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Anyone prefer 100hz crossovers? - Page 4

post #91 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post

Yes I read that post it was very well thought out, I admit the first part I didn't completely follow as I've never built my own speakers so don't understand all the numbers. But I got your general idea which was the smaller the speaker the more distortion at lower frequencies correct?

Right.
Quote:
Do you know roughly at what frequency this starts occurring for say 5 1/4 drivers and 6 1/2"?

It depends on output level and program material.

At the listening levels I prefer (about 85dBC average for jazz) on acoustic recordings with good dynamic range the numbers might be 140-180Hz and 100-120Hz respectively using even order cross-overs at those points and about 250 and 170 run full-range.
Edited by Drew Eckhardt - 11/29/12 at 3:24pm
post #92 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post

Right.
It depends on output level and program material.
At the listening levels I prefer (about 85dBC average for jazz) on acoustic recordings with good dynamic range the numbers might be 140-180Hz and 100-120Hz respectively using even order cross-overs at those points and about 250 and 170 run full-range.

Wow that's higher than I think most people would expect but it is consistent with what I've experienced from my previous speakers with 5 1/4 drivers and my current ones with 6 1/2's. So if you don't mind me asking what do you do about this, do you use speakers that can handle the lower frequencies without distorting or do you crossover to a sub? My current sub is pretty bad but when I get a nice one hopefully soon I will definitely experiment with higher crossover points.
post #93 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Bandwidth is 45 to 120 Hz per Geddes

http://www.gedlee.com/Subs.htm

Anechoic, yes. But because below cutoff they're monopoles (just like any closed box) they have enough output to excite modes below 45Hz, though. Dr. Geddes has mentioned EQ'ing them below cutoff in the past.

Also, you should read some of the more recent exchanges on diyaudio.com between Dr. Geddes and Dr. Krevosky ("john k") about bass in rooms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Note that ULF bass on AVS is defined as bass below 20 Hz.

OK, whatever (a smarter definition would be "frequency range where room modes are so sparse that placement no longer works to materially smooth out response"). I'm stillnot sure how that's relevant here, unless one defines "subwoofer" as "device that plays just below 20Hz."
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If you don't know and care about how movies sound, then you don't care about defects in Geddes bass routing schemes.

What are the theoretical defects of his approach, and why would they matter for facsimiles of synthesized impressions of fake events, but not for, say, a the multichannel SACD of Dark Side of the Moon, or the multichannel DVD-A of R.E.M.'s Green, or the Blu-Ray of Radiohead's "The King of Limbs: Live from the Basement" show?
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I would not "crossover" to a subwoofer in the 40-50 Hz area or run my mains as large if I did not have 3 way speakers.

Why not? If the midrange is big enough, it won't move appreciably. I ran 12" concentric drivers full-range for years. They were in closed boxes, and between the air-spring and their very high impedance at ULF their cone motion was well controlled even when I watched the Black Hawk Down Blu-Ray on that system. (I don't find myself watching a movie more than once, which is why I no longer buy them. And repeatedly re-watching scenes of a bunch of soldiers running out to board helicopters...not my thing.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I do have an NHT Evolution system that I have not setup yet that is simiar to what you have described. Evolution 3-way mains crossed to Evolution 12" subwoofers (4 total) that the R & L speakers can sit on if I choose to set them up that way. That setup depends on the room's FR in the bass region, so the location of the 12" subwoofers is up in the air.

Hmm, fairly small closed boxes with 5.5" moderate-throw woofers (IIRC, OEM variants of the Peerless CSX145), IMO you'll probably want a highpass on them, because they're a little light on volume displacement. Two of them barely out displace an equivalent single 7" woofer (Two 5.5" Peerless CSX midwoofers displace about [edit] 165cc. [/edi] The 7" woofer in that line displaces about 20cc less. A good 8" midbass will displace closer over 300cc.) [/edit]

[previous numbers listed used the wrong value for xmax; I accidentally plugged in voicecoil diameter for voicecoil height in my erroneous earlier "calculations." Guesstimations is perhaps a better word.]

But never know until you try it. If your room is fairly small and the speakers are close to the front wall, it may work just fine.

