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First time builder seeks build advice

post #1 of 59
11/2/12 at 11:35pm
Thread Starter 
Hello Community,

I'm hoping to build my first PC. It's possible, if not likely, that this will become a new hobby. I recently became a father and I'm trying to substitute old vices for new, more productive habits.

I've considered replacing our cable tv with an HTPC for a while, but I've always been hesitant because I like to watch sports (any suggestions about reliable sports streaming means would be appreciated also! I realize that a true substitution is impossible.) I'll be picking up NBA League pass for the $99/season - but NFL Sunday Ticket is criminally priced and I won't be purchasing that .

A few weeks ago our cable/internet provider terminated the somewhat tolerable "deal" we were getting. This confirmed my plan to cut the cord and transfer our ISP to a local-reseller.

So, my first PC is going to be an HTPC. At this time I'm probably one step, possibly two, above clueless.

I've been lurking around here as well as some other forums for the past month or so, crash-coursing myself in everything from "what is motherboard" to "what is RAID" to "how could choosing a computer case be such a complex decision." I've read a number of Assassin's guides but haven't yet purchased the package. I expect to do so when I get to the setup/software considerations.

I think I'm looking for either one of two things: a decent rig that can serve as a htpc/storage pc and hopefully allow for some gaming (COD is probably the most intense, I've also always wanted to check out LA Noire, and when GTA V comes out I'd really like to grab that) that I'll be able to upgrade over the years.

At the same time I need a new laptop. My 6 year old Dell Inspiron, to which I've made minor upgrades over the years, is literally falling apart now (but kudos to Dell). Between the two systems my budget is 1100-1300.

So, i could either buy a good HTPC/game rig for use on my plasma tv, and a cheapo laptop for browsing/work, or, build a cheaper HTPC and purchase a Y580 for laptop/games (I've considered Sager, also but my gut just doesn't trust it - and I'd like better battery life then they can seem to produce.).

I'll be purchasing a second tv within 2 years - would like the PC to serve both.

At this point I'm leaning against building a file server also. I'm looking for an all-in-one.

I'd like to hook up HDHomerun (for OTA sports), but I believe that I'd need an antenna for my roof. This is not feasible until June 2013, so I suppose this is a future interest.

I have 7.1 surround with an Onkyo receiver and many HDMI in. I'd like to run everything through that and out to my tv. I learned from assassin that I'd like to bitstream audio into the AVR, even though I'm not sure what that means yet, entirely.
- currently I'm just running a 5.1 setup so 7.1 is not required. 7.1 will occur in Jun 2013, when we move out of our apartment into a bigger house.

I have a ps3.

Sorry for yammering on.

[\Tentatively I've put together the following. It's a bit over my budget for a decent HTPC because it only leaves about 400 for the lappy, Any advice or feedback would be appreciated. Praise it, hate, rip it apart, give it a golden shower, all comments are welcomed and appreciated.

CPU Intel Core i3-3225 3.3GHz Dual-Core $119.99


CPU Cooler Scythe BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B 45.5 CFM Sleeve Bearing $29.99

Not sure if this is really necessary.

Motherboard ASRock H77 Pro4-M Micro ATX LGA1155 $104.99

Memory G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 $34.99


Storage
Crucial M4 128GB 2.5" SSD $99.79

Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM $139.99

I'd like to add more capacity over the years. I have a lot of stuff on various external hdd's which sound like they're dying. I realize that I don't need the 7200 RPM, but the HDD seems to be best bang for buck.I can get same drive 5400 RPM for the exact same price, so I figure I may as well get the 7200. Is the extra power consumption/noise enough to prefer the 5400?

Case Silverstone SST-PS07B MicroATX Mini Tower $78.99

This has been the toughest and most confusing choice of all. I chose a tower because I think it might benefit someone new to the field, and may allow more/better upgrades over time. I really like the idea of a true HTPC case though.

Alternatively I've been thinking SILVERSTONE Grandia Series GD05B-USB3.0 - which is about $30 more expensive. - 109.99

Power Supply PC Power & Cooling 400W ATX12V $39.88

Optical Drive Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer $69.98

Operating System Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (64-bit) $96.99

This is OEM, which makes to believe that I need a mobo that I want to keep.

Keyboard Logitech K400 w/Touchpad $40.99

Total price: $856.57

Is this at all reasonable for an HTPC that can play non-intensive games and is upgradeable in the future? It's more than I'd like to spend.

There's no need for a sound card, correct?

Is it true that I'd need a rooftop antenna to get OTA tv via HDHomerun? I'd really like to add this at some point.

Thanks kindly in advance for all of your/anyone's help!
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post #2 of 59
11/3/12 at 6:22am
VERY nice build list .

I would make a suggestion

1) Toss the Seabiscut 3tb drive and get a Western digital . About $20 more but a much better drive . You do not need the extra heat and noise of 7200 rpm drive . Stick with 5400.
2) I would not purchase the Shruken just yet . The stock cooler that comes with the cpu works fine . This is where you can save that extra $ for the Hdd in item # 1
3) You don't need to wait to purchase Assassins guides . There is a lot more in those than just software guidance AND you may want to get a head start on reading up .
4) I used a tower for my first htpc and hated it. Wife gave me continuous crap about how it looked . I would go with one of the Silverstone modles . The one u posted is VERY nice (GD05B) and the 08B is killer as well .
5) If your going to game heavy , yes, COD is heavy by htpc standards then you will need a discrete vid card.

