribbon tweeter" is pretty generic nowadays. The RAAL tweeter is a much different animal when compared to the tweeter in the ARX's or HTD's. in how it works.
Edited by cschang - 5/2/13 at 9:44am
post #48 of 59
I recently sold my Paragon Volent VL2 speakers with the twin ribbon tweeter. The high end and detail were really quite remarkable. However, they just did not throw a soundstage into the room, something I really wanted. the image was restricted to in between the speakers. You can pick them up used for around $2k and they may float your boat.

what has been floating my boat recently is the pair of Gallo Ref 3.5 that I recently purchased. They use the CDT tweeter with excellent dispersion. These speaker really disappear and throw a huge, wall to wall soundstage into the room. They are on clearance now, as are the Stradas. The stradas are a nice deal at 50% off or $499.00 per speaker. You would be able to set up three across the front and have funds left over to put in a nice pair of subwoofers if you liked. I am very happy with my Gallos and recommend them highly.
post #49 of 59
If you are moving about the room alot with music on then a ribbon definitely will not be able to "fill the room" like a dome can, simply due to the vertical dispersion issue. It's really a quality vs sweet spot size debate.
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

If you are moving about the room alot with music on then a ribbon definitely will not be able to "fill the room" like a dome can, simply due to the vertical dispersion issue. It's really a quality vs sweet spot size debate.
I'm not so sure of making it a blanket statement. I haven't found those to be issues with some of the ribbons I have heard. I really think it depends on the ribbon itself. Like everything, some are better, some are worse. Then of course there is the room. itself.
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I'm not so sure of making it a blanket statement. I haven't found those to be issues with some of the ribbons I have heard. I really think it depends on the ribbon itself. Like everything, some are better, some are worse. Then of course there is the room. itself.
Agreed
post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

If you are moving about the room alot with music on then a ribbon definitely will not be able to "fill the room" like a dome can, simply due to the vertical dispersion issue. It's really a quality vs sweet spot size debate.

No issues with the Arx planar ribbon, it fills the room just fine with claims from reviewers listening to the A1b as have a huge wide soundstage and that was being compared against a nice dome tweeter speaker(s). Some ribbon/planars sound bad, shrill, small sweet spot, ect and some domes are pretty crappy too, ringing, shrill, bright, ect...

Its all in the system design, crossover and driver intergation and designers end goal of what they want. Not the type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The Ascend Sierra Tower with the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter is about $2700-$2800/pr. Ascend will customize the Sierra-1(bookshelf) to use the same tweeter for an additional $800/pr above the regular price (it is not a standard offering), so the total would be around $1600-$1700/pr.

Also keep in mind that the term "ribbon tweeter" is pretty generic nowadays. The RAAL tweeter is a much different animal when compared to the tweeter in the ARX's or HTD's. in how it works.

Yeah forgot about the additional upgrade charge for the ribbon.

HTD uses a "real ribbon" although its not on the same level as the RAAL and the Arx uses a planar which is alittle different than RAAL, Beston ect type ribbons.
post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

HTD uses a "real ribbon" although its not on the same level as the RAAL and the Arx uses a planar which is alittle different than RAAL, Beston ect type ribbons.
Do you know what defines a "real ribbon".

Do you know the differences between the RAAL, ARX, and HTD. Characterizing it as "alittle" different is completely misleading.
post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Do you know what defines a "real ribbon".
Just a guess: but I suspect he is differentiating it from an AMT , which many will refer to as a "ribbon".
post #55 of 59
Hi Jerry....Dave touched upon this very subject the other day over at the Ascend forum...self explanatory if you ask me.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?4630-The-Tower-Discussion-Thread!&p=44091#post44091
post #56 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Do you know what defines a "real ribbon".

Do you know the differences between the RAAL, ARX, and HTD. Characterizing it as "alittle" different is completely misleading.

OK you tell me exactly what the differences are since you think i'm misleading. I'm not talking about AMT tweeters i'm talking HTDs ribbon, Arx Planars and the RAAL are all very similar in design, all use a suspended material in a magnetic field and theres not squeezing air like a AMT. The RAAL uses a metal type foil where as planars use kind of the same basic design without needing a transformer but uses a plastic like foil.

All of these are very similar ribbons/planars.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-735
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=277-110
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-871
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=275-085
post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post


Just a guess: but I suspect he is differentiating it from an AMT , which many will refer to as a "ribbon".
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

OK you tell me exactly what the differences are since you think i'm misleading. I'm not talking about AMT tweeters i'm talking HTDs ribbon, Arx Planars and the RAAL are all very similar in design, all use a suspended material in a magnetic field and theres not squeezing air like a AMT. The RAAL uses a metal type foil where as planars use kind of the same basic design without needing a transformer but uses a plastic like foil.

All of these are very similar ribbons/planars.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-735
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=277-110
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-871
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=275-085

The only moving mass on a RAAL is the ribbon.

On the HTD and ARX, the ribbon is imprinted with the "voice coil"....like the AMT.

Two VERY different implementations.

Wrong...all but the Tang Bang, are similar to each other.

That Tang Bang, I don't believe has the "voice coil" on the ribbon.
Edited by cschang - 5/2/13 at 12:40pm
post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post


The only moving mass on a RAAL is the ribbon.

On the HTD and ARX, the ribbon is imprinted with the "voice coil"....like the AMT.

Two VERY different implementations.

And a AMT is VERY different from the HTD and ARX tweeters, theres not folds or squeezing of air like an AMT does.
post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

And a AMT is VERY different from the HTD and ARX tweeters, theres not folds or squeezing of air like an AMT does.
Fair enough.

BTW...in the BG description, they use the wording "an etched planar aluminum conductor" in lieu of "voice coil".
Edited by cschang - 5/2/13 at 12:56pm
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