Also, four 12's sounds like a lot of sub for those mains to me, but maybe it's not if movies are the system's primary source material. You're also lucky to have freedom to place the subs based on measurements. I'm generally more concerned about how my home looks, so subs end up going where they can be easily concealed.

Lastly, if you want two of NHT's A1 monoblocs for those Evo subs...I happen to know of two sitting idle in their boxes, thanks to this glorious beast.. smile.gif
Edited by DS-21 - 11/29/12 at 10:16pm
post #94 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post

Wow that's higher than I think most people would expect but it is consistent with what I've experienced from my previous speakers with 5 1/4 drivers and my current ones with 6 1/2's. So if you don't mind me asking what do you do about this, do you use speakers that can handle the lower frequencies without distorting or do you crossover to a sub? My current sub is pretty bad but when I get a nice one hopefully soon I will definitely experiment with higher crossover points.

Each of my main speakers has one 8.5" mid-bass and a pair of 10" sub-woofers in the same cabinet with a 120Hz 4th order cross-over.

They're dipoles so the physics are a little different. The mid-bass limits match the same driver in a box at 240Hz but only do as well as a 7" driver at the 120Hz cross-over. The sub-woofers match one box mounted 10" sub-woofer per side at 80Hz (two total) and do half as well at 40Hz where all four only collectively match one 10" sub and are down to half that by 20Hz.

They run full-range for music (even "bass heavy" music like rap has little energy in the last octave) but I cross to a 15" sub-woofer for home theater.

The bedroom system is smaller with one 5.25" mid-bass driver per side crossed fourth order at 100Hz to stereo 10" sub-woofers. The midrange drivers get strained at reasonable critical listening levels (but are much more usable than when run full-range) although when we play music there it's probably close to bedtime when quiet is nice so that's not too big a deal. I've been meaning to upgrade to 6" midrange drivers although it's low on my priority list.
post #95 of 143
Definitely one of the topics that's not aired enough!

I'm running fronts that are made for being crossed at 80 Hz (but they do quite repectable full range) - they're 2½ way speakers with two 8.8" boomers. (If max 125dB@100Hz isn't enough, or you sit very far from them, the bigger brother uses four instead )
post #96 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Totally agree with you there, Arnold!
I've seen a few cases where people with very capable subs have gone up to both 100 and 120Hz to reduce the demands on the top speakers due to listening to music that puts a lot of effect just above the normal 80Hz crossover.
If I remember correctly, Tremtemöller - "Vamp" was one of the tracks these guys used to torment poor speaker systems at loud levels.Here's an analysis of the track:
That is a great track to stress test a system.
The MasVis looks like a neat piece of software. I will give it a try.
post #97 of 143
It's not such a bad piece of music either if you've got a wide taste in music.

Do that, it's good if it spreads. The reason behind it was as another means to help stop the compression madness on music nowadays - a simple way for everyone to analyse music. It's a teacher at the Royal Tech in Stockholm who made it. Sound like you aleady found it, if not I'll go find a link for you.
post #98 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

It's not such a bad piece of music either if you've got a wide taste in music.
yes, I like the whole album actually. cannot say the same about "Into the Great Wide Yonder"
post #99 of 143
The YPAO room eq. in my Yamaha RX-A1000 consistently selects a 200Hz crossover for the subs, which seems a little high. I found (both measurements and careful listening) that 110-120 seems to be the best compromise for my system ATM.
post #100 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Bandwidth is 45 to 120 Hz per Geddes

http://www.gedlee.com/Subs.htm

Anechoic, yes. But because below cutoff they're monopoles (just like any closed box) they have enough output to excite modes below 45Hz, though. Dr. Geddes has mentioned EQ'ing them below cutoff in the past.

Also, you should read some of the more recent exchanges on diyaudio.com between Dr. Geddes and Dr. Krevosky ("john k") about bass in rooms.


Geddes is still weak on details on what he does in his own room. He does discuss what you should do (AKA what he is selling) and is very vague on how to get from here to there. Try to get the ballpark high and low frequency limits of the band pass subwoofers that he uses in a room.

I do enjoy reading those Geddes postings.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Note that ULF bass on AVS is defined as bass below 20 Hz.