As far as cable co. sports packages and the other "stuff" . I use a Ceton Infinity 4 pci-e tv tuner card with a cable card and tuning adapter from Time Warner . Gets me away from a set top box but not a complete cut of the cord . Keep in mind that cable cards are a "one way" transmission so no on demand services will be available. A complete cut of the cord is a whole new way of life so you better be prepared.
Edited by flocko - 11/3/12 at 6:28am
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post #3 of 59
11/3/12 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumourmill View Post

Hello Community,
CPU Intel Core i3-3225 3.3GHz Dual-Core $119.99
CPU Cooler Scythe BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B 45.5 CFM Sleeve Bearing $29.99
Motherboard ASRock H77 Pro4-M Micro ATX LGA1155 $104.99
Memory G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 $34.99
Crucial M4 128GB 2.5" SSD $99.79
Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM $139.99
Operating System Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (64-bit) $96.99


Couple things:

First- The CPU. Nice choice but you can find i3's for $80-$100. You can also get the Microcenter combo of the i5 3570k+ that motherboard your looking at for $50 off. Basically making the 3570k i5 CPU $169-50=$119. Same price your paying for the i3. The i5 is better at the same price.

I'd look for a sub $100ish i3 or just go with the i5 for the same money. I bought the Asrock Z77 motherboard that was $89 at Microcenter and got the $50 off for my HTPC. You can save a bit with a Z77 Asrock PRO 3 motherboard. I'd get that plus the i5 CPU for the same money or less if possible.


Next- You probably do no need a CPU cooler. The stock intel cooler is very good and very quiet. Only time I would recommend replacing it - would be if you needed a fanless or a very small build. For HTPC it will cool perfectly and make no noise. Unless your overclocking you don't need a CPU upgrade. (Note I did not pay attention to your case or if there was a fit issue. I just wanted to stress that the Intel cooler is enough from a cooling and quiet standpoint)


The motherboard- Why do you think you need the PRO 4 for $105 INSTEAD OF the PRO 3 for $89 ? I doubt you do. Save the $15 and use that to get 8GB DDR3 1600mhz instead.

That bring me to my next personal choice- 8GB over 4GB. For $15 here I think it future proofs and adds more performance for the same cost as the $15 on the PRO4 board. Step down on the motherboard and double your RAM.

Your HDD Seagate is a very nice choice. 3TB Seagate drive is awesome. I have a few of them. Quiet, fast, reliable and power efficient. I use them in my server. I'd buy more and recommend for sure. Nice choice !!!


Your SSD I disagree: I would not buy that Crucial M4 128GB SSD unless you held a gun to my head. The Samsung 830 is generally a better performer and better choice- for a lower cost.



I saw this this week at Newegg. I've seen it this week on Amazon for $79 too. Much better than the older/slower Crucial. Samsung is considered rock solid in reliability.

Here is a good link to the OCTOBER SSD BUYERS GUIDE:


http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-recommendation-benchmark,3269-3.html

Right now the best options for non Sandforce controller drives are SAMSUNG / PLEXTOR / VERTEX4 > Crucial. Your talking about the same cost- but the crucial is at the bottom of the performance and reliability.

Otherwise look for a beasty Toggle NAND Sandforce controller like the Mushkin Deluxe they like for a bit cheaper. Those are great drives too.

The Crucial is getting long in the tooth- it's been around 18 months and today I think there is better options. Most of the recommendations your going to see for that drive are based on owners defending purchase decision, and people just partial to that drive. It's has an odd cult following that propagandizes that drive.
Personally I hate it.

Here is the SSD buyers guide that is older from summer time: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/buy-ssd-recommendation,3255-3.html

In July it was said:
Quote:
We know that SSDs based on SandForce's DuraClass technology demonstrate different behavior depending on the information with which they're presented. That is to say incompressible data like media-oriented files and actively-encrypted partitions aren't handled as elegantly as more easily compressible files.

In contrast, the behavior of Samsung's controller doesn't change based on the information you feed it, and the 830-series drives are arguably the fastest MLC-based offerings available, generally outpacing Crucial's m4. Interestingly, the 830 and m4 are priced comparably, too, making Samsung's SSD the better deal.

nothing has changed between the Samsung 830 and the Crucial M4 since July- and the Samsung was the better choice then and still is now. Especially at the $70-$80 price point you can grab it now.

Otherwise- The newer better Plextor and the firmware updated VERTEX4 feature better optimized Marvel controllers (Like the Crucial uses but better) that best it in performance for about the same cost.

And,

Very last you can simply download the windows 7 ISO and install it. Buy a keycode. It's cheaper and easier than buying a retail copy of windows.

If you need a link just ask. It's perfectly legal. just register it with MS over the phone.
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post #4 of 59
11/3/12 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

VERY nice build list .
I would make a suggestion
1) Toss the Seabiscut 3tb drive and get a Western digital . About $20 more but a much better drive.