OK, whatever (a smarter definition would be "frequency range where room modes are so sparse that placement no longer works to materially smooth out response"). I'm still not sure how that's relevant here, unless one defines "subwoofer" as "device that plays just below 20Hz."


I think that I have spent too much time on the bass in movies with charts thread. The majority opinion on that thread define ULF as Infra or sub 20 Hz content.

Here are some more basic definitions of bass that I like to use. For example, my JPC MBM is located near the seating area and covers (AKA overlaps) mid and upper bass (about 80 to 160 Hz).







Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If you don't know and care about how movies sound, then you don't care about defects in Geddes bass routing schemes.

What are the theoretical defects of his approach, and why would they matter for facsimiles of synthesized impressions of fake events, but not for, say, a the multichannel SACD of Dark Side of the Moon, or the multichannel DVD-A of R.E.M.'s Green, or the Blu-Ray of Radiohead's "The King of Limbs: Live from the Basement" show?


Do you really know what Geddes is doing in his own room? How many speakers are set to large in his AVR, and how many are set to small? Where are those main speakers located in his room? What specific bass does Geddes route to his subwoofer(s), and how does he mix those signals? Does the bass plus mode work the same way for every AVR? For that matter does anyone really know how to use the bass plus mode?

I have looked at what Marcus posted for his Geddes evaluation, but he does not use the Geddes method these days. For that matter, I am not quite sure what you do either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I would not "crossover" to a subwoofer in the 40-50 Hz area or run my mains as large if I did not have 3 way speakers.

Why not? If the midrange is big enough, it won't move appreciably. I ran 12" concentric drivers full-range for years. They were in closed boxes, and between the air-spring and their very high impedance at ULF their cone motion was well controlled even when I watched the Black Hawk Down Blu-Ray on that system. (I don't find myself watching a movie more than once, which is why I no longer buy them. And repeatedly re-watching scenes of a bunch of soldiers running out to board helicopters...not my thing.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I do have an NHT Evolution system that I have not setup yet that is simiar to what you have described. Evolution 3-way mains crossed to Evolution 12" subwoofers (4 total) that the R & L speakers can sit on if I choose to set them up that way. That setup depends on the room's FR in the bass region, so the location of the 12" subwoofers is up in the air.

Hmm, fairly small closed boxes with 5.5" moderate-throw woofers (IIRC, OEM variants of the Peerless CSX145), IMO you'll probably want a highpass on them, because they're a little light on volume displacement. Two of them barely out displace an equivalent single 7" woofer (Two 5.5" Peerless CSX midwoofers displace about [edit] 165cc. [/edi] The 7" woofer in that line displaces about 20cc less. A good 8" midbass will displace closer over 300cc.) [/edit]

[previous numbers listed used the wrong value for xmax; I accidentally plugged in voicecoil diameter for voicecoil height in my erroneous earlier "calculations." Guesstimations is perhaps a better word.]

But never know until you try it. If your room is fairly small and the speakers are close to the front wall, it may work just fine.

Also, four 12's sounds like a lot of sub for those mains to me, but maybe it's not if movies are the system's primary source material. You're also lucky to have freedom to place the subs based on measurements. I'm generally more concerned about how my home looks, so subs end up going where they can be easily concealed.

Lastly, if you want two of NHT's A1 monoblocs for those Evo subs...I happen to know of two sitting idle in their boxes, thanks to this glorious beast.. smile.gif



Do you still run 12" concentrics these days? Most people use a two way with maybe a 6 1/2" driver plus a tweeter. I would not run those as large.

Four 12" subwoofer drivers are required per the NHT speaker designer. The reason for that is the NHT crossover's HP filter is being lowered from the factory settings. This modification requires twice as many drivers and twice as much power to perform well to below 20 Hz.

I bought 3 extra of the NHT A1 amplifiers for cheap when NHT discontinued them. In my new room I may use a pair of the NHT 2.9's mixed with the Evolution speakers (M5 and L5), so the A1 will power those NHT 2.9 speakers.

Also note that I do not use the all small bass management settings in my AVR. Displacement calculations for a single driver may be deceptive because you do no know how I route the bass in my system.
post #101 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I will try again though in the next few days with a higher crossover and make sure things are optimised for that higher crossover. I don't mind experimenting as it costs nothing and you only gain to benefit if you like the new setup. Will let you know how it goes.

Well I have spent the last few days with higher crossover points. Started off with 90hz as it gave a very flat response. Things did sound good as in clarity from the speakers and the flat bass up to at least 100hz before I started getting peaks and nulls in the FR. I had it like this for a couple of days thinking this wasn't too bad.

But I did get the sense that I was listening to a set of speakers and subs. I have a lot of live music recordings and somehow they didn't sound as real. To me it sounded more like I was listening to some speakers and subs rather than having the band in the room with you.

I dropped to a 80hz crossover at the expense of a slight dip in the FR and it helped a tiny bit to blend the bass between the subs and speakers. I still had the sense of I was listening to some speakers with subs though.

So last night I went back to a 60hz crossover at the expense of a bit more of a dip in the FR... but now the subs and speakers blend seamlessly in sharing bass duties as there is no sense that you are listening to the individual components of the system. It just sounds more enjoyable to me this way.

.
Edited by kiwi2 - 12/2/12 at 1:49pm
post #102 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I will try again though in the next few days with a higher crossover and make sure things are optimised for that higher crossover. I don't mind experimenting as it costs nothing and you only gain to benefit if you like the new setup. Will let you know how it goes.

Well I have spent the last few days with higher crossover points. Started off with 90hz as it gave a very flat response. Things did some good as in clarity from the speakers and the flat bass up to at least 100hz before I started getting peaks and nulls in the FR. I had it like this for a couple of days thinking this wasn't too bad.

But I did get the sense that I was listening to a set of speakers and subs. I have a lot of live music recordings and somehow they didn't sound as real. To me it sounded more like I was listening to some speakers and subs rather than having the band in the room with you.

I dropped to a 80hz crossover at the expense of a slight dip in the FR and it helped a tiny bit to blend the bass between the subs and speakers. I still had the sense of I was listening to some speakers with subs though.

So last night I went back to a 60hz crossover at the expense of a bit more of a dip in the FR... but now the subs and speakers blend seamlessly in sharing bass duties as there is no sense that you are listening to the individual components of the system. It just sounds more enjoyable to me this way.

 

I've sort of come to the same conclusion.  Higher crossover gives flatter response but lower crossover sounds wider, more open and enveloping.  So they both sound good but in their own way. 

post #103 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Well I have spent the last few days with higher crossover points. Started off with 90hz as it gave a very flat response. Things did sound good as in clarity from the speakers and the flat bass up to at least 100hz before I started getting peaks and nulls in the FR. I had it like this for a couple of days thinking this wasn't too bad.
But I did get the sense that I was listening to a set of speakers and subs. I have a lot of live music recordings and somehow they didn't sound as real. To me it sounded more like I was listening to some speakers and subs rather than having the band in the room with you.
I dropped to a 80hz crossover at the expense of a slight dip in the FR and it helped a tiny bit to blend the bass between the subs and speakers. I still had the sense of I was listening to some speakers with subs though.
So last night I went back to a 60hz crossover at the expense of a bit more of a dip in the FR... but now the subs and speakers blend seamlessly in sharing bass duties as there is no sense that you are listening to the individual components of the system. It just sounds more enjoyable to me this way.
.

What crossover slopes did you use?
post #104 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

What crossover slopes did you use?

I am just using a Yamaha AVR, so whatever slopes it uses.

This is what it looks like though when I measured the subs and speakers by themselves with the 80hz crossover.
post #105 of 143
The peak at ~140Hz from the subwoofer looks like it could be a problem, if it's not an artifact in this particular measurement.

Looks like a 1st order HP and and 3rd order LP if I'm not fumbling the graph. I prefer a sharper cutoff than that, the filter I'm using has a 5th order LP (-30dB/octave)