This is wrong. I own both. No significant difference in heat or noise. The Seagate is faster and more reliable. I have a few of these seagates and they work great. I RMA my 3TB green WD and I am on my second one. I've RMA a few GREEN WD drives this year. Probably 5. Not sure my experience would translate directly to you. But- for certain the Seagate 3TB boasts a better performance level and the difference in electricity between the two is insignificant IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

VERY
3) You don't need to wait to purchase Assassins guides . There is a lot more in those than just software guidance AND you may want to get a head start on reading up.

Agree. The more you know now before you purchase the better your purchase and maximize your dollars spend on hardware with intelligent choices the first time. Preventing returns and upgrades.
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post #5 of 59
11/4/12 at 1:55am
Thread Starter 
I appreciate both of your thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Couple things:
First- The CPU. Nice choice but you can find i3's for $80-$100. You can also get the Microcenter combo of the i5 3570k+ that motherboard your looking at for $50 off. Basically making the 3570k i5 CPU $169-50=$119. Same price your paying for the i3. The i5 is better at the same price.
I'd look for a sub $100ish i3 or just go with the i5 for the same money.

That Microcenter deal is good. I'm in Vancouver, Canada though, and Microcenter won't ship here. For US sites that do, shipping costs are generwlly prohibitive. So I'm confined to Canadian retailers and I don't expect many of you to have a finger on the pulse of those prices.

No such combo deal exists here with the 3570k. The cheapest I can get that CPU alone is $210.
Nor can I seem to find any i3s for less than $100 in Canada.

I chose the i3-3225 primarily for the Intel 4000 graphics, hoping that it would allow me to play some games, and for the (perhaps unnecessary?) performance bump allowing me to stream to two tvs and download in the background.
The 3225 seems to be marginally more expensive than a 2nd gen i3. The difference isn't $40-50 like it seems to be in the US, more like $15-$25 more expensive than a 2100. The 3225 seems to be the best deal in my circumstances, for anything mid-tier or above. I will continue to search around though.

An alternative would be to go Celeron/G540,but that would be a different (budget) build entirely. This is indeed an option. I saw your thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1404685/cheapest-ever-htpc-thats-decent-proud-of-myself and I've been considering something similar, myself.

If anyone cares: why do Canadians pay so much more for the same product in US?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Years ago the Canadian dollar was valued low because we were (and in large part still are) an export-based economy. A low CDN $ is good for exporting because it's attractive to those who buy/import raw materials. In 2004 the CDN$ was probably valued at about .55 to $1USD. North American retailers implemented a two tiered price system in response. CDN prices were inflated by as much as 40% to make up for the difference in currency value.

Since 07/08 global recession the value of the CDN $ has increased, mainly on the strength of a strong housing market and a bullet-proof banking system. These are low-risk investments and became attractive at a time when global markets became uncertain. An influx of investment money caused the $CDN to be at or near par, or exceed $USD, daily, since. The two tiered inflated price system still exists, however, so we pay more dollars for the same products with equal or more valuable currency. In effect this is an unjustifiable tax imposed by retailers, and amounts to gouging.

That this has gone on for 5+ years is ridiculous.

Yes..Bitter.
Quote:
Next- You probably do no need a CPU cooler. The stock intel cooler is very good and very quiet.

Thanks. Removed
Quote:
The motherboard- Why do you think you need the PRO 4 for $105 INSTEAD OF the PRO 3 for $89 ? I doubt you do. Save the $15 and use that to get 8GB DDR3 1600mhz instead.
That bring me to my next personal choice- 8GB over 4GB. For $15 here I think it future proofs and adds more performance for the same cost as the $15 on the PRO4 board. Step down on the motherboard and double your RAM.

Totally agree on the 8 gb, and thanks for the heads up on the Pro 3. It turns out that price matching the H77 works out to $2 more than the B75 (I have to pay $10shipping for the 79.99 B75 - but can pick up the H77 locally for $92 with $0 shipping), so I think I'll keep the Pro 4 for the $2. I realize now that there's not much of a difference between the two (for my uses). If not for the shipping cost I'd have gone with the Pro 3 on your advice.
Quote:
Your HDD Seagate is a very nice choice. 3TB Seagate drive is awesome. I have a few of them. Quiet, fast, reliable and power efficient. I use them in my server. I'd buy more and recommend for sure.

Thanks, it seems that Seagate/WD is kind of a Coke/Pepsi kind of thing. Being new to this I don't have a preference for either.

I've been told by others to ditch the 7200 RPM and get the same drive at 5400 RPM for power and heat considerations. In your opinion, does this ring true if the prices are the same? My understanding is that these 7200 drives are new models and improved in many respects, and better HDDs overall. If same price I feel like I should go with this drive over the older model at 5400 RPM.
Quote:
Your SSD I disagree: I would not buy that Crucial M4 128GB SSD unless you held a gun to my head. The Samsung 830 is generally a better performer and better choice- for a lower cost.
Samsung is considered rock solid in reliability.

I've seen a number of threads in which you've expressed a passionate hate for M4s. I bought one for my wife's laptop in the summer and we've had no issues.

But, your complete disdain has convinced me. I'm ditching the M4 now and forever, solely on the basis of your sheer hatred for them. You appear wholly credible and are far more knowledgeable than I, so I'm just going to follow you on this.