So, I'm not surprised about your findings, for those slopes you've probably found the ideal solution. smile.gif
Edited by Nightlord - 12/3/12 at 2:07am
post #106 of 143
At the end of the day, this is all a pointless battle of preferences. All that really matters is what sounds good to you in your home to your ears. Experiment and test and retest. My mains go down to 29 Hz so I have my avr set to small for all my speakers but crossover set to 40Hz. My 15 inch DIY sub is powered by a dedicated amplifier and is currently tuned to 18 Hz so for me it sounds great. What is important is that it sounds good to me. I find that I can go loud and clean with my setup and that is all that matters to me.
post #107 of 143
There are more angles to attack the problem from than that. If you want to maximize the use of your sub, then it is a corner placement we're talking about and it will receive good wall/floor support for all frequencies that a 1/8th wavelength is longer than the distance from the woofer to the boundary, which is about three inches shy of two feet at 80Hz, which shouldn't be a problem positioning a 15" within, if that was kept in mind at box design time.
To flatten out the room resonances, it is a good idea to excite the room from more than one location, both theory and practice points at "at least 4". Then you also benefit from having the distortion lowered and you gain some extra capability that you can use to boost the signal at ULF for great frequency extension (which also makes a case for multiple sealed boxes). That's a recipe based on physics and I know quite a few people that's happily gone down that route. But as discussed above, it might require a bit better crossovers than the standard AVRs to pull off a good transition. Not having to pump bass will only benefit the fronts capability (unless it already had a similar crossover point from it's bass driver).

Now, I do understand that a lot of people don't want to select gear by technical/physical aspects - for me it's been one hell of a shortcut compared to auditioning loads and loads of gear to slowly iterate towards the same goal.

I'm using 4x10" bass reflex subs for the tv room, 8x12" (NHT 1259) sealed subs for the livingroom stereo and 6x even more capable 12" subs for the theater. All crossed at 80Hz, only the small tv room system through an AVR and the latter two systems use infrasonic boost plugin-boards in the crossovers. My stereo mains are only -1dB down at 24Hz, so they're quite cabable when I flip to running them fullrange, but I do not have any drawbacks at all running them just from 80Hz and up. Quite easy to compare the difference with just a single switch to throw to compare - with some long cables to/from the crossover, you can have it with you in the listening position while setting levels, tuning Q, tuning infrasonic boost etc. smile.gif
post #108 of 143
I think a 90hz crossover sounds best with my Klipsch Reference speakers.
post #109 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post

Each of my main speakers has one 8.5" mid-bass and a pair of 10" sub-woofers in the same cabinet with a 120Hz 4th order cross-over.
They're dipoles so the physics are a little different. The mid-bass limits match the same driver in a box at 240Hz but only do as well as a 7" driver at the 120Hz cross-over. The sub-woofers match one box mounted 10" sub-woofer per side at 80Hz (two total) and do half as well at 40Hz where all four only collectively match one 10" sub and are down to half that by 20Hz.
They run full-range for music (even "bass heavy" music like rap has little energy in the last octave) but I cross to a 15" sub-woofer for home theater.
The bedroom system is smaller with one 5.25" mid-bass driver per side crossed fourth order at 100Hz to stereo 10" sub-woofers. The midrange drivers get strained at reasonable critical listening levels (but are much more usable than when run full-range) although when we play music there it's probably close to bedtime when quiet is nice so that's not too big a deal. I've been meaning to upgrade to 6" midrange drivers although it's low on my priority list.

Not sure if you're still following this post but nice setup, are you saying your subs are crosed over at 100hz by the speaker crossover to the subs or by the receiver. I assume they're run full range just wondering. Also I was curious about the numbers you cited earlier, I wasn't thinking before that they are for a single driver but how do multiple drivers affect the numbers?
post #110 of 143
A bit of an update that is kind of relevant to this thread...

Yesterday I experimented with different sub locations in my room and ended up with a setup that gave a reasonable measured FR with a 40hz crossover. My front speakers are rated down to 35hz so I thought I would run with the 40hz crossover to see how it sounded.

It sounds good! And I mean for the reasons I talked about previously in this thread. Soundstage is more dynamic with a fuller and more natural sound coming from the speakers.

It really leads me to believe that blanket recommendations for a 80hz crossover is not necessarily the best way to go if your speakers are capable of playing lower than that.
post #111 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

It sounds good! And I mean for the reasons I talked about previously in this thread. Soundstage is more dynamic with a fuller and more natural sound coming from the speakers.

It really leads me to believe that blanket recommendations for a 80hz crossover is not necessarily the best way to go if your speakers are capable of playing lower than that.

Good for you!

Generally the issues that come up from doing this is (at least) twofold:
1) Your main speakers will not be relieved of the bass duty, so you probably lose out on being able to play as loud (unless that limitation sits in tweeter anyway)
2) You will be radiating longer wavelengths from the main speaker position and these will be more likely to give interference issues from room boundaries than they would from a corner placed subwoofer where you could keep the reflexes say within a quarter wavelenths phaseshift from the direct signal.

If 1) is of no concern and 2) does not create acoustical issues in the room in question, then no need to worry about 80Hz.

People with very bass-intense music tastes might need to go the other way, say up to 125Hz to take more power load off the main speakers.
post #112 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post

It doesn't really sound like it I use Polk Monitor 60's for fronts which easily handle an 80hz crossover and a csi30 center channel rated down to 55hz. To me the voices out of the center channel crossed at 80hz just sound like they have too much low frequency in them, making male voices sound unnatural sometimes.

Here is an optimistic analysis of the bass dynamic range of 2x 5 1/4 speakers such as are found in the CSI30:

Freq,Hz Max SPL, DB

10 69
20 81
30 88
40 93
50 97
60 100
70 103
80 105
90 107
100 109
110 111
120 112
130 114
140 115
150 116
160 117
170 118
180 119
190 120
200 121

Their efficiency is a little above average.

If Polk slacked off a little on driver linear travel, or you push them hard, then you could be in trouble.

In order to overdrive them you have to be pushing them - into the 90-100 dB range which is really not that much.

As high end speakers I would expect them to be clean at outputs up to 110 dB, and that kind of duty suggests a 100-110 Hz crossover.

BTW this is an old thread! I went back and read some of the earlier posts. Many of the issues that came up here led me to develop my model (derivative of Linkwitz' work) of speaker maximum clean dynamic range.
Edited by arnyk - 3/8/13 at 4:35am
post #113 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

A bit of an update that is kind of relevant to this thread...

Yesterday I experimented with different sub locations in my room and ended up with a setup that gave a reasonable measured FR with a 40hz crossover. My front speakers are rated down to 35hz so I thought I would run with the 40hz crossover to see how it sounded.

It sounds good! And I mean for the reasons I talked about previously in this thread. Soundstage is more dynamic with a fuller and more natural sound coming from the speakers.

It really leads me to believe that blanket recommendations for a 80hz crossover is not necessarily the best way to go if your speakers are capable of playing lower than that.

If your measuring your frequency response it's hard to argue with what works best for your system. But a 40hz crossover is effectively full range for your speakers and I'd have to think it wouldn't sound as good at high volumes due to higher distortion. Since a crossover isn't a brickwall, for speakers with an f3 of 35hz I wouldn't cross them over any lower than 60hz and most likely would use an 80hz but that's just me. But I like to set my stuff up while cranking it as loud as it will ever go, basically to me my speakers sound good cranked up with a 100hz crossover and that's how I set them up. Of course at lower volumes a lower crossover sounds fine and isn't distorting anything but at 75-85 db I notice a difference.
post #114 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post

If your measuring your frequency response it's hard to argue with what works best for your system. But a 40hz crossover is effectively full range for your speakers and I'd have to think it wouldn't sound as good at high volumes due to higher distortion. Since a crossover isn't a brickwall, for speakers with an f3 of 35hz I wouldn't cross them over any lower than 60hz and most likely would use an 80hz but that's just me. But I like to set my stuff up while cranking it as loud as it will ever go, basically to me my speakers sound good cranked up with a 100hz crossover and that's how I set them up. Of course at lower volumes a lower crossover sounds fine and isn't distorting anything but at 75-85 db I notice a difference.

I agree with what you are saying and indeed I do notice the clarity and crispness with the higher crossovers at higher volumes. But then I find it sounds a bit too sterile and uninteresting at more typical moderate volume. It's like the body is missing from the speakers.

If I was going to use a 80 or 100hz crossover, then I may as well just brought myself small 4" satellite speakers.
post #115 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

If I was going to use a 80 or 100hz crossover, then I may as well just brought myself small 4" satellite speakers.

My cinema fronts are designed for 80Hz crossover and they feature two 8.8" woofer/boomers. Their bigger brother (which I cannot afford and I also would be sitting too close to) uses four. 4" won't give you the output you need.