The Samsung deals that you pointed out are not available here, but I can get the 830 for the same price as the M4.

The Vertex 4 is available but $4 more than the 830. Is there any reason to do that?
Quote:
Very last you can simply download the windows 7 ISO and install it. Buy a keycode. It's cheaper and easier than buying a retail copy of windows.
If you need a link just ask. It's perfectly legal. just register it with MS over the phone.

I already have a win7 on a bootable USB so this would be helpful. I would love to know how to get a key.

I appreciate all of your insight. I've tweaked a bit and have a slightly varied build below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko 
4) I used a tower for my first htpc and hated it. Wife gave me continuous crap about how it looked . I would go with one of the Silverstone modles . The one u posted is VERY nice (GD05B) and the 08B is killer as well .
5) If your going to game heavy , yes, COD is heavy by htpc standards then you will need a discrete vid card.

As far as cable co. sports packages and the other "stuff" . I use a Ceton Infinity 4 pci-e tv tuner card with a cable card and tuning adapter from Time Warner . Gets me away from a set top box but not a complete cut of the cord . Keep in mind that cable cards are a "one way" transmission so no on demand services will be available. A complete cut of the cord is a whole new way of life so you better be prepared.

I decided to go with the Silverstone. Thanks.

I (blindly) hoped that Intel 4000 would handle COD. I see that that's not true . It's not a priority at this time, but I guess I'll keep an eye out for GPU deals over the coming weeks. Thanks.

If I need dedicated graphics, does that make the 3225 redundant?

Where I live, options seem to be "very expensive cable" or "no cable at all", so a tuner card doesn't seem to be viable. I'm interested in learning more about OTA later on, though.

I've revised the build
I've made some changes based on comments here and some other forums. I scrapping the Blue-Ray player. I have a pS3 for the time being so I can wait for a screaming deal on a BRD.

Prices are a bit lower than previous because my local merchant matches (Canadian) competitor prices + 25% of the difference (PM prices won't show up in the links provided).

Intel Core i3 3225 Dual Core Hyperthreading Processor LGA1155 3.3GHZ Ivy Bridge 3MB Retail Box - $129.99
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=75430&promoid=1016

AsRock H77Pro 4 M w/ DDR3, 7.1 Audio, Gigabit Lan, CrossFireX / SLI - $92.41
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX39287

G.SKILLRipjaws X Series 8GB PC3-12800 Dual Channel DDR3 Kit (2 x 4GB) - $33.74
]http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX33234

Samsung 830 Series SATA III Solid State Drive, 128GB - $96.58 (Alternatively Vertex 4 for 101.24)
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX42355

Seagate 3TB Barracuda 7200rpm SATA III w/ 64MB Cache - $127.49
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX36849

Silverstone GD05B HTPC Case w/ USB 3.0, Black - $93.47
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX40765

Logitech K400 Wireless Touch Keyboard - $38.47
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX36609

Asus DRW-24B1ST 24x DVD-RW Drive, SATA, Black, OEM - $16.24
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX27707

PC Power and Cooling Silencer Mk III 400W Power Supply - $33.53
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX37751

$641.92
$721.35 after taxes (argh!).

Total $721.35

I still need an OS.

Alternatively I'm thinking of scrapping gaming potential and going with something more in tune with a "true" HTPC (Celeron based / around $400) and picking up a Y580 for laptop/gaming needs. I'm still looking into piecing together the latter.

If I do need a dedicated GPU for this machine to make it reasonably game worthy, is it wise to scrap the above CPU altogether, and look for something less powerful/ cheaper, and add a $100-$150 GPU instead?
ie - intel GTX 650 TI 1 GB.GDDR5 was just priced at $112.00, although that deal is over. Maybe pair with a $40 Celeron?

If I do pick up a mid-tier GPU at some point - is the 400W PSU above sufficient?

Thanks again to both of you.
Edited by Rumourmill - 11/4/12 at 2:34am
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post #6 of 59
11/4/12 at 3:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

This is wrong. I own both. No significant difference in heat or noise. The Seagate is faster and more reliable. I have a few of these seagates and they work great. I RMA my 3TB green WD and I am on my second one. I've RMA a few GREEN WD drives this year. Probably 5. Not sure my experience would translate directly to you. But- for certain the Seagate 3TB boasts a better performance level and the difference in electricity between the two is insignificant IMO.
Agree. The more you know now before you purchase the better your purchase and maximize your dollars spend on hardware with intelligent choices the first time. Preventing returns and upgrades.

According to a Toms 2010 review of the major hard drive vendors , Seagate had the highest failure rate per market share @ 35% .

Just because you own it does not make me wrong
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post #7 of 59
11/4/12 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumourmill View Post

I appreciate both of your thoughts.
That Microcenter deal is good. I'm in Vancouver, Canada though, and Microcenter won't ship here. For US sites that do, shipping costs are generwlly prohibitive. So I'm confined to Canadian retailers and I don't expect many of you to have a finger on the pulse of those prices.
No such combo deal exists here with the 3570k. The cheapest I can get that CPU alone is $210.
Nor can I seem to find any i3s for less than $100 in Canada.
Totally agree on the 8 gb, and thanks for the heads up on the Pro 3. It turns out that price matching the H77 works out to $2 more than the B75 (I have to pay $10shipping for the 79.99 B75 - but can pick up the H77 locally for $92 with $0 shipping), so I think I'll keep the Pro 4 for the $2. I realize now that there's not much of a difference between the two (for my uses). If not for the shipping cost I'd have gone with the Pro 3 on your advice.

I was actually talking about the Z77 PRO 3 that I grabbed for $89 with my 3570k.
I did not realize about the Canadian prices- and thus I retract my CPU comments too.
i3 is fine- just get the best deal you can find. Weight the prices vs i5 or Pentium level and decide where your spot is. Any of them will work great. I was talking more from a value based on my prices, and the results and opinions changes for your prices. You seem like you have a good grasp so you'll do fine with what your working with.
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post #8 of 59
11/4/12 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

According to a Toms 2010 review of the major hard drive vendors , Seagate had the highest failure rate per market share @ 35% .
Just because you own it does not make me wrong

They don't even make those drives anymore so not sure how good or valid that statement is.

Send me a link- I'd like to read it.

I saw once from a major IT data center based on thousands of units that Hitachi was the most reliable and lowest failure BTW..
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post #9 of 59
11/4/12 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumourmill View Post

Thanks, it seems that Seagate/WD is kind of a Coke/Pepsi kind of thing. Being new to this I don't have a preference for either.
Right. Hitachi, WD or Seagate are perfectly fine. The Seagate 3TB in particular is currently a great value and performer and it's been selling well for a while with good feeback.
But Nothing wrong with a WD 3TB or a Hitachi HDD too.. grab what you find a good deal on for capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumourmill View Post


I've been told by others to ditch the 7200 RPM and get the same drive at 5400 RPM for power and heat considerations. In your opinion, does this ring true if the prices are the same? My understanding is that these 7200 drives are new models and improved in many respects, and better HDDs overall. If same price I feel like I should go with this drive over the older model at 5400 RPM.
5400RPM or "green" is perfectly fine for a HTPC. The performance is enough. It's slower than a 7200RPM and save a bit of energy. But at the same time 7200RPM is not that loud or get that hot. Nor does it use much electricity. So I tend to think the whole thing is a wash. It's probably going to come down to what you personally value most- and what is available to you for the best price.
I tend to be a performance guy- and non of the storage drives are located in my HTPC so that negates the noise factor. I prefer the 7200RPM Seagates these days because they are faster and cheaper- and I have had better luck with them than the WD greens personally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumourmill View Post

I've seen a number of threads in which you've expressed a passionate hate for M4s. I bought one for my wife's laptop in the summer and we've had no issues.
But, your complete disdain has convinced me. I'm ditching the M4 now and forever, solely on the basis of your sheer hatred for them. You appear wholly credible and are far more knowledgeable than I, so I'm just going to follow you on this.
The Samsung deals that you pointed out are not available here, but I can get the 830 for the same price as the M4.
The Vertex 4 is available but $4 more than the 830. Is there any reason to do that?

The crucial is a popular option but the propaganda around that drive has always existing. I just don't buy it as it's not the best performer or the most reliable- which is the two major points people argue in favor of it. I just think it's generally wrong on both counts.
I would indeed recommend the VERTEX4 and the SAMSUNG830 over it. Both offer better performance for about the same price. In the case of the VERTEX4 you get a 5 year warranty too, two years more than Crucial. They are both recommended. Your final available price will determine your choice but neither is wrong. Technically VERTEX4 has best performance and warranty, but the reputation of SAMSUNG probably evens the playing field a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumourmill View Post

I already have a win7 on a bootable USB so this would be helpful. I would love to know how to get a key.
Just call Microsoft smile.gif It's cheaper than auto online activation but you can of coarse pay for a key when it prompts you to register it. It's not hard- it's basically automatic.
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post #10 of 59
11/7/12 at 3:55pm
Any updates OP ?
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post #11 of 59
11/7/12 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

They don't even make those drives anymore so not sure how good or valid that statement is.
Send me a link- I'd like to read it.
I saw once from a major IT data center based on thousands of units that Hitachi was the most reliable and lowest failure BTW..

I will assume your google works just as well as mine rolleyes.gif

Yep , Hitachi was #1 in least failed drives and Seagate was the worst . Again , that is per market share. To be completely fair to Seagate

HDD studies have to be somewhat old in there results . How long would you like them to collect the data ? A couple days !! I don't think so .

Real life studies of today's hdds would not be realistic for a couple more years .
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post #12 of 59
11/7/12 at 4:31pm
Arguing performance between modern ssds for the htpc platform is a completely useless exercise. You won't notice a bit of difference and they all have excellent performance.

That is, of course, assuming none of them fail. In that case you will notice a big difference between the failed and working drive.
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post #13 of 59
11/7/12 at 4:45pm
Well considering the 3TB Seagate is a totally different design and platter configuration as well as board and even case... I just question how valuable that data your presenting is - and how relevant it would matter to a drive purchased today.

Personally I just tend to think they are all about the same and your individual luck matters more than reliability of one brand versus another brand.