Here's a nice pic of someones specimens of the bigger brother:
i56profy01fromleft.jpg
post #116 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I agree with what you are saying and indeed I do notice the clarity and crispness with the higher crossovers at higher volumes. But then I find it sounds a bit too sterile and uninteresting at more typical moderate volume. It's like the body is missing from the speakers.

If I was going to use a 80 or 100hz crossover, then I may as well just brought myself small 4" satellite speakers.

This topic is something I've recently revisited: I used to have a mix of PMC front speakers (transmission line bass reflex loading) and much smaller M&K K4 tripole surrounds (and K5 monopole back surrounds). I have an older,but superb, Arcam AV9 processor so I use my Oppo 93 for analogue decoding of HD soundtracks. It only has a single global crossover setting so it's always been a compromise. Recently I managed to find a used pair of PMC Wafer 1 wall mount speakers to replace the little K4s with and the Wafers go much deeper than the K4s (as well as being a much better tonal match for my front PMC speakers.

Anyway after all this changing round (and I moved the sub a bit and rerun the Antimode 8033 EQ) I tested various crossovers. Like Kiwi2 says I get better clarity and crispness using a higher crossover (100Hz in my case despite all the PMCs being rated to 40Hz) especially when listening at near reference level as I tend to when using my projector. However, I've also found that at lower listening levels when watching TV it does sound a bit too sterile, so I'm lucky that my Arcam AV9 has 5 presets which allow totally different crossovers, speaker levels and many other settings: I use an 80Hz crossover for regular TV listening (mostly Dolby Pro Logic IIx or DD IIx for those channels that broadcast in 5.1). For projector use I use a different preset in the AV9 with the 100Hz crossover. This is despite the low end response of my speakers (which are biamped with separate power amps too).

I'm sure some of my issue is that my centre speaker is too low which causes resonance with the oak floor, but the TV means it can't be raised. However, when using my projector the screen is a little higher, so I'm considering making a stand that can be raised for (more critical) projector viewing since it doesn't matter if the centre is in front of the TV screen then. I may be able to lower the (global) crossover a touch if I can fix this resonance issue with the centre, but given how clean it sounds around reference, I may just leave it set to 100Hz crossover anyway (plus I'm getting a bigger, but sealed, sub later this year as that is now my limiting factor at higher levels since it's only a 300 watt 12" ported sub).

After all these years of having AV gear (16 years and counting) I'm still tweaking, calibrating (and still learning). smile.gif
Edited by Kelvin1965S - 3/11/13 at 3:02pm
post #117 of 143
Thread Starter 
Kelvin I've noticed the same thing regarding volume level and crossover points, at lower volumes you can get away with a lower crossover and it sounds better that way but at reference level, an 80hz crossover is still a lot of bass for the fronts and I can tell a noticeable decline in midrange clarity. It'd be nice to have a dynamic crossover that switches it from 80 to 100 at a certain volume on your receiver, best of both worlds.
post #118 of 143

Agree with the volume/crossover discussion as well!

post #119 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post


Have you tried turning off the power to your subs and listening to your 120hz crossed over speakers by themselves yet?

Doing so would prove nothing is this case. People buys subwoofers in living room/HT set ups, because their speakers generally speaking, are not capable of outputting a full range of sound.
It is not reasonable to assume that someone will have the same settings on their amp or receiver WITH a sub as they would WITHOUT one. When you add a sub to an existing multi channel system, you should then adjust your sound settings accordingly to BLEND then subwoofer range with your speakers range. Playing one without the other at that point is meaningless.
post #120 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

Doing so would prove nothing is this case. People buys subwoofers in living room/HT set ups, because their speakers generally speaking, are not capable of outputting a full range of sound.

Tell that to Nightlord above!

Quote:
When you add a sub to an existing multi channel system, you should then adjust your sound settings accordingly to BLEND then subwoofer range with your speakers range. Playing one without the other at that point is meaningless.

I said to try that in the context of when we were talking about changing what was stereo to a mono sub output as in what happens with typical bass management on a AVR.

i.e. How could you have a dynamic soundstage if 120hz and below is turned to mono. Listening to your speakers by themselves with a certain crossover but without the subs powered up can be quite revealing.
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