I might be unique but I tend to think they are good. I've owned multiple drives from Hitachi and WD and Seagate and don't feel any of them is superior to others. I think they are all generally pretty good and would expect any of the three brands to perform well and remain reliable for reasonable life expectancy.

Thus I disvalue statements like the one you made in favor of other information I feel is much more important to my buying decision. Specifically the price to performance to capacity ratio. I'm looking for value, and a nice blend of performance size and capacity when I buy a storage drive. I don't expect any of them to fail or last longer based on brand.

My last two purchases have been 3TB Seagates. They are fast, big capacity and cheap.
Prior it was 2TB hitachi and WD green. I have all three currently active and working great.

The point I try to make is using information about reliability of a brand or a model that's not specifically the exact model I'm buying seems foolish. It seems as reasonably likely that the reliability of a totally new HDD design with different platter design, capacity, and build design would be different than a previous model from same MFG as if would be likely to be the same.

Not saying the information your providing might not be true and accurate; I'm just explaining in my own personal buying decision process I throw it out like irrelevant garbage.

Buying decisions made on this kind of info or made from "fear" are just a mistake. There is just much better more immediately appropriate information to use in a purchase decision. Specifically : warranty, power consumption, heat, noise, performance, capacity, and price.
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post #14 of 59
11/7/12 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Arguing performance between modern ssds for the htpc platform is a completely useless exercise. You won't notice a bit of difference and they all have excellent performance.
That is, of course, assuming none of them fail. In that case you will notice a big difference between the failed and working drive.

It's far more stupid to consider or allow irrelevant reliability data or "fear" to sway or change a decision based on performance/price/capacity.

Keep in mind performance just isn't speed. It's heat and noise performance. It's also energy consumption performance.

Your argument sounds good at first until someone realizes they simply can not predict the reliability of any single unit they purchase on an individual user level with any reasonable accuracy. Then - once this is realized it simply does not hold water.

You can't predict reliability. Period. Stop.

If anyone ever wants to bet I'll happily play the house and take house odds that any brand HDD will work as expected. I'll payout for failures. Any takers ?

WD or hitachi or Seagate it don't really matter.

Buy on the other factors important to you. Don't bother trying to pretend you can control something you can't.
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post #15 of 59
11/7/12 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

It's far more stupid to consider or allow irrelevant reliability data or "fear" to sway or change a decision based on performance/price/capacity.
Keep in mind performance just isn't speed. It's heat and noise performance. It's also energy consumption performance.
Your argument sounds good at first until someone realizes they simply can not predict the reliability of any single unit they purchase on an individual user level with any reasonable accuracy. Then - once this is realized it simply does not hold water.
You can't predict reliability. Period. Stop.
If anyone ever wants to bet I'll happily play the house and take house odds that any brand HDD will work as expected. I'll payout for failures. Any takers ?
WD or hitachi or Seagate it don't really matter.
Buy on the other factors important to you. Don't bother trying to pretend you can control something you can't.

What?

Heat and noise with a SSD?

I think you need to slow down and read before you post. BTW there are numerous people that post on here (and elsewhere) about their failures with a certain brand of SSD. But I can't for the life of me remember even a single recent post discussing a Intel, Samsung or (gasp) Crucial SSD failure lately.
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post #16 of 59
11/7/12 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Heat and noise with a SSD?
From where I sit, my SSD sounds like a 747 taking off in China. biggrin.gif
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post #17 of 59
11/7/12 at 5:11pm
@Assasin. My previous two posts were about HDD and Seagate vs others like Hitachi or WD.

It was reaction to talk about Seagate being less reliable.

I just realized you made mention of SSD specifically.

I'd prob stil stick with everything I just said with SSD too unless someone can show me my error in doing so.

While I agree brand a vs brand b is not a very noticeable difference most of time I'd stil consider the price to performance to capacity ratio over bogus reliability concerns.
Not saying reliability isn't important. It is.

I'm saying I look at hard facts like the term of warranty first.

If you could point to a solid piece of reliability data suggesting the specific model I'm buying is less reliable than another like option that would sway my decision for sure.

But I think in most conversations regarding such topics it's more opinion than fact and there ialways seems to be a lot of "reaching" to draw a conclusion based on someone's own personal individual brand preference. It's fine to like a brand but don't propagandize towards others .

Propaganda advice over performance /value gets under my skin. Always has and always will.
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post #18 of 59
11/7/12 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

If you could point to a solid piece of reliability data suggesting the specific model I'm buying is less reliable than another like option that would sway my decision for sure.

I have already done that for you in the past.
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post #19 of 59
11/7/12 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

From where I sit, my SSD sounds like a 747 taking off in China. biggrin.gif

Your not following along either.

My comments were about the Seagate less reliable study mentioned previously.

Assasin just switched direction back to SSD.

But same theory holds true minus heat and noise. In SSD I'd consider performance to be more speed oriented like read or write speed
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post #20 of 59
11/7/12 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Your not following along either.
My comments were about the Seagate less reliable study mentioned previously.
Assasin just switched direction back to SSD.
But same theory holds true minus heat and noise. In SSD I'd consider performance to be more speed oriented like read or write speed

You quoted me where I specifically mentioned a SSD. That's what the "quote" button is used for. It keeps things in context and let's readers know that you are responding to a specific statement or group of statements.

Post #9 (2 above my initial post) mention and compare SSDs. So I didn't "switch direction" at all.
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post #21 of 59
11/7/12 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I have already done that for you in the past.

Curious what storage HDD would you buy right now ?

Seagate vs hitachi vs WD

7200 vs 5400 ?

would you spend $20 more for a WD over a Seagate ?
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post #22 of 59
11/7/12 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

You quoted me where I specifically mentioned a SSD. That's what the "quote" button is used for. It keeps things in context and let's readers know that you are responding to a specific statement or group of statements.
Post #9 (2 above my initial post) mention and compare SSDs. So I didn't "switch direction" at all.

I'm on my phone .. Lol. It's hard to get it all in sometimes.

Your right. I just missed the SSD part the first time which is why I made the mention of that in the next post when I realized it.

I'm acknowledging its my error and your right.

But I'm not certain the same conversation can't not be relevant if I switch from HDD to SSD as most of the purchase decision factors remain.

Price and size/capacity as well as performance are nonetheless relevant factors.

Only the heat and noise might be less appropriate. The rest remains same and true.
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post #23 of 59
11/7/12 at 8:02pm
@rumourmill - check Canada Computers for your gear. I often find them much cheaper than newegg and microcenter. Not sure why something is actually cheaper in Canada, but I will take it!
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post #24 of 59
11/7/12 at 11:32pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone.

Halfordb - I agree that CC is a great site. I generally use it to price match at Memoryexpress.com which will beat 25% of difference and is local so I can pickup w/o shipping. Thanks.

For the above discussion about HDDs - I don't know if the following links are reliable or helpful, but I came across these when researching HDDs myself:

2011 http://www.behardware.com/articles/843-6/components-returns-rates-5.html

2012 http://www.behardware.com/articles/862-6/components-returns-rates-6.html

I don't think there's any reliable way to track defects in consumer goods. This site uses return rates for data, which in reality don't often correlate with, let alone define, the volume of defects for consumer goods, but maybe some generalizations can be drawn.

There are significant differences on a model by model basis. One of Seagate's models is the most returned model.

On a brand by brand basis, we're talking about fractions of a percentage to differentiate brands (except Hitachi). Given the many, many variables that are inherent to the type of data that this study uses (ie price), in addition the sheer number of products that are produced by each company annually, the only generalization that can be drawn (in my opinion) is that between 1-2% of HDDs are returned regardless of brands (although Hitachi does seem to sit on its own). There's simply no way to determine whether a disproportionate number of returns are due to defect.

If there was say, a 5% difference in rates between brands, then I'd agree that maybe some inferences could be made. But with these numbers, I'd tend to agree with the earlier statement that model, rather than brand, ought to be the focus when discussing reliability and quality of the product.

Again, I have no idea how reputable the above site or its data, is.

____________________________________


As for the HTPC, I've decided to scrap the gaming aspect. I was excited by the prospect of building a machine that could do everything: watch tv, play music, play games, do the laundry etc. I bet all folks new to the field make a similar mistake. In reality, gaming is a low priority for me. I rarely play them and I already have a PS3 that collects dust. With this in mind I'm aiming for something that is more in line with my very basic needs, being:

Play music from HDD
Play movies from my HDD
(these go into my AVR and out to tv via HDMI)
Stream sports over the internet (Youtube too - thinking about scrapping Netflix)
Download torrents, preferably in the background to all of the above

I have a 7.1 audio setup and a lowly single 720p plasma tv (I'd like to upgrade this - being a reason not to go all-out on the HTPC cost right now)

I've purchased and reviewed Assassin's guides and they have been helpful.

I'm still not entirely sure what this machine is required to do though. One thing I'm confused about is when transcoding occurs, which I understand would impact my processor choice. I understand the definition of transcoding, but I'm not entirely clear when it actually happens.

All of my physical media has already been ripped. I'm pretty sure that everything I'll be downloading just gets sent to my AVR/tv as is (ie mpeg 2 / 4 / avi / mkv). All music is in mp3.

I'm not sure if the fact that my tv is 720p is important (1: if I download a 1080p tv show, does my pc need to transcode the file into 720p?), or if streaming sports from sites such as justin.tv is important, and whether on these grounds I need to concer myself about transcoding and powerful processors. I don't think so, but I've become confused by the number of conflicting things that I've read.

I won't have a cable card or the like, but at some point I'd like to receive OTA via HD Homerun. This will occur in the future and is not a priority right now. Not sure if this is relevant.

I'm wondering if I can get by with an SB Pentium processor for a while - a G840 is about $65 cheaper than the cheapest i3. Does this seem feasible in light of my (very basic) needs above?

Id like to improve the system over time. Eventually I'll purchase tablets, second tv etc. which may require HTPC upgrades, but right now my HTPC needs are in reality quite basic

Any thoughts about this would be appreciated. I really appreciate all of the insights about my last build idea, also, and I've learned a lot through these.

Like everyone else, I'm also waiting to see what kind of deals become available after (US) Thanksgiving. I might purchase an HDD and SSD this week though as there are some pretty good deals that expire on the 9th. The G840 is on sale right now, too.
Edited by Rumourmill - 11/7/12 at 11:40pm
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post #25 of 59
11/8/12 at 5:32am
Nice build OP. However, you won't be able to play COD and GTA V with decent settings with only an i3. You'd be better off downgrading the processor to a cheaper sandybridge i3 and adding a discrete video card. AMD Radeon 7750 may be a good choice as its single slot and runs cool. The sapphire one is $85 after rebate on the egg.
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post #26 of 59
11/8/12 at 9:49am
Yes the 860 is fine for cheaper than i3
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post #27 of 59
11/8/12 at 10:24am
This page is particularly interesting...

http://www.behardware.com/articles/862-7/components-returns-rates-6.html
Quote:
SSDs


- Crucial 0.82% (as against 0.8%)
- Intel 1.73% (as against 0.1%)
- Corsair 2.93% (as against 2.9%)
- OCZ 7.03% (as against 4.2%)

Crucial has taken top spot from Intel thanks to a notable increase in Intel’s returns rate. We should say that this time, the Intel sample is only just above the minimum required and that some of the Intel returns are linked to the 8MB bug which has since been resolved. The OCZ rate has got a lot worse, going up to 7%, and only OCZ has models with rates of above 5%:

- 15.58% OCZ Vertex 2 Series SSD 240 GB
- 13.28% OCZ Vertex 2 Series SSD 160 GB
- 11.76% OCZ Vertex 2 Series SSD 80 GB
- 9.52% OCZ Vertex 2 Series SSD 120 GB
- 8.57% OCZ Vertex 3 Series 120 GB
- 7.49% OCZ Vertex 2 Series SSD 60 GB
- 6.61% OCZ Vertex 2 Series 3.5" SSD 120 GB
- 6.37% OCZ Vertex 3 Series 240 GB
- 6.37% OCZ Agility 3 60 GB
- 5.89% OCZ Vertex 2 Series SSD 100 GB

The Vertex 2s have the worst scores but the Vertex 3s have nothing to be proud of either. Note that over the coming period, the Vertex 3s are doing much better thanks to developments in the firmware, with a rate of just 1.01% for the Vertex 3 120 GB as things stand.
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post #28 of 59
11/8/12 at 12:27pm
Gaming is the problem. Your build is fine for the rest BUT games next year will need quad's - even Far Cry 3 this year recommends a modern quad (and rather ironically, a 2600K to boot). That and the fact that GTA 5 may be a pig like 4 on PC, means you need more grunt:

- i5 3470
- Gigabyte H77M-D3H
- Any 8GB DDR3 1600MHz kit (CAS 9 or lower)
- Nvidia GTX 670/680

I don't recommend or buy overclocking parts or overclock anymore - "K" CPU's and Z77 boards, as I can't be bothered, and that H77 has virtually all the slots and ports you could possibly want.

That would all run hot in a mATX case, so if you want gaming build in a mid tower like a HAF XM.
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post #29 of 59
11/8/12 at 2:48pm
@asassin

Totally old data that while even if true then has no relevancy on individual experience today.

I'm not sure that data your quoting would or should cause any reasonably intelligent person to choose a crucial over a faster cheaper Samsung 830 or a faster cheaper new firmware Vertex3/vertex4.

You do know the vertex 4 isn't just cheaper and faster than the crucial but it has same sourced NAND and controller inside ?

Logic tells me the reliability is going to be about the same so I'll happily take the faster and cheaper vertex4.

That's why it's recommended as top pick at tomshardware SSD buyers guide. And previous to that it was the Samsung830. Both are reccomended over the crucial for all the reasons I have been listing. Performance and price are both superior.

any reason to choose the crucial is propaganda IMO. If you don't trust OCZ fine... Get a Samsung or plextor or muskin... all still better choices.

The myth crucial is somehow more reliable must die now. It's bogus.

That study your quoting is old and prior to the discovery of a firmware glitch in the Crucial that caused 100% of m4's to blue screen of death error (BSOD) about every hour after aprox 4920 hours use. I wonder how the data changed when the crucial a starting hitting that mark and the Vertex 3's recieved the all new firmware. I bet any study after that shows a different result.

I'll stick with my original argument ... Reliability can't be predicted or controlled and if anyone lets "fear" make a decision that doesn't lead to a better performing or better priced/value SSD drive they are probably a fool.
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post #30 of 59
11/8/12 at 3:03pm
That's one. Then there's the other one I posted months ago from Europe on the different manufacturers.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420361/interesting-ssd-reliability-study

You can choose to use what you want when picking parts.

Feel free to post a counter argument that is at least somewhat objective as I would love to read it.

BTW you continue to point out the firmware issue on the Crucial. Big whoop. A simple update and it was fixed and no data was ever lost. OCZ, Intel, Samsung, etc ALL have firmware issues and bugs from time to time.

http://www.ocztechnology.com/ssdzone/ssd-faqs.html
Quote:
Why do I need to update the firmware on my drive?
OCZ releases bug fixes, performance enhancements, and other important updates via new firmware releases that are directly available for end-users. Updating to the latest supported firmware will help ensure your OCZ SSD is able to operate at peak performance and stability.